Referees - what can we all do to improve the situation?

[baldref]

Dang, you beat me too it. I was going to mention the same thing. I wish all of the leagues let the referees provide an input that is only seen by the league. When I have really bad sidelines or coaches, I usually make a comment. I also comment on professional and well behaved coaches and managers. I also comment on bad field conditions. I know for a fact that someone at Presidio actually reads these comments because I have been contacted for more info or clarification.

I do as well. Good or bad, I leave feedback. Last one read: Great well behaved sidelines for both clubs

 

[GunninGopher]

One could take the abuse and the other one could not or would not. The moral of the story is you reap what you sow. Pretty soon we will be lucky to have two refs per game, three will be a thing of the past. Or maybe one CR and 2 club linesman.

If I have a youth referee as an AR, right before the game I say, from the field, "Coach, you are reminded that you have a youth referee on your sideline." Most the parents know what that means. I've never had a problem with youth referee abuse since I've started that. Some clubs have a policy where their parents don't sit on the side where the AR is running, and I'll put my youth AR there.

PLEASE let your assignor know what happened. They will make sure that your kid gets put with an AR that will ensure appropriate behavior and they might be interested in contacting the club to make sure it isn't happening on a regular basis. Let you kid know that most of the time, things aren't as bad as it was. Give it another shot. This is a great job for HS and college aged kids if we can keep the environment positive.

When I have really bad sidelines or coaches, I usually make a comment. I also comment on professional and well behaved coaches and managers. I also comment on bad field conditions. I know for a fact that someone at Presidio actually reads these comments because I have been contacted for more info or clarification.

I do the same thing and have had the same experience. I actually always leave a comment about the sideline and coach behavior. I like to reward the good ones and feel that it gives more credibility to my calling out the ones that need corrective action.

Usually, it is something like "Both coaches and spectators were great". I put this in the electronic comments and if it was exceptional (good or bad), it also goes in the e-mail with the game card. I've gotten follow up phone calls on these messages and I know one circuit director who forwards good and bad comments to DOC's for clubs.

 

[Definitelynotanotherref]

Really? I would think this would be obvious. If a kid is punished for doing something that's actually good, they lean not to do it. I saw this a lot last year in the DA (which doesn't use ARs at U12). Kids would hold and bend their run perfectly, get called for offside a couple of times (because from the ref's pov, how could they be in that much space if they weren't offside?) and then stop making the run altogether. Same with holding the line while defending. The line stays high, steps up before the pass, but the ref doesn't call the offside. What do the kids learn? A high line doesn't work if the ref can't see it, so they play deeper and deeper to cover for the ref's mistake.

I'm not blaming the refs. I'm not demanding perfection. I'm stating a fact. Repeated missed calls teaches bad soccer.

Apparently kids are incapable of flexibility? They shouldn't learn how to adjust to different styles. I tell those kids every time I ref them that when it comes to out of bounds and offside I am guessing. So I implore them more than ever to play to the whistle. I don't know about my peers. I tell them if it is close, I will opt for no call. That is the opposite of what you say the rest of my peers do. So it still comes down to adaptation every game.

And this league is the expection. Most of the time the "bad calls" last only a game. And we all know that common addage about the definition of insanity.

U12 DA has made it more apparent than ever this year that the scores matter very little. With the 1 ref, the subs on the fly, the 2 team rotating roster. It is very obvious that the purpose of this league is development not winning. If the kids are changing the way they play good soccer just because of the unique situation of the league, then they are not being coached properly.

The leagues rules are set up to not punish coaches with experimenting like putting defenders as a winger for a game. Experimenting with different roster iterations. Even goalies. They are not penalized for leaving thre weaker goalie as the starter. Focus on good soccer and don't care about the score or calls. Focus on development.

 

[End of the Line]

You've missed the point. I'm not angry. I'm not blaming refs for being human. I'm not demanding perfection. I'm stating a fact.

I think I captured the point perfectly. The point is that some people take their kids' youth soccer games way too seriously, have no sense of humor or perspective, and could really use some Xanax. Your kids did not unlearn the offsides rule or become so discouraged that they gave up making runs in future games simply because they played in a game with a bad ref. If anything, they are learning a valuable lesson that life is not always fair and, when it isn't, they should adapt. They should also be learning to take advantage when they're the forward who can get away being offsides, or the defender who can get away with securing incorrect offsides calls.

