Spain Women and thoughts on ECNL

[LouSag]

Well we already have something like that. Futsal. It’s 5v5 and it will enhance your technical skills, speed of play tenfold. What clubs should do is start their baby league futsal program. Similar to what Blues did last year. Have them play futsal until about 14/15 simultaneously with soccer. Once more clubs follow path. You start a futsal league and you have a season for it and tournaments. One of the reasons why my DD can play with boys is because of her technical ability and fast speed of play from the last few years of futsal. She’s a 3 time futsal national champ and arguably the best 2010 girl futsal player in the country..

All players that want to play at the top level should play Futsal until the age of 14/15. Clubs need to invest in this much more. South American, Portugal, and Spain youth systems demand it. It’s great that your DD plays futsal, however…..
The futsal national championships, whether USYF or USSF are nothing to brag about. Most of the futsal is not good. Most of the coaches at these tournaments have no clue what they are doing. As your daughter ages up to the u15/16 futsal age groups, they can’t even find enough teams to enter the tournament in Kansas City. Hence, combined age groups to fill the brackets. Got a few national futsal national titles in my household too, so been there, done that, and not paying for the X-country experience to play against some poor futsal clubs. Furthermore, the US women’s futsal national team is the worst of pay to play. If you’ve got $10 grand to drop, they will sign you immediately to the “National Team” to go play for a week over Xmas in Spain or Portugal.

 

[Ellejustus]

there is a big difference between futsal and arena soccer which you are referring to. Arena soccer has walls so you can pass to yourself. Futsal has out of bounds lines like a basketball court. So you gotta be way more technical to manage the ball from going out of bounds. You need to make accurate pin point passes and keep the ball moving fast. It’s very team oriented. Yes they do have scores but that’s what makes it fun for the kids. Because they get to score way more. I’ve seen games where teams are up 8-2 and within 5 minutes it could be 8-8. Very intense to watch and nerve racking. I can tell you from experience being in the biggest games in the country.My wife has had to walk away a few times cause she couldn’t handle the nerves. I don’t know how some of the little ones do it but it makes them mentally tough as well. Since it’s only 4 field players and 1 goalie you can have 1 player take over like Kobe Bryant and they become the hero of the game.
I love that part since I’m a big basketball fan. I
Think you would love it if you love B ball. Not saying I encourage them to do that but it’s possible because 1/5 can affect the game much more than 1/11. In outdoor soccer it does not make sense. But futsal well it’s ok at times especially if there are minutes to go and you down by a small margin. You need that player to do something special.

I like futsal over Indoor.

 

[LouSag]

Agree x1000 about young players and futsal.

More touches + faster speed of play + higher scores. Basically everything players do on the field is amplified.

Once you hit 11v11 Futsal skills aren't as helpful because the field opens up + players start doing tactics that aren't the same as small sided games. But having a strong base of footskills that comes from futsal is never a bad thing. Players just need to understand that field and futsal are 2 seperate things on an 11v11 field.

What's funny is after your kid plays Futsal as a younger you'll be able to see the movements it encourages. In a 7v7 game once you know what to look for it's easy to tell which players are playing Futsal and which ones likely arent.

I stood next to Anson Dorrance a few years ago watching an ECNL showcase game and we started chatting about futsal. He said that with about 90% accuracy, inside of 10 minutes watching the ECNL match, he could tell me which players played futsal…and he was right!

 

[Ellejustus]

Have to agree with this. In fact, my daughter and 2 pals won a 3 v 3 tournament against boys because they understood passing lanes, forwards are defenders and defenders are forwards. Those small sided games teach an awful lot and, IMO, don't get utilized enough.

I feel honored. My dd played in some fun and hard fought 3x3 tournaments when she was around 8-11. Speed is nice but faking one out and moving without the ball can win you a medal in these big 3 v 3 tournaments. It's fun to watch and all the girls get touches. We won it all one year and lost playing up another year. Shooting Stars and each player had a tutu for their uniform.

 

[Grace T.]

All players that want to play at the top level should play Futsal until the age of 14/15. Clubs need to invest in this much more. South American, Portugal, and Spain youth systems demand it. It’s great that your DD plays futsal, however…..
The futsal national championships, whether USYF or USSF are nothing to brag about. Most of the futsal is not good. Most of the coaches at these tournaments have no clue what they are doing. As your daughter ages up to the u15/16 futsal age groups, they can’t even find enough teams to enter the tournament in Kansas City. Hence, combined age groups to fill the brackets. Got a few national futsal national titles in my household too, so been there, done that, and not paying for the X-country experience to play against some poor futsal clubs. Furthermore, the US women’s futsal national team is the worst of pay to play. If you’ve got $10 grand to drop, they will sign you immediately to the “National Team” to go play for a week over Xmas in Spain or Portugal.

