SoCal Soccer Attitude Change

I have never bee to a competitive golf match? I am pretty sure I would fall asleep at that. And yest the leagues make the rules which in many cases is based on what is good for the league, not the players or even the sport. (thats a whole other topic) But when you look at the rules that the refs on here use to back up there argument (code of conduct) they are very general and purposely non specific as to how they must enforce them. "Respect the game officials and refrain from questioning their decisions" Thats where the referees have some leeway as to how to respond. In other aspects of the game you apply factors such as advantage, age of players, level of players, intentional or non intentional etc why not in crowd policing? I respect my father but he has made some stupid decisions a few times and I have told him. I respect my wife but there have been times we have disagreed. Using the soccer league logic she should have thrown me out of the house long ago because I didnt like to watch some chic flic.....
 
Most parents are good spectators and cheer for their kids. I completely understand the occasional parent(s) that yell at me (sometimes they may actually have a better angle than me). That is just part of the game. The problem occurs when that parent(s) continue and keep the negative comments coming. The good coaches and managers will shut them up, if not than I will talk to the coach and ask the coach to quiet them. The last thing I want to do is have the coach remove a spectator. They pay a lot of money for their kid to play. But more importantly, they will embarrass their kid and miss seeing them play.

I as an adult have the experience and skills to deal with people yelling at me. A 13 year old youth referee has not developed those coping skills and a youth soccer game is not the appropriate place lace to learn.
 
coachrefparent said:
These are from Cal South, and apply to all game officials. So I guess he's being generous, as are all referees for putting up with the violation of these rules in every match. I know I'm guilty on occasion as a parent or coach, and I appreciate the discretion.

All local leagues from AYSO on upto the highest competitive circuit all consistently state that there is zero tolerance for questioning decisions, or challenging the authority of youth referees, whether you agree with that or not. The reality, as opposed to these fictional hypotheticals, is that no coach is going to be sent off if they have a calm, rational, discreet question to a youth referee. But we all know that's not the "problem" being discussed here.
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Surfref claims that there're specific rules pertaining to youth refs. He also claims LOTG allows him to consider "referee credibility" in his decisions, and a cap on fouls referees can call. What you quoted doesn't support any of those claims, unless you consider questions "in a pleasant tone" to be abuse.
 
wildcat66 said:
For me it is the definition of "abusive" I have said before i attend many sporting events and have rarely seen referees concern themselves with crowd, snide comments, or spectator noise, except in soccer. On Friday i was at the local football game and it happened to be homecoming for the local high school. The game was close and toward the end there was quite a few penalties which were all judgement calls. Of course depending on which way the call went the crowd was either for it or against it. There were a number of boos, come on Refs, etc etc coming from both sides...the coaches both came a little unglued as well. did the refs stop the game and caution the coach? NO. Did the ref engage anyone of the spectators about there comments? NO. They never even turned around and looked at the crowd. They just reffed the game and called them as they saw them....Eere they wrong in not giving everyone a lecture in proper sportsmanship and etiquette I guess by some people's standard they didn't do thier job. I feel that they just blocked it out and by doing so the game progressed without any problems.
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I cannot honestly hear the spectators when I work club, HS, adult or college games in a stadium. Most youth games have the parents 3-5 yards from the touch line, so I can hear everything said by the spectators. I have also officiated club and HS volleyball, baseball(worst spectators), and lacrosse. Baseball is far worse than soccer and club volleyball is about the same as soccer. I can usually block out the annoying parent, but when the players start to repeat the parents comments that is when I have to interact with the coach. What is so difficult about sitting there, listening to some music and watching your kid play some soccer without yelling at the referee?
 
Laced said:
Surfref claims that there're specific rules pertaining to youth refs. He also claims LOTG allows him to consider "referee credibility" in his decisions, and a cap on fouls referees can call. What you quoted doesn't support any of those claims, unless you consider questions "in a pleasant tone" to be abuse.
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Go get referee qualified and learn. That is if you are physically able to run with 16-18 year old boys or girls for 90 minutes. Hopefully you are smart enough to read the game, tactics, read the players, make split second decisions, know all of the LOTG, Interpretations, gaming rules and how to apply them while doing a full speed sprint down the field. You would be surprised at the difficulty level. Maybe that is why 80 percent of new referees do not referee more than two years.

If you really want to watch you kid okay while yelling at the referee, than sit 25-30 yards off the touch line. The referee probably will not hear you then.