I suspect you are one of those people who takes soccer so seriously that you refer to the soccer rulebook as "the laws of the game".

 

[MWN]

I think I captured the point perfectly. The point is that some people take their kids' youth soccer games way too seriously, have no sense of humor or perspective, and could really use some Xanax. Your kids did not unlearn the offsides rule or become so discouraged that they gave up making runs in future games simply because they played in a game with a bad ref. If anything, they are learning a valuable lesson that life is not always fair and, when it isn't, they should adapt. They should also be learning to take advantage when they're the forward who can get away being offsides, or the defender who can get away with securing incorrect offsides calls.

I suspect you are one of those people who takes soccer so seriously that you refer to the soccer rulebook as "the laws of the game".

So far, I have liked many of the things you have said/posted. The whole ACL thread was a bit entertaining and the science is there confirming a higher incidence of non-contact ACL injuries in one gender vs. the other. That said, little zingers to a group/class of people are fine, but individual zingers will quickly degrade the conversation. Consider making a modification.

The soccer rule book is actually called the Laws of the Game.

 

[watfly]

Some clubs have a policy where their parents don't sit on the side where the AR is running, and I'll put my youth AR there.

One thousand times yes! Why is it so f'ing hard for leagues to understand this concept. I'm all about individual accountability, but the reality is that it isn't working. Leagues, please mandate that each team sits on opposite sidelines with their parents to the left of the center line. Let the AR's have the right touchline to themselves. This isn't a magic bullet but it will help with a lot of issues. This is such simple common sense, and an easy to implement approach to eliminate some unnecessary parent and ref interaction.

 

[baldref]

One thousand times yes! Why is it so f'ing hard for leagues to understand this concept. I'm all about individual accountability, but the reality is that it isn't working. Leagues, please mandate that each team sits on opposite sidelines with their parents to the left of the center line. Let the AR's have the right touchline to themselves. This isn't a magic bullet but it will help with a lot of issues. This is such simple common sense, and an easy to implement approach to eliminate some unnecessary parent and ref interaction.

and my buff frame won't be blocking your view as i sprint by like carl lewis

 

[End of the Line]

So far, I have liked many of the things you have said/posted. The whole ACL thread was a bit entertaining and the science is there confirming a higher incidence of non-contact ACL injuries in one gender vs. the other. That said, little zingers to a group/class of people are fine, but individual zingers will quickly degrade the conversation. Consider making a modification.

The soccer rule book is actually called the Laws of the Game.

Your point is taken and I will consider it, but only because you tend to say good stuff and make the effort to flatter me. This was an interesting interaction for sure. Certainly, I could have posted "I respectfully disagree with your opinion. I think most children will not be adversely impacted in their ability to discern how to best approach their runs in future games if they are forced to adapt to a bad ref in a game. Refs are just doing their best, are paid very little and deserve a ton of latitude." Such a response is completely obvious, lacks value and, frankly, shouldn't need to be said at all. Alternatively, I could have been a complete jerk and said "that's one of the dumbest things I've heard in a while". I'm a little offended that comment was insufficient to merit a rebuke from you compared to my response (that got a bunch of likes by the way), but I won't hold it against you. Regardless, I'm not sure I am responsible for this conversation jumping the rails. Sure, we both knew where this was likely to go with my first comment, but is it really my fault that people say stupid things and are so serious that they can't take some ribbing? Maybe I can put the fun back in the sport and also run off the people who make it insufferable.

Which brings me back to the "Laws of the Game". Of course I know the name of the name of FIFA's rulebook. Speaking of pretension and an over-inflated sense of importance, did you know that the very first sentence of the rulebook is "Football is the greatest game on earth"? C'mon everyone. They're just rules for a game being played by your kid. The MLB baseball rulebook introduction, in contrast, explains it applies to only to pros and that youth organizations can look to their rules but modify according to their own needs. How refreshing that a professional sport doesn't dictate how, when and where a 9 year old gets to play it. The entire culture of soccer is ridiculous and too serious, whether its complaining how refs are ruining their children, the title of the rulebook, the incessant need on the men's side for the US to better at a sport in which we've never been good in the entire history of time, the belief the sky is falling on the women's side every time we "only" win the WC but fail to trounce every opponent by at least 4 goals, and with a commensurate amount of style and grace required to pay appropriate homage to the "beautiful game" (another term that should be banned forever). Relax. It's just a game. That ref you're complaining about was doing their best, and that is all you can expect for your $3.

