Trans eligibility rules for girls sports.

[dad4]

There are actually 3 groups here that have to be analyzed separately: preteens, adolescents, and adults. The rules for each will be different. The hardest case is the adolescents. They shouldn't be conflated with adults, because we also have to be mindful of the incentives we are creating.

Here's the reality, though. ECNL is really in the scheme of things not that important. It's not academy ball like the boy's program highest tier. There's no drug testing so we aren't bending over backwards to ensure a level playing field. There's nothing to stop the same balance you propose as for a rec program: play up a year.

Here are the tests with adolescents:
-if you think testosterone is a performance enhancing drug that unbalances the playing field, are you trying to catch the cheaters? Presumably you are also o.k. with those that went on puberty blockers (or more drastically, transitioning) before 12/13/14 playing on the girls side without restrictions?
-if you think it's a genetics thing, are you o.k. with FTM playing in the girls league, even if they are taking testosterone, until they are ready to shift?
-if it's a safety thing, are you in favor of size/weight restrictions on all players, and not just those because of their status?

Because otherwise there may be something motivating the person beyond just concerns about performance, safety or genetics.

Ftm:
The answer for ftm is that ftm athletes on monitored hormone supplements have an unfair advantage. They should be welcome in a boys division.

Ftm athletes who are not on hormone supplements do not have an unfair advantage. They should be welcome in the division of their choice.

Ftm athletes who take unnecessarily large doses of hormone supplements are doping and should not be welcome in either division.

Hope that's clear.

Playing up:

Is a great solution for a pre pubescent girls league.

Playing up doesn't really do much for older girls leagues, because female puberty doesn't improve athletic performance. Take a look at track and field times. The boys are off like rockets from 13 to 18. The high school girls often still lose to 8th graders. The extra year isn't giving you as much.

 

[dad4]

It really isn't becoming an issue of "destabilizing the game" in ECNL. This is made-up, chicken little, fear mongering.

You criticize Grace for arguing in circles but you keep saying the same thing when it just isn't the case.

Let them play where they feel most comfortable in competitive youth leagues. Only call it an issue if it becomes one.

Suppose it becomes an issue. A team starts winning games they could never have won without the trans kid.

How do you propose people raise the issue without putting an unfair spotlight on the kid?

 

[Woodwork]

Suppose it becomes an issue. A team starts winning games they could never have won without the trans kid.

How do you propose people raise the issue without putting an unfair spotlight on the kid?

Don't act like you are protecting trans-gender people from getting hurt.

I don't waste time legislating problems that don't exist and may never exist. That is the province of fear mongers.

Ponder what it makes you if you put in all kinds of rules that just hurt people when it was never gonna be a problem. FYI, what you described isn't per se a problem. HEAVEN FORBID THE PLAYER CONTRIBUTE AND HELP THE TEAM WIN. My ECNL captain DD would welcome this kid on her team or the other team.

 

[Grace T.]

Ftm:
The answer for ftm is that ftm athletes on monitored hormone supplements have an unfair advantage. They should be welcome in a boys division.

Ftm athletes who are not on hormone supplements do not have an unfair advantage. They should be welcome in the division of their choice.

Ftm athletes who take unnecessarily large doses of hormone supplements are doping and should not be welcome in either division.

Hope that's clear.

Playing up:

Is a great solution for a pre pubescent girls league.

Playing up doesn't really do much for older girls leagues, because female puberty doesn't improve athletic performance. Take a look at track and field times. The boys are off like rockets from 13 to 18. The high school girls often still lose to 8th graders. The extra year isn't giving you as much.