In Spain kids play small sided field games with 3/4 goals until U14. It's why sometimes Spanish teams struggle at Mic because it's usually 2 academy teams being pushed together in an 11 v 11 squad. Where they actually get a lot of their futsal experience is at elementary school recess on what would be basketball courts for us. On the academy lane the futsal and field players are very much considered separate tracks, separate games, because after the younger ages, as Carlsbad points out, the futsal skills don't really translate as well. The other reality is they do futsal because they have too....field space in Spain is much much much more limited than field space in the United States so in reality rec teams do futsal for that reason.

 

[Grace T.]

In Spain kids play small sided field games with 3/4 goals until U14. It's why sometimes Spanish teams struggle at Mic because it's usually 2 academy teams being pushed together in an 11 v 11 squad. Where they actually get a lot of their futsal experience is at elementary school recess on what would be basketball courts for us. On the academy lane the futsal and field players are very much considered separate tracks, separate games, because after the younger ages, as Carlsbad points out, the futsal skills don't really translate as well. The other reality is they do futsal because they have too....field space in Spain is much much much more limited than field space in the United States so in reality rec teams do futsal for that reason.

p.s. my kid played with his cousin's rec team the year I did a 3 month work stint in Spain. Our most crappy ass fields in downtown in LA have nothing on the crappy ass field with no nets they practiced on. Field quality doesn't translate to success. Otherwise Salt Lake City with its immaculate fields would be producing our best teams at every level.

 

[Carlsbad7]

All players that want to play at the top level should play Futsal until the age of 14/15. Clubs need to invest in this much more. South American, Portugal, and Spain youth systems demand it. It’s great that your DD plays futsal, however…..
The futsal national championships, whether USYF or USSF are nothing to brag about. Most of the futsal is not good. Most of the coaches at these tournaments have no clue what they are doing. As your daughter ages up to the u15/16 futsal age groups, they can’t even find enough teams to enter the tournament in Kansas City. Hence, combined age groups to fill the brackets. Got a few national futsal national titles in my household too, so been there, done that, and not paying for the X-country experience to play against some poor futsal clubs. Furthermore, the US women’s futsal national team is the worst of pay to play. If you’ve got $10 grand to drop, they will sign you immediately to the “National Team” to go play for a week over Xmas in Spain or Portugal.

Like I said in Futsal EVERYTHING is amplified.

- footskills
- speed of play
- small sided tactics
- number of shots on goal
- number of goals
- parents screaming for their player/team
- parents grouping up with other parents to make superteams
- parents willing to pay whatever it takes to win
- refs accepting hundred dollar bills to "keep it fair" ;-)
- crazy tournaments that feel like Mad Max beyond Thunderdome

As a spectator I like it more than field soccer. Your kid doesn't even have to win all the time to have fun because there's so much excitment in air.

 

[kickingandscreaming]

Well we already have something like that. Futsal. It’s 5v5 and it will enhance your technical skills, speed of play tenfold. What clubs should do is start their baby league futsal program. Similar to what Blues did last year. Have them play futsal until about 14/15 simultaneously with soccer. Once more clubs follow path. You start a futsal league and you have a season for it and tournaments. One of the reasons why my DD can play with boys is because of her technical ability and fast speed of play from the last few years of futsal. She’s a 3 time futsal national champ and arguably the best 2010 girl futsal player in the country..

Futsal is useful, but we wouldn't be having this discussion if it were the answer. It exists, and we still are in the state we are in with technical development. Something has to change. My point is to approach the change that needs to occur by incorporating it into our existing, high-participation, competitive youth soccer. Doing so might even increase participation in futsal as players develop more skills that are transferrable.

 

[Luis Andres]

All players that want to play at the top level should play Futsal until the age of 14/15. Clubs need to invest in this much more. South American, Portugal, and Spain youth systems demand it. It’s great that your DD plays futsal, however…..
The futsal national championships, whether USYF or USSF are nothing to brag about. Most of the futsal is not good. Most of the coaches at these tournaments have no clue what they are doing. As your daughter ages up to the u15/16 futsal age groups, they can’t even find enough teams to enter the tournament in Kansas City. Hence, combined age groups to fill the brackets. Got a few national futsal national titles in my household too, so been there, done that, and not paying for the X-country experience to play against some poor futsal clubs. Furthermore, the US women’s futsal national team is the worst of pay to play. If you’ve got $10 grand to drop, they will sign you immediately to the “National Team” to go play for a week over Xmas in Spain or Portugal.