Enough soccer. Onto CalGuns to talk about my favorite hobbie, putting rounds down range.
 
Surfref said:
Go get referee qualified and learn. That is if you are physically able to run with 16-18 year old boys or girls for 90 minutes. Hopefully you are smart enough to read the game, tactics, read the players, make split second decisions, know all of the LOTG, Interpretations, gaming rules and how to apply them while doing a full speed sprint down the field. You would be surprised at the difficulty level. Maybe that is why 80 percent of new referees do not referee more than two years.

If you really want to watch you kid okay while yelling at the referee, than sit 25-30 yards off the touch line. The referee probably will not hear you then.

Enough soccer. Onto CalGuns to talk about my favorite hobbie, putting rounds down range.
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SR, what is your favorite weapon? I am a single action, Colt 1911 guy myself and as rifles, Colt Le 6920 and win 300sm.
 
This is from SCDSL rules:
"Coaches are responsible for their team sideline and parent sideline and all actions therein. Coaches are expected
to coach their teams in a positive and respectful manner. The SCDSL encourages referees to discipline any coach
for irresponsible behavior if the coach, player or parent uses derogatory words or actions aimed at their players,
the opposing team’s players, coach or sideline or any of the referees".

Pretty simple and clear to me.
 
What is the final issue here, sorry too lazy to read back but still want to comment on officials. Officials have improved significantly over the years, especially since I created this world. More players have become refs and they mostly understand the game, cynicism on the part of players, as well as the laws. Of course as a matter of perspective officials will make calls that are speculative in the eyes of the beholder. Unfortunately we have yet to design a system of perfection. The real crime is the lack of education on the part of spectators and coaches alike. Just walk an independent sideline and listen to the stupidity with respect to officiating. Just the understanding of off-sides and participation; all you can do is laugh, "COME ON REF". One more thing, leave the kids alone as they are the future of officiating; I for one don't want them to walk away. The word has been spoken!
 
Surfref said:
Go get referee qualified and learn. That is if you are physically able to run with 16-18 year old boys or girls for 90 minutes. Hopefully you are smart enough to read the game, tactics, read the players, make split second decisions, know all of the LOTG, Interpretations, gaming rules and how to apply them while doing a full speed sprint down the field. You would be surprised at the difficulty level. Maybe that is why 80 percent of new referees do not referee more than two years.

If you really want to watch you kid okay while yelling at the referee, than sit 25-30 yards off the touch line. The referee probably will not hear you then.

Enough soccer. Onto CalGuns to talk about my favorite hobbie, putting rounds down range.
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Juvenile. Accusing me being one of the sideline idiots doesn't change the fact you made false claims.

Ultimately, the game belongs to the kids. It's their show. Not mine. Nor yours. But in the so many cute little stories you like to tell, you're usually the white knight. The main character. Never mind it's against referee ethics to talk about games. You want to "educate" us parents, as if LOTG is some mysterious document only you, with an entry-level license, can understand. As if working at MacDonald makes you a chef. You make up "rules of thumb" as if you don't have to work "within the framework" of LOTG. Don't want to get exposed? Simple. Don't pretend to be an authority on something you have a cursory understanding of. Don't cite rules that don't exist. You may or may not be an adequate youth referee. An authority on LOTG? Hardly.
 
In all seriousness, do clubs/teams have any say who refs their games? Is there a schedule that comes out ahead of time? If a coach knows that certain refs tend to call things that perhaps his team does can he request different refs? I don't mean having referees that are in your pocket but it is also understandable that certain refs have personal beliefs on how the game is suppose to be played and that may not be your style ie when my daughter played a couple years ago in Coast Silver Elite, most of the teams during the season were Inland empire clubs who played what I called "blue collar physical soccer" the refs seemed to understand that and wouldn't call many fouls. The Attitude seemed to be "let them play." A few of the teams were from Temecula or orange county and when those refs officiated they were calling things that the other refs just simply didn't call. Also not to be stereotypical but many of the more Hispanic dominated sidelines were a lot more vocal towards what was going on .... the inland empire refs didn't seem to care where as the Orange county refs were always cautioning coaches/parents etc. On the same note do the refs have any say who they will ref? ie Coach A and I have a history so it wouldn't be fair for me to be his ref because whatever.....just thinking what if ref was the cousin or something of the coach and opposing team knew it?
 