Well, at least we finally are on clear ground. Performance it is. "Ftm athletes who take unnecessarily large doses of hormone supplements are doping and should not be welcome in either division." O.k., unless you want to go back to your witchhunt that you floated (which I welcome your disavowel even if you wouldn't come out and say it) and test only the trans kids, if you care about a level playing field so much, test for doping. You could limit it the ages, divisions, and particular contests you want to exclude the trans people from, you can do it randomly. If unusually high levelled testosterone girls get caught in it and they have to go on testosterone suppressants, too bad so sad...if she declines she can play with the boys. Presumably as well if the teen undergoes puberty blockers or has the operation before puberty kicks in (we can argue about the age specifics: 12/13/14), no problem with them playing in the girls league. It has the nasty side effect that you will be encouraging parents to take the risk of transitioning their kids earlier rather than wait, but collateral damage. It's more important, after all, that the highly competitive and sacrosanct nature of ECNL kiddie ball be preserved. While we are at it, why aren't the higher levels doing more to suss out the fake birth certificates we know are floating around out there?

BTW, I told you already solo sports need to be held to a different standard than teams sports. The impact of one athlete is going to be much more severe on the competition, particular if records or individual championships are at stake. The impact of one athlete on a team is much less severe (particularly soccer, less so basketball).

 

[dad4]

Don't act like you are protecting trans-gender people from getting hurt.

I don't waste time legislating problems that don't exist and may never exist. That is the province of fear mongers.

Ponder what it makes you if you put in all kinds of rules that just hurt people when it was never gonna be a problem. FYI, what you described isn't per se a problem. HEAVEN FORBID THE PLAYER CONTRIBUTE AND HELP THE TEAM WIN. My ECNL captain DD would welcome this kid on her team or the other team.

Sure. Your kid is captain, and would be happy to have the former boy as a teammate. No sweat off her back. She still has her spot.

Tell me how she would feel if she was the one who got bumped down to ECRL to make room for the same player.

 

[Soccer Dad & Ref]

Sure. Your kid is captain, and would be happy to have the former boy as a teammate. No sweat off her back. She still has her spot.

Tell me how she would feel if she was the one who got bumped down to ECRL to make room for the same player.

And there it is. Transphobia in all its wonders. Is there a difference if your kid gets dropped because of a better player that was born female?

 

[Woodwork]

Sure. Your kid is captain, and would be happy to have the former boy as a teammate. No sweat off her back. She still has her spot.

Tell me how she would feel if she was the one who got bumped down to ECRL to make room for the same player.

Same as if there were 21 other players on the team that weren't trans.

If the trans player earned the right to be Captain and my daughter stepped away from it with class, I'll know I've raised a strong and resilient adult. Also, we've got our personal statement with guaranteed admission to Harvard! YES!!!

 

[dad4]

And there it is. Transphobia in all its wonders. Is there a difference if your kid gets dropped because of a better player that was born female?

Dropped for a better female athlete? Part of sports. Learn from it.

Dropped for a genetically male athlete who is playing in a female league? Unfair advantage, and not at all ok. As bad as putting a U15 kid in a U14 league.

Now add one. Suppose my son is dropped from the team to make space for a trans girl, or for a trans boy who takes supplements. That's also just fine.

I see you're back to the name calling. Go play with Golden Gate.

 

[Woodwork]

Dropped for a better female athlete? Part of sports. Learn from it.

Dropped for a genetically male athlete who is playing in a female league? Unfair advantage, and not at all ok. As bad as putting a U15 kid in a U14 league.

Now add one. Suppose my son is dropped from the team to make space for a trans girl, or for a trans boy who takes supplements. That's also just fine.

I see you're back to the name calling. Go play with Golden Gate.

Please explain how a trans athlete who merely manages to push the 22nd player off the bench is "unfairly superior." Sounds like a good fit to me. Sounds like merely existing in the space is enough to trigger you.

 

[Grace T.]

Dropped for a better female athlete? Part of sports. Learn from it.

Dropped for a genetically male athlete who is playing in a female league? Unfair advantage, and not at all ok. As bad as putting a U15 kid in a U14 league.

Now add one. Suppose my son is dropped from the team to make space for a trans girl, or for a trans boy who takes supplements. That's also just fine.

