Referees - what can we all do to improve the situation?

[watfly]

With regard to all this rating system talk, the problem is:

1) Unless the game is filmed, ratings submitted by the teams are suspect given the bias of the losing/winning coach.
2) Most coaches at the non-DA and ECNL level do not have a firm grasp on the current IFAB, thus, ratings would be suspect.
3) A referee at the typical league/youth level is asked to referee between 3 to 5 games. Stamina on game 1 changes by the time we get to game 3 or 4 or 5.
4) Exposing younger referees to ratings would create a negative impact that would definitely make it harder to swell the ranks.

With regard to the thought experiment of weeding out certain referees its been underway for years but we have a problem, which is numbers are too low because of bad behavior.

I think most of you are seriously missing the point when it comes to youth soccer. We basically have 2 levels: Elite (DA/ECNL/ODP) and everybody else. This is supposed to be fun. Flight 3, Flight 2, Flight 1, Discovery, Bronze, Silver, Silver-Elite, Gold Premiere, AA-C, AA-A, etc., are all just advanced forms of recreational soccer. We are trying to create an environment where young people want to play soccer and hopefully, we find a 10 or 20 young people that have what it takes to go pro. Everybody else is supposed to just be having fun, getting exercise, learning life lesson about competition, spending times with family and friends, maybe getting seen by a college coach, all while playing soccer in MEANINGLESS games.

Whether the referee is good or bad, whether the coach is a screamer or passive spectator, whether the parents shout positive encouragement or are world-class A-holes all play into a single factor ... did the kids have fun playing a meaningless youth soccer game. That's it.

Every single referee is a member of a Referee Association. Every single fat, slow, bad referee is already known by that Referee Association. The better Referee Associations attempt to put the less capable referees on easier games. The leagues hire the Associations and the Assignors do their best to match the right referee with the right level. The fundamental problem for all the association is YOU F'ING parents and coaches are driving away our young referees before they can get the experience with your DUMBASS and INSULTING comments.

On behalf of every single referee, I implore you to just stop. SHUT UP. If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything. YOU PARENTS are ruing our chances to create better referees. Please stop.

I don't think anyone is proposing that coaches decide whether or not a ref should be given the boot. Only a qualified assessor should make that decision, but its impossible for an assessor to cover all the refs, nor do the majority of refs need to be evaluated. Coach reviews, taken with with the right amount of professional skepticism, would be a useful tool for identifying refs that may need to be investigated.

I appreciate that you're probably using the term "meaningless" to make a point, but its very troubling that someone who is paid to do a job would approach the job as if its outcome was meaningless. (See prior post in this thread where a college ref considered a youth game a "warm down"). Do parents overreact and fail to put things in perspective, absolutely. But the games aren't completely without meaning to the ones involved. Could you imagine if our coaches took the approach that the games are meaningless?

My son plays DA, so what, that doesn't mean he is entitled to a more competent ref then his peers in Presidio. That would be the height of arrogance to have that attitude. Everyone regardless of age and level deserve very competent refs.

 

[MWN]

I don't think anyone is proposing that coaches decide whether or not a ref should be given the boot. Only a qualified assessor should make that decision, but its impossible for an assessor to cover all the refs, nor do the majority of refs need to be evaluated. Coach reviews, taken with with the right amount of professional skepticism, would be a useful tool for identifying refs that may need to be investigated.

I appreciate that you're probably using the term "meaningless" to make a point, but its very troubling that someone who is paid to do a job would approach the job as if its outcome was meaningless. (See prior post in this thread where a college ref considered a youth game a "warm down"). Do parents overreact and fail to put things in perspective, absolutely. But the games aren't completely without meaning to the ones involved. Could you imagine if our coaches took the approach that the games are meaningless?

My son plays DA, so what, that doesn't mean he is entitled to a more competent ref then his peers in Presidio. That would be the height of arrogance to have that attitude. Everyone regardless of age and level deserve very competent refs.

I respectfully disagree. Kids in the DA are entitled to referees that are more competent than his peers playing in Presidio AA-C and kids playing Presidio AA-A should get slightly more competent referees than the AA-C kids, and olders should get more competent referees than youngers. College referees should be more competent than HS and FIFA World Cup referees should be the most competent.

The above doesn't mean that referees should not do their best, only that "their best" may not be good enough for the higher levels. Take me for example. I'm older and fatter than the average 25 year old referee (half my age). We may have the same knowledge, but that 25 year old has far more stamina than I do given my love of beer and steak. So, I don't referee U15+ boys because I can't keep up. I prefer to referee U9 or U7 because I can keep up and my style works well with keeping the sidelines in order. My assignor gets pissed because he knows I can control the coaches and sidelines with the best of them, but I don't want to referee those games that I believe I'm physically unfit for. So what happens is some of those games get referees that have less experience but are fitter. No problem for me, I avoid parents complaining that their referee had a beer belly and couldn't chase down a 17 year old speedster, and they get a younger kid with the fitness but may not have the game management skill due to age/experience.

The games are meaningless in the grand scheme. The games exist purely for fun and development. We won't find a cure for world hunger, won't cure cancer, won't win a World Cup prize of millions, and basically won't get anything out of these youth soccer games but a diversion for a few hours. Parents and coaches that are taking these children soccer games too seriously are Idiots with a capital "I".

 

[watfly]

I respectfully disagree. Kids in the DA are entitled to referees that are more competent than his peers playing in Presidio AA-C and kids playing Presidio AA-A should get slightly more competent referees than the AA-C kids, and olders should get more competent referees than youngers. College referees should be more competent than HS and FIFA World Cup referees should be the most competent.