The competition has gotten much better over the past few years. But you still have the kick ball teams that go all out playing soccer on the futsal field. They'll park the bus and the worst part is when the goalie becomes quarter back trying to lob the ball to the big strong striker cherry picking for the goal. However my daughter's futsal team is all about playng the right way. No kickball, triangle passing, good stuff. Since we just won nationals we are invited to go to Spain at the end of the year to batttle some of the top Spanish futsal teams like Barcelona. I hear they are very good. So let's see what happens should be fun. The one player from San Diego Waves Melanie Barcenas, the 15 year old who got signed not too long ago played futsal and she was very good at it. Argusbly the best player in her age group at the time. My DD looks up to her so she has been a role model to her,

 

[Luis Andres]

Futsal is useful, but we wouldn't be having this discussion if it were the answer. It exists, and we still are in the state we are in with technical development. Something has to change. My point is to approach the change that needs to occur by incorporating it into our existing, high-participation, competitive youth soccer. Doing so might even increase participation in futsal as players develop more skills that are transferrable.

Wouldn't you agree that if US soccer made futsal a requirement for the younger ages then it may help? The problem is not enough kids play futsal. So you will never have that pool of players. In other countries like Brazil and Spain, if you play soccer you also play futsal when you were young. It's part of the culture.

 

[LouSag]

The competition has gotten much better over the past few years. But you still have the kick ball teams that go all out playing soccer on the futsal field. They'll park the bus and the worst part is when the goalie becomes quarter back trying to lob the ball to the big strong striker cherry picking for the goal. However my daughter's futsal team is all about playng the right way. No kickball, triangle passing, good stuff. Since we just won nationals we are invited to go to Spain at the end of the year to batttle some of the top Spanish futsal teams like Barcelona. I hear they are very good. So let's see what happens should be fun. The one player from San Diego Waves Melanie Barcenas, the 15 year old who got signed not too long ago played futsal and she was very good at it. Argusbly the best player in her age group at the time. My DD looks up to her so she has been a role model to her,

I‘ve known Mel since she was 9 years old. DD played with Mel and her dad‘s/uncle’s futsal club for years. Jill Ellis use to drop in Friday nights to watch our group play. That’s how Jill got connected with Mel.
So futsal played the right way, I know a “little” about that. Already watched in person the youth USA national team play against Barca and Royal Madrid youth teams over the fast few years. Competitive, and the US team showed well. Every year we won nationals we got the invite to Europe. Go if you want, but it’s a money grab. Best part is the tours of Camp Nou, La Masia, and the Bernabau. My opinion, if u want the full experience, go to the USYF national team selection tryouts in KC, and do it with the National team. Some years they go to S America instead. But it’s still a money grab.

 

[Ellejustus]

Lou and Luis know their stuff 100%. Thanks for sharing. My dd played one season of futsal and it was a kickball team and no fun and so we bailed. It looked dangerous to be honest. I see if played right, then it's hug benefits. I wish my dd had a chance to play futsal. I heard about Mel playing futsal and you can see her confidence with the ball. Thoughts on Hacky Sack?

 

[Slobodan]

I stood next to Anson Dorrance a few years ago watching an ECNL showcase game and we started chatting about futsal. He said that with about 90% accuracy, inside of 10 minutes watching the ECNL match, he could tell me which players played futsal…and he was right!

Did you recognize, appreciate and acknowledge the greatness in the moment?

 

[Luis Andres]

I‘ve known Mel since she was 9 years old. DD played with Mel and her dad‘s/uncle’s futsal club for years. Jill Ellis use to drop in Friday nights to watch our group play. That’s how Jill got connected with Mel.
So futsal played the right way, I know a “little” about that. Already watched in person the youth USA national team play against Barca and Royal Madrid youth teams over the fast few years. Competitive, and the US team showed well. Every year we won nationals we got the invite to Europe. Go if you want, but it’s a money grab. Best part is the tours of Camp Nou, La Masia, and the Bernabau. My opinion, if u want the full experience, go to the USYF national team selection tryouts in KC, and do it with the National team. Some years they go to S America instead. But it’s still a money grab.