I see you're back to the name calling. Go play with Golden Gate.

The issue is that you aren't recognizing that all these limitations are arbitrary constructs. Why is it bad for a U15 kid to supplant a U14 kid in the league, but given we know about the vast differences in middle schools ages, it wasn't bad for my August birthday kid to lose his oldest designation and now have to play against January kids (plus he lost a year of soccer to boot)? Wasn't that unfair?

What if the girl that comes and bumps your daughter is an XXY or just a girl with an unusual testosterone count? What if she just happens to be unnaturally bigger and can bump the other kids off the ball? What if they are on steroids and you aren't testing and don't know it? It's all just arbitrary line drawing. "Fairness" doesn't really exist....it's just winners and losers.

BTW, what we are talking about too is "fairness" within an arbitrary construct: women's sports. In the fictional Federation we talked about, the only thing that matters is "being the best". Instinctively, that's why women's pro sports have such a low audience eyeballs. If it hadn't been for Title IX, we'd still have women's sports, but they wouldn't have proliferated as much as they did, and there certainly wouldn't be a level playing field. So it isn't about being the "best"....what's it ultimately about?.....well it was about participation and equality, which makes the lines you are trying to draw both ironic and ephemeral.

 

[Woodwork]

I find using ECNL as an example is hilarious anyway. As though being rostered on these teams reflects a true meritocracy to begin with. So many people on these teams that didn't really compete to get their spots, so many to complain about before I would land on a trans kid.

 

[espola]

There is a lot of talk about new players with physical advantages (however achieved) are "displanting" the weak end of the bench. I can't remember that any of the teams my kids played on didn't have room to add a player.

 

[GoldenGate]

Your civil rights analogy is really irrelevant. That was a quest for fundamental equality. This subject is exploring whether enabling fundamental inequality serves a more noble purpose.

I clearly was not talking about 10 year olds. I think you're inclusive stance there is 100% spot on.

I was not talking about "hurting others." I agree that is a silly argument with the sole purpose of justifying exclusion.

I was not talking about kiddie trophies that are largely irrelevant.

I am most certainly willing to consider the abuse teams kids suffer and weigh that against a multitude of other factors.

I was clearly talking about post-pubescent teens and adults. And I think your flamethrowing lacks appropriate nuance in a complicated discussion.

This isn't even a real discussion, because you are so fired up about the obvious transphobes that you aren't reasonably engaging with anyone who might be trying to have a real conversation. You are instead lumping anyone who may not agree with your personal opinion together and trying to score rhetorical points, and it isn't really helping the discourse.

But maybe that's your agenda and I am being trolled by hoping I may learn something that helps refine or change my opinion here.

I did not accuse you of arguing that trans children are going to hurt. I was speaking generally about those who did, and yes they're transphobic. In other words, not everything is about you even if I'm discussing something that happens to be following up on one of your posts. I have had plenty of real discussion about this, including that discussing post-pubescent arguments against are at least rational ones to make. In fact, despite my obvious penchant to rake transphobes over the coals, I'm one of few people here who have actually acknowledged merits on the other side. But yes, I flame throw against bigots because shooting fish in a barrel like that is kinda fun.

 

[Grace T.]

There is a lot of talk about new players with physical advantages (however achieved) are "displanting" the weak end of the bench. I can't remember that any of the teams my kids played on didn't have room to add a player.

Some of the leagues have roster caps (I think for ECNL it's high at 28). Given the substitution rules, they can't however play all of them. ECNL tries to make this up (claims its because they care about development) by allowing players to play up but realistically what coach is going to play up some of his best players and risk a loss? MLS Next, particularly the academy teams but also some of the regular club teams, solves this by some players just don't have an expectation to play, and some players (say the 3rd goalkeeper) don't even get to dress.