 

[focomoso]

I think I captured the point perfectly. The point is that some people take their kids' youth soccer games way too seriously, have no sense of humor or perspective, and could really use some Xanax. Your kids did not unlearn the offsides rule or become so discouraged that they gave up making runs in future games simply because they played in a game with a bad ref. If anything, they are learning a valuable lesson that life is not always fair and, when it isn't, they should adapt. They should also be learning to take advantage when they're the forward who can get away being offsides, or the defender who can get away with securing incorrect offsides calls.

I suspect you are one of those people who takes soccer so seriously that you refer to the soccer rulebook as "the laws of the game".

Nope. You clearly did miss my point. See my near rant above about how little the outcome of these games matter. Trying to guess how someone thinks from a couple of posts on a form usually fails.

"...they should adapt..."

Right, and they do. That's my point. They adapt to their situation and those adaptations often make them lazy or keep them from trying things because they know they're going to get an incorrect call.

I seem to have unintentionally hit a nerve and that wasn't my intention.

 

[focomoso]

Apparently kids are incapable of flexibility? They shouldn't learn how to adjust to different styles. I tell those kids every time I ref them that when it comes to out of bounds and offside I am guessing. So I implore them more than ever to play to the whistle. I don't know about my peers. I tell them if it is close, I will opt for no call. That is the opposite of what you say the rest of my peers do. So it still comes down to adaptation every game.

And this league is the expection. Most of the time the "bad calls" last only a game. And we all know that common addage about the definition of insanity.

U12 DA has made it more apparent than ever this year that the scores matter very little. With the 1 ref, the subs on the fly, the 2 team rotating roster. It is very obvious that the purpose of this league is development not winning. If the kids are changing the way they play good soccer just because of the unique situation of the league, then they are not being coached properly.

The leagues rules are set up to not punish coaches with experimenting like putting defenders as a winger for a game. Experimenting with different roster iterations. Even goalies. They are not penalized for leaving thre weaker goalie as the starter. Focus on good soccer and don't care about the score or calls. Focus on development.

I think you may have misunderstood what I posted. I fully agree that the outcomes of these games are meaningless. I said so in my post. I don't care who wins or looses, especially in U12 DA. What I care about is that kids play good soccer and while I agree that they're going to have to adapt to refs their entire careers, we've had refs that clearly don't understand how the offside rule works and when that happens, it affects how the kids play - which is the important part.

Again, I seem to have touched a nerve and I didn't mean to. This is just an observation I've made from watching a lot of youth soccer. While the results don't matter, the kids don't like to loose on the day (who does?) and they adapt their play to match the ref. If the reffing is good, they will adapt to match that. If it's bad, they'll adapt accordingly.

 

[Paul Spacey]

Which brings me back to the "Laws of the Game". Of course I know the name of the name of FIFA's rulebook. Speaking of pretension and an over-inflated sense of importance, did you know that the very first sentence of the rulebook is "Football is the greatest game on earth"? C'mon everyone. They're just rules for a game being played by young...MLB baseball rulebook introduction, in contrast, explains it applies to only to pros and that youth organizations can look to their rules but modify according to their own needs. How refreshing that a professional sport doesn't dictate how, when and where a 9 year old gets to play it. The entire culture of soccer is ridiculous and too serious, whether its complaining how refs are ruining their children, the title of the rulebook, the incessant need on the men's side for the US to better at a sport in which we've never been good in the entire history of time, the belief the sky is falling on the women's side every time we "only" win the WC but fail to trounce every opponent by at least 4 goals, and with a commensurate amount of style and grace required to pay appropriate homage to the "beautiful game" (another term that should be banned forever). Relax. It's just a game. That ref you're complaining about was doing their best, and that is all you can expect for your $3.