That’s awesome man. We are actually going to this United World futsal cup and playing with our team. She’s been on the team for the past few years and they earned the trip to go. We were suppose to go before but covid hit. Players go free for winning Nationals. We going to Spain for 2 weeks. 1st week in Madrid to check out Real Madrid Academy for soccer and the second week we’ll be doing the futsal. I’ve never been to Spain so for me it’s like a vacation and I get to see what best girls out there are made of. Measure her up.

https://www.unitedfutsal.com/world-futsal-cup

 

[rainbow_unicorn]

Getting back on topic, change needs to come from top down (US Soccer needing to commit long term to changing their style of play) and from bottom up (parents over-the-top desire to win and collect trophies).

I spoke with a coach and he was saying how youngers parents are getting worse each year and demanding wins...otherwise they jump ship for other clubs that are winning trophies. Consequently coaches are changing their style to play more direct (more effective for wins at youngers age).

 

[Carlsbad7]

Getting back on topic, change needs to come from top down (US Soccer needing to commit long term to changing their style of play) and from bottom up (parents over-the-top desire to win and collect trophies).

I spoke with a coach and he was saying how youngers parents are getting worse each year and demanding wins...otherwise they jump ship for other clubs that are winning trophies. Consequently coaches are changing their style to play more direct (more effective for wins at youngers age).

As a coach wins equal $$$ and more players. When you're talking about youngers the biggest ones that sexually mature first get picked first.

For parents being on the top team equals the most gratification in the sewing circle. Also, because clubs drop and gain new players every year via tryouts it makes everyone crazy.

Combine both and you get the situation we have today with the USWNT.

The only way I can see that things change is if leagues or tournaments implement serious changes to the rules.

Things like...
- No goalie punts until 11v11
- 5 passes before shots on goal
- Only one goal per player. (once they score they have to wear a penny)
- Each coach gives half of their players to the other team before the game and has to figure out how to win. (Or make it more fun have a shootout before the game + whoever misses their shot has to play with the other team.)

The idea is to focus on team play vs individual effort. Different kids develop at different rates + in the end team play will provide more players more opportunities to become top talent.

 

[LASTMAN14]

On Youtube If you type in;
FC Barcelona U15 v LAFC Slammers U15 Full Match

You can watch Barcelona's Academy team and LAFC (Koge Slammers) from a few years ago. Please do not take this wrong as I know several of the players and families on this Koge team. It's not to disparage them but rather just to show the contrast of play at the youth level. As you know this is the Koge team who won two ECNL championships and is filled with youth national team players and division 1 players.

 

[RandomSoccerFan]

Things like...
- No goalie punts until 11v11
- 5 passes before shots on goal
- Only one goal per player. (once they score they have to wear a penny)
- Each coach gives half of their players to the other team before the game and has to figure out how to win. (Or make it more fun have a shootout before the game + whoever misses their shot has to play with the other team.)

The idea is to focus on team play vs individual effort. Different kids develop at different rates + in the end team play will provide more players more opportunities to become top talent.

Interesting thought experiments - but as far as I can tell some of them are so divorced from reality that it's unlikely. Goalie punt bans & 5 passes before goal may be able to be implemented, it's just unlikely to catch on. Basketball does some similar things for the youngers, for example not allowing a young team to press - sometimes throughout the game, sometimes all but the last quarter, etc. The intent is to keep a strong team from entirely preventing another team from even learning enough to get to offense - instead of being pressured to the extent that they aren't actually learning anything useful in their own backcourt.

I do squint a bit at all of the recommendations to focus on development over winning. Of course that's the end goal, the primary goal, etc. But raise your hand if you yourself kept your soccer-crazed kid on a losing team for more than a year or two. It's like there's this belief that there are all of these teams that are doing incredible development work but end up with teams with terrible records - and more enlightened parents should be choosing those instead of teams/coaches that are winning - but winning the "wrong" way. Would be great to highlight some (or any) such clubs/teams - because I'm not sure they actually exist.

Because what I have seen instead - over quite a few years of this silliness with multiple kids and various teams, leagues, and even sports, is that if a team is consistently losing the team will fail to exist in a year or two. Whether you ride it to the end as the rosters completely turn over every season, or are the first ones out the door - the end result is the same - there aren't ever going to be enough players to stick around as a cohesive unit to learn/grow/mature on a consistently losing team, perhaps unless geography/logistics means there are really zero other options.

I fully understand, and have experienced, that there are clubs/teams who aren't fully optimizing for wins at all costs - to promote development of many/all players instead - and these are probably where you'd want to end up if given various options. It's just that those same teams/clubs/coaches, are usually quite successful (even when judged small-mindedly only by wins), even without such a focus or optimization for wins.

 

[kickingandscreaming]

Wouldn't you agree that if US soccer made futsal a requirement for the younger ages then it may help? The problem is not enough kids play futsal. So you will never have that pool of players. In other countries like Brazil and Spain, if you play soccer you also play futsal when you were young. It's part of the culture.