Laced said:
Juvenile. Accusing me being one of the sideline idiots doesn't change the fact you made false claims.

Ultimately, the game belongs to the kids. It's their show. Not mine. Nor yours. But in the so many cute little stories you like to tell, you're usually the white knight. The main character. Never mind it's against referee ethics to talk about games. You want to "educate" us parents, as if LOTG is some mysterious document only you, with an entry-level license, can understand. As if working at MacDonald makes you a chef. You make up "rules of thumb" as if you don't have to work "within the framework" of LOTG. Don't want to get exposed? Simple. Don't pretend to be an authority on something you have a cursory understanding of. Don't cite rules that don't exist. You may or may not be an adequate youth referee. An authority on LOTG? Hardly.
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Are you a referee? Do you know any referees for soccer? I have read the laws of the game several times, but I am not a referee. I am just a parent (but not JAP). I do however video every game my kids play in. This means I have watched every game at least twice and the second time I have the ability to replay and go frame by frame. I have seen many referee mistakes, but I have also found that for calls that the sideline disputes, referees more often than not make the correct call. This makes sense since they are usually closer to the game and have been trained. Having said that, the following is just my opinion, albeit a well informed opinion.

While I don't know the details, I do know that SurfRef has years of referee experience, including some international experience. I would rank SurfRef in the top dozen or so of all the referees I have seen at the youth level. I don't know who BaldRef or JAP are, so I cannot comment on their referee skills.
 
outside! said:
Are you a referee? Do you know any referees for soccer? I have read the laws of the game several times, but I am not a referee. I am just a parent (but not JAP). I do however video every game my kids play in. This means I have watched every game at least twice and the second time I have the ability to replay and go frame by frame. I have seen many referee mistakes, but I have also found that for calls that the sideline disputes, referees more often than not make the correct call. This makes sense since they are usually closer to the game and have been trained. Having said that, the following is just my opinion, albeit a well informed opinion.

While I don't know the details, I do know that SurfRef has years of referee experience, including some international experience. I would rank SurfRef in the top dozen or so of all the referees I have seen at the youth level. I don't know who BaldRef or JAP are, so I cannot comment on their referee skills.
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Agree with majority of what you have said, however, the fact that you record your kids games is somewhat troubling.
 
outside! said:
Are you a referee? Do you know any referees for soccer? I have read the laws of the game several times, but I am not a referee. I am just a parent (but not JAP). I do however video every game my kids play in. This means I have watched every game at least twice and the second time I have the ability to replay and go frame by frame. I have seen many referee mistakes, but I have also found that for calls that the sideline disputes, referees more often than not make the correct call. This makes sense since they are usually closer to the game and have been trained. Having said that, the following is just my opinion, albeit a well informed opinion.

While I don't know the details, I do know that SurfRef has years of referee experience, including some international experience. I would rank SurfRef in the top dozen or so of all the referees I have seen at the youth level. I don't know who BaldRef or JAP are, so I cannot comment on their referee skills.
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How are sideline disputes, or his competence or experience at youth-level games relevant to the non-existing rules he cited?
 
Laced said:
Juvenile. Accusing me being one of the sideline idiots doesn't change the fact you made false claims.

Ultimately, the game belongs to the kids. It's their show. Not mine. Nor yours. But in the so many cute little stories you like to tell, you're usually the white knight. The main character. Never mind it's against referee ethics to talk about games. You want to "educate" us parents, as if LOTG is some mysterious document only you, with an entry-level license, can understand. As if working at MacDonald makes you a chef. You make up "rules of thumb" as if you don't have to work "within the framework" of LOTG. Don't want to get exposed? Simple. Don't pretend to be an authority on something you have a cursory understanding of. Don't cite rules that don't exist. You may or may not be an adequate youth referee. An authority on LOTG? Hardly.
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angry much? holy cow.....
 