 

[GoldenGate]

The question isn't really about youth rec sports. Most trans kids in youth rec can play without destabilizing the game, though some might need to play up a year in order to fit in. You can probably leave it up to the director of the rec program to decide on a case by case basis.

It's becoming an issue for ECNL, and for college.

I see, so you're admitting the entire issue of "safety" is a bullshit one since you're cool with trans girls playing rec. So your real issue is that you just don't want trans girls playing in whatever league you say so. And that is because you get to decide which kiddie soccer trophies are just too important?

So why can a director of a rec program decide when it is ok but the directors of comp programs cannot? Again, it all comes back to you and your daughter's fragile egos and your kid's lack of athletic ability. Honestly, it sounds to me like she's the one who needs to be in a rec league. I'm happy to send participation trophies your way if it helps.

 

[dad4]

Please explain how a trans athlete who merely manages to push the 22nd player off the bench is "unfairly superior." Sounds like a good fit to me. Sounds like merely existing in the space is enough to trigger you.

The trouble is the space, not the existence.

I also object to 15 years olds who exist in the space of U14 teams. This doesn't mean you need to start calling me a "fifteenphobe".

 

[Grace T.]

The trouble is the space, not the existence.

I also object to 15 years olds who exist in the space of U14 teams. This doesn't mean you need to start calling me a "fifteenphobe".

You are literally drawing artificially drawn borders to come up with a particular "space". You unknowingly have stumbled into an absolutely great analogy that works against you. You are yelling "no this is my space, stay out" instead of questioning why the space should be a circle rather than a square.

 

[Happened again]

Please explain how a trans athlete who merely manages to push the 22nd player off the bench is "unfairly superior." Sounds like a good fit to me. Sounds like merely existing in the space is enough to trigger you.

Because probably that's now how it would work. And lay off the transphobe comments, it's a weak diversion.

We can what aboutism this to death. A high performing post pubescent male is going to wreak havoc on any girls team. He will wreak havoc on the field. I suppose this is where puberty blockers and hormone therapy comes in. Complicated issue...regardless, post pubescent XY is likely to have an unfair advantage over XX...it's just biology. Puberty blockers and hormone treatment aside.

I love it when an argument gets thrown out the door once societal/cultural issues come into play. Again, not transphobe - if that's what you want to label me , then please pound sand

I mean, did you watch swimming the last 6 months? post pubescence development is not reversible...shoulder, hip bone density doesn't go away...you can certainly mess with it pre-pubescent, but not post.

Ulittle coed play..sure...coed league after 14/15..sure..

 

[Woodwork]

Because probably that's now how it would work. And lay off the transphobe comments, it's a weak diversion.

We can what aboutism this to death. A high performing post pubescent male is going to wreak havoc on any girls team. He will wreak havoc on the field. I suppose this is where puberty blockers and hormone therapy comes in. Complicated issue...regardless, post pubescent XY is likely to have an unfair advantage over XX...it's just biology. Puberty blockers and hormone treatment aside.

I love it when an argument gets thrown out the door once societal/cultural issues come into play. Again, not transphobe - if that's what you want to label me , then please pound sand

I mean, did you watch swimming the last 6 months? post pubescence development is not reversible...shoulder, hip bone density doesn't go away...you can certainly mess with it pre-pubescent, but not post.

Ulittle coed play..sure...coed league after 14/15..sure..

Did you mean to reply to my post? Your post doesn't seem to follow. I don't believe I labeled Dad4 it. In fact, Dad4 more or less acknowledged it didn't matter whether the trans player was a good fit and not particularly high-performing on a team, it is enough that the trans player took a non-trans player's fault. I appreciate Dad4 because he at least seems to have a coherent enough grasp of where the conversation is going to allow us to find to root of our disagreement.

Grace also goes to the heart of it by saying, sure we have these lines, but can they be drawn somewhere else more sensibly. Fair point.