Sounds a bit like perhaps you’re not that keen on soccer but feel baseball is ‘the worlds game’ instead...I guess it does have the WORLD Series (see what I did there?)...Soccer just happens to be the most popular sport in the world; by a long, long, loooong way. So to call it the greatest game on earth (though not technically correct as that is subjective), maybe isn’t stretching too far IMO.

Hope you don’t mind the ‘ribbing’...

 

[Surfref]

F’ing again!! Two referees I worked with today were lazy, did not run and not up to date on the LOTG especially Law 11. One guy literally stayed in or near the center circle for most of the game. I think these idiots forget that we get paid to do a job. If they worked as poorly during their normal job they would get fired.

 

[baldref]

F’ing again!! Two referees I worked with today were lazy, did not run and not up to date on the LOTG especially Law 11. One guy literally stayed in or near the center circle for most of the game. I think these idiots forget that we get paid to do a job. If they worked as poorly during their normal job they would get fired.

i had a couple of decent young men for my first two. one had the center in the first match and did reasonably well. we were both Ar's in the third match and at the end of that game, lost badly by a sd united team, some moron assistant coach decided to berate the young man. i sprinted across from my line and got in his face. hopefully our center will write him up as i asked him to. i just don't get it. that team played horribly so the ass coach wants to scream at some kid with the flag like it was his fault?

 

[watfly]

F’ing again!! Two referees I worked with today were lazy, did not run and not up to date on the LOTG especially Law 11. One guy literally stayed in or near the center circle for most of the game. I think these idiots forget that we get paid to do a job. If they worked as poorly during their normal job they would get fired.

Come work the DA12 games, no other refs to worry about but yourself. It won't fill a full slate but might be a good break and you'll see some decent soccer.

 

[baldref]

Come work the DA12 games, no other refs to worry about but yourself. It won't fill a full slate but might be a good break and you'll see some decent soccer.

I had. U10 7v7 solo yesterday

It was a girls team and a boys team
Really fun game
Good soccer

 

[dyzio03]

I personally never had a problem applying the laws and my own interpretations were based largely on my experiences as a player.

Long thread and I'm surprised nobody brought this up yet. I know this can be a point of contention, but I do believe that those who played the game themselves do make better referees, especially at the higher levels of the game. Like many said before, a lot is left to the referee's interpretation, and having the past context can help apply the rules in a way the players on the field expect it. Totally understand that we don't have enough referees as is and can't make this a condition of employment, and that there are always exceptions, but personally I can almost always tell the difference between a ref who themselves played at a high level and one who did not (both as a player in the past and as a spectator in youth soccer more recently).

 

[Surfref]

i had a couple of decent young men for my first two. one had the center in the first match and did reasonably well. we were both Ar's in the third match and at the end of that game, lost badly by a sd united team, some moron assistant coach decided to berate the young man. i sprinted across from my line and got in his face. hopefully our center will write him up as i asked him to. i just don't get it. that team played horribly so the ass coach wants to scream at some kid with the flag like it was his fault?

I would send an email to a Jack D. and C.c. PM and DW. Let them know what happened. Jack will take care of the Ass Coach especially since a youth referee was involved. PM or DW should call the youth ref and tell him good job and that the Ass Coach’s yelling has been addressed by the league.

 

[baldref]

I would send an email to a Jack D. and C.c. PM and DW. Let them know what happened. Jack will take care of the Ass Coach especially since a youth referee was involved. PM or DW should call the youth ref and tell him good job and that the Ass Coach’s yelling has been addressed by the league.

I already sent the email to P. Didn't think to include Jack.....

 

[ajaffe]

Dang, you beat me too it. I was going to mention the same thing. I wish all of the leagues let the referees provide an input that is only seen by the league. When I have really bad sidelines or coaches, I usually make a comment. I also comment on professional and well behaved coaches and managers. I also comment on bad field conditions. I know for a fact that someone at Presidio actually reads these comments because I have been contacted for more info or clarification.

Uh oh

 

[MijoPlumber]

I would send an email to a Jack D. and C.c. PM and DW. Let them know what happened. Jack will take care of the Ass Coach especially since a youth referee was involved. PM or DW should call the youth ref and tell him good job and that the Ass Coach’s yelling has been addressed by the league.

Mijo, Bad coach making bad behavior needs to be fined and pay up of get the boot. They need to set the example for the kids.