I think futsal is a wise addition. However, I’m focused on the training time when they are with their soccer team. Think about the logistics of it. The futsal training cannot be held on the same field as soccer. If more “soccer” was spent developing technical and possession skills, that’s a win. I’m also trying to leverage our culture’s strong desire to win by adding a game that rewards the skills we see as lacking. We are in the choir. We believe in this type of development already. We need to reach the masses at their level.

 

[Grace T.]

Interesting thought experiments - but as far as I can tell some of them are so divorced from reality that it's unlikely. Goalie punt bans & 5 passes before goal may be able to be implemented, it's just unlikely to catch on. Basketball does some similar things for the youngers, for example not allowing a young team to press - sometimes throughout the game, sometimes all but the last quarter, etc. The intent is to keep a strong team from entirely preventing another team from even learning enough to get to offense - instead of being pressured to the extent that they aren't actually learning anything useful in their own backcourt.

I do squint a bit at all of the recommendations to focus on development over winning. Of course that's the end goal, the primary goal, etc. But raise your hand if you yourself kept your soccer-crazed kid on a losing team for more than a year or two. It's like there's this belief that there are all of these teams that are doing incredible development work but end up with teams with terrible records - and more enlightened parents should be choosing those instead of teams/coaches that are winning - but winning the "wrong" way. Would be great to highlight some (or any) such clubs/teams - because I'm not sure they actually exist.

Because what I have seen instead - over quite a few years of this silliness with multiple kids and various teams, leagues, and even sports, is that if a team is consistently losing the team will fail to exist in a year or two. Whether you ride it to the end as the rosters completely turn over every season, or are the first ones out the door - the end result is the same - there aren't ever going to be enough players to stick around as a cohesive unit to learn/grow/mature on a consistently losing team, perhaps unless geography/logistics means there are really zero other options.

I fully understand, and have experienced, that there are clubs/teams who aren't fully optimizing for wins at all costs - to promote development of many/all players instead - and these are probably where you'd want to end up if given various options. It's just that those same teams/clubs/coaches, are usually quite successful (even when judged small-mindedly only by wins), even without such a focus or optimization for wins.

My experience on the boys end, particularly with Coast is that those teams tend to "grind". Because of pro/rel, they finished mid-table, did not get promotion, the best players leave the team, the coach is forced to start over which means new players need to learn which means the old players get frustrated when the same result happens. Eventually those teams grind their way up slowly from flight 3 to maybe finish at the end flight 1, but with little chance of anything higher as any talented or hard working players are by then long gone. The teams that exploded were teams that were placed in the wrong bracket: for example, one team where the club broke apart due to some financial irregularities, my son once played on a silver team that blew up because it didn't have enough players (they'd lose if they only had 10 or 9 show up out of 12), an AYSO team playing for the first time in bronze, a team where half the players were 1 year younger but they wanted to hold the group together.

The mega clubs for that reason have streamlined placement (along with self placement in Socal league). I'd argue it's one of the positive developments of the rise of the mega club, assuming placement actually worked towards the ideal. Theoretically, the club would have a large pool of players, and since they control the placement of players in pretty much a monopoly for the area, they assign the player to the proper level given their development. There are 4 problems with this ideal: 1. the letter league shuffle and the fact we don't have a unified pyramid on either the boys or girls end means there is no streamlined system, 2. the mega clubs still have an incentive to win and the easiest way to do it is still to get the early/tallest bloomers, 3. politics and the fact that decisions are often made for reasons other than merit, and 4. the shiny new object problem (which really can't be fixed with the transfer fee laws being the way they are). If you compare any MLS Next boys team to a clubs flight 2 team around the age of 13, the deciding factor is that the MLS Next boys team has an average a foot of height on the flight 2 team and look like they are 2 years older.

The way Spain works out on the everyone plays rec level is there is a consortium of clubs for the areas. There are tryouts where year to year you are placed in different levels. Placement doesn't really matter because rec really is about just having fun and competition. The pros have been separated into the academy track and there is no college track. So the stakes of getting misplaced are very low. The English system is much more like ours, but again, the pros have been separated out from a very early age and there is no college track.

 

[watfly]

The one player from San Diego Waves Melanie Barcenas, the 15 year old who got signed not too long ago played futsal and she was very good at it. Argusbly the best player in her age group at the time. My DD looks up to her so she has been a role model to her,

My 07 son used to play her in futsal often when he was younger. She destroyed the boys.