On the other hand, you are back to some other part of the argument that my post wasn't focused on. You are talking about the idea that some elite soccer player from the boys' side is going transition then come in and "wreak havoc." I'm not labeling you as a person, but I see this level of speculation as fear mongering until we actually see it happen in ECNL, the highest level of youth girls soccer. Theoretically, sure. Just, in reality, why make a bunch of rules and legislate and lobby and get all upset and exhaust energy over something that isn't actually happening? We wait until we see what it looks like, then we can see whether something needs to be fixed or whether it works itself out.

As a staunch republican, I'm all for letting the free market work itself out and for people to figure it out without authorities always sticking their noses in. I'm also for my daughter having to deal with some real challenges, even unfair ones, without her reacting like a whiny baby. Life ain't fair. Oh, I'm sorry, one little trans kid took your bally? Call the whaaaambulance. I'll be darned if she can come crying to me. Get back up and play harder.

 

[Grace T.]

Because probably that's now how it would work. And lay off the transphobe comments, it's a weak diversion.

We can what aboutism this to death. A high performing post pubescent male is going to wreak havoc on any girls team. He will wreak havoc on the field. I suppose this is where puberty blockers and hormone therapy comes in. Complicated issue...regardless, post pubescent XY is likely to have an unfair advantage over XX...it's just biology. Puberty blockers and hormone treatment aside.

I love it when an argument gets thrown out the door once societal/cultural issues come into play. Again, not transphobe - if that's what you want to label me , then please pound sand

I mean, did you watch swimming the last 6 months? post pubescence development is not reversible...shoulder, hip bone density doesn't go away...you can certainly mess with it pre-pubescent, but not post.

Ulittle coed play..sure...coed league after 14/15..sure..

Well that’s the problem with a one size fits all policy. You are raising the worst case (a high performing mtf not on hormones or puberty blockers that goes in and wrecks the girls). The one case I’m familiar with (not soccer) was a mtf who was diagnosed when she was 7 and while a decent runner was pretty much indistinguishable from a girl with no upper body strength relative to the high performing boys. That argues for granting committees discretion for the best fit (but that would also spill over to boys and girls who are early/late bloomer and the possibility for corruption is high). And there should therefore be no objection to a mtf that goes on puberty blockers or has surgery before going through puberty…correct?

you Also can’t throw in an elite swimmer to this. What happens in elite college sports has very little impact on an ecnl team sport where we aren’t doing testosterone testing. The rules might very well be different for both.

 

[Happened again]

Well that’s the problem with a one size fits all policy. You are raising the worst case (a high performing mtf not on hormones or puberty blockers that goes in and wrecks the girls). The one case I’m familiar with (not soccer) was a mtf who was diagnosed when she was 7 and while a decent runner was pretty much indistinguishable from a girl with no upper body strength relative to the high performing boys. That argues for granting committees discretion for the best fit (but that would also spill over to boys and girls who are early/late bloomer and the possibility for corruption is high). And there should therefore be no objection to a mtf that goes on puberty blockers or has surgery before going through puberty…correct?

you Also can’t throw in an elite swimmer to this. What happens in elite college sports has very little impact on an ecnl team sport where we aren’t doing testosterone testing. The rules might very well be different for both.

I know it isn't fair to compare an elite collegiate swimmer (more elite in one gender than the other) to youth soccer leagues. Again, this is a circular argument being made in a make believe world - nothing has really happened yet in regards to soccer..it may never happen. has happened in HS track though, and see the ruckus it caused. It's an emotional argument not really based in science/biology, rather in today's society..Nothing wrong with that by the way.

And to kinda answer your question, in this make believe world: If a pre-teen child undergoes treatment, then fine, as long as the field is level. IF a post pubescent transgirl, without any type of treatment and who is progressing on a normal curve at age 16 gets on a field with girls...then no...not a level playing field.

I wonder how many kids/parents go through the trials and tribulations of pre pubescent treatment for a trans child. It's not an easy environment to manage...usually sports are the last things on their mind.