wildcat66 said:
In all seriousness, do clubs/teams have any say who refs their games? Is there a schedule that comes out ahead of time? If a coach knows that certain refs tend to call things that perhaps his team does can he request different refs? I don't mean having referees that are in your pocket but it is also understandable that certain refs have personal beliefs on how the game is suppose to be played and that may not be your style ie when my daughter played a couple years ago in Coast Silver Elite, most of the teams during the season were Inland empire clubs who played what I called "blue collar physical soccer" the refs seemed to understand that and wouldn't call many fouls. The Attitude seemed to be "let them play." A few of the teams were from Temecula or orange county and when those refs officiated they were calling things that the other refs just simply didn't call. Also not to be stereotypical but many of the more Hispanic dominated sidelines were a lot more vocal towards what was going on .... the inland empire refs didn't seem to care where as the Orange county refs were always cautioning coaches/parents etc. On the same note do the refs have any say who they will ref? ie Coach A and I have a history so it wouldn't be fair for me to be his ref because whatever.....just thinking what if ref was the cousin or something of the coach and opposing team knew it?
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coaches or clubs can not request certain referees. that would be really "icky" for lack of a better term. the clubs do at times request not to have certain referees, and i have heard of associations, diverting those referees away from that club during the assigning. as for referees requesting certain teams or clubs? well, if we have any current affiliation to any clubs, we are not supposed to take those games, and for the most part that will happen. is this a perfect system? no.
are there different "style" of calling a game? yes and no, but mostly yes. certain referees might tend to call a tighter game or a loser game in general. however, that is not the way it should happen. calling a "tight" or "lose" game should depend on how the players are trying to play the game. if it's a higher level game and the players are comfortable with a little more physicality and are trying to fight through fouls and keep playing, then by all means the referee should allow that to a certain extent. if one team or the other is not comfortable with a high level of physicality, then if the fouls happen, they should be called. a good referee will call a game according to the players, not his or her own "style".
 
What do the refs think of the coaches who go up to them before games and "warn" them about the other team. I have had the pleasure of witnessing this now twice in a week and always wonder what a good ref is actually thinking?
 
baldref said:
coaches or clubs can not request certain referees. that would be really "icky" for lack of a better term. the clubs do at times request not to have certain referees, and i have heard of associations, diverting those referees away from that club during the assigning. as for referees requesting certain teams or clubs? well, if we have any current affiliation to any clubs, we are not supposed to take those games, and for the most part that will happen. is this a perfect system? no.
are there different "style" of calling a game? yes and no, but mostly yes. certain referees might tend to call a tighter game or a loser game in general. however, that is not the way it should happen. calling a "tight" or "lose" game should depend on how the players are trying to play the game. if it's a higher level game and the players are comfortable with a little more physicality and are trying to fight through fouls and keep playing, then by all means the referee should allow that to a certain extent. if one team or the other is not comfortable with a high level of physicality, then if the fouls happen, they should be called. a good referee will call a game according to the players, not his or her own "style".
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Thanks for this post.
I am confused about this though- "if one team isn't comfortable with the level of physicality"....uh the game is the game. A foul is a foul? Isn't that what you are trying to preach?
As much as I enjoy the theatrics, flops, girls crying then magically being healed on a direct kick, it's getting old.
Just trying to learn because I am definetly seeing a certain team likes to play a certain way and when the game isn't played the way they enjoy it they enlist a bevy of alternative tactics.
 
wildcat66 said:
For me it is the definition of "abusive" I have said before i attend many sporting events and have rarely seen referees concern themselves with crowd, snide comments, or spectator noise, except in soccer. On Friday i was at the local football game and it happened to be homecoming for the local high school. The game was close and toward the end there was quite a few penalties which were all judgement calls. Of course depending on which way the call went the crowd was either for it or against it. There were a number of boos, come on Refs, etc etc coming from both sides...the coaches both came a little unglued as well. did the refs stop the game and caution the coach? NO. Did the ref engage anyone of the spectators about there comments? NO. They never even turned around and looked at the crowd. They just reffed the game and called them as they saw them....Eere they wrong in not giving everyone a lecture in proper sportsmanship and etiquette I guess by some people's standard they didn't do thier job. I feel that they just blocked it out and by doing so the game progressed without any problems.
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Another thing that seems to be happening more in the last five years are the "teachable moment refs ". The ones who clearly enjoy their role and want to "make a point" by having a lengthy discussion about "how bad that was".
No thanks.
Don't see in football, baseball, lacrosse.
I like the refs and I respect them. However spare me the teachable moment lecture when you are not watching elbows flying, jerseys being pulled etc.
 
PSS for the record the ARs at the games this week were young. I made it a point to say thank you to them and say it was great having them because they kept pace with the game. His father was sitting next to me and said that is a rare thing and thanked me. I can only imagine my son doing it and would want someone to do the same to him one day.
So yes I do appreciate refs I am just confused by what I have been seeing round the pitch
 
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