The above doesn't mean that referees should not do their best, only that "their best" may not be good enough for the higher levels. Take me for example. I'm older and fatter than the average 25 year old referee (half my age). We may have the same knowledge, but that 25 year old has far more stamina than I do given my love of beer and steak. So, I don't referee U15+ boys because I can't keep up. I prefer to referee U9 or U7 because I can keep up and my style works well with keeping the sidelines in order. My assignor gets pissed because he knows I can control the coaches and sidelines with the best of them, but I don't want to referee those games that I believe I'm physically unfit for. So what happens is some of those games get referees that have less experience but are fitter. No problem for me, I avoid parents complaining that their referee had a beer belly and couldn't chase down a 17 year old speedster, and they get a younger kid with the fitness but may not have the game management skill due to age/experience.

The games are meaningless in the grand scheme. The games exist purely for fun and development. We won't find a cure for world hunger, won't cure cancer, won't win a World Cup prize of millions, and basically won't get anything out of these youth soccer games but a diversion for a few hours. Parents and coaches that are taking these children soccer games too seriously are Idiots with a capital "I".

I completely agree that refs should be assigned based on level of complexity and required fitness. However, I don't believe that an outcome of a DA game is anymore or less meaningful than a Presidio game and that refs shouldn't be assigned on that basis for youth soccer.

 

[JCM]

I completely agree that refs should be assigned based on level of complexity and required fitness. However, I don't believe that an outcome of a DA game is anymore or less meaningful than a Presidio game and that refs shouldn't be assigned on that basis for youth soccer.

With regard to all this rating system talk, the problem is:


Every single referee is a member of a Referee Association. Every single fat, slow, bad referee is already known by that Referee Association. The better Referee Associations attempt to put the less capable referees on easier games. The leagues hire the Associations and the Assignors do their best to match the right referee with the right level. The fundamental problem for all the association is YOU F'ING parents and coaches are driving away our young referees before they can get the experience with your DUMBASS and INSULTING comments.

On behalf of every single referee, I implore you to just stop. SHUT UP. If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything. YOU PARENTS are ruing our chances to create better referees. Please stop.

You took the words out of my mouth. These games really do mean nothing. I've got one kid that's DA, the other is in the lowest league in town. They both want to win, but they also both move on with their lives right after the game as do their teammates.

If you are a parent and you are this vested in the outcome of their game you are ruining it for them. Read the thread about parents whose kids have quit. I guarantee some of those kids stopped playing because Mom and/or Dad cared more about it than them, put too much pressure on them and/or embarrassed them with their behavior. If you say anything, say "I loved watching you play" and let them succeed or fail on their own. Yelling at a ref or critiquing their game isn't supporting them.

 

[Surfref]

.......I'm not sure if there was a way for refs to share notes about a team or parent but it might help. If a ref before a game knew that that team X had parents that are abusive then they could talk to the coach and team manager before the game before it starts to escalate. "Hey Coach. I heard we had a rough game last week. I'm here to have good game but would appreciate it we kept the sidelines positive."

Another option would be for every parent/coach that gets thrown out, that team is fined 100 dollars for the first offense, 200 for the second, etc. This puts the responsibility on the team to handle the problem parents versus putting it on the refs.

If there is a ref shortage, the very simple laws of supply and demand would dictate that you need to raise wages, but I'll digress.

Referees do talk about the teams (players, coaches and spectators) that we have problems with and also the good ones. I was at a referee meeting last night and I walked up on four referees talking about a team (coach and spectators) that they had problems with recently. I asked what club they were talking about and they said Temecula United. I said, "Let me guess, G15?" and the other ref said, "We have all had problems with that coach and the parents." As we talked we all realized we have had problems with spectators from Rebels, Slammers and Pats over the past six months. Rebels was the only club of the three that I have not had problems with. So far this fall, I have had no problems with the SDDA/Presidio teams, but have had problems with the SCDSL and ECNL teams. I have some CSL games this weekend, so hopefully I do not have problems with them.

I am all for fining clubs when a coach or spectator is ejected. But, who is going to collect the money, where should that money go, would there be an appeal process? The Cal South leagues (CSL, Presidio, SCDSL, ECNL, DPL, DA) would need to work together and we all know that will never happen. Cal South would have to be the organization to collect the fine.

As for the referee shortage. At the meeting last night they asked all referees with 10+ years of experience to stand up. About 50 refs stood up. Then they asked all refs 50 years old and older to sit down. That left 6 referees standing. That really shows what the problem is, not enough young experienced referees. I have heard that the attrition rate of new referees is 70 percent quit within the first two years. So, there are not enough young referees in the pipeline to replace the aging referees. Just sit there and enjoy the game and stop yelling at the referee, and maybe we will get more of these young referees to stick around and get experience.

 

[focomoso]

You took the words out of my mouth. These games really do mean nothing. I've got one kid that's DA, the other is in the lowest league in town. They both want to win, but they also both move on with their lives right after the game as do their teammates.

If you are a parent and you are this vested in the outcome of their game you are ruining it for them. Read the thread about parents whose kids have quit. I guarantee some of those kids stopped playing because Mom and/or Dad cared more about it than them, put too much pressure on them and/or embarrassed them with their behavior. If you say anything, say "I loved watching you play" and let them succeed or fail on their own. Yelling at a ref or critiquing their game isn't supporting them.

This!

My son has been on teams with parents who care more about the outcomes of games than their kids' wellbeing. We had a game in Lancaster early on where the reffing was bad and the other team played kick ball and we got our butts handed to us and the parents (most of whom had never played soccer) surrounded our coach after the game demanding answers as to why we didn't boot the ball up to our star striker and blah, blah, blah. During this very serious parent meeting, the kids were over by the bathrooms playing "three flags up" and having a blast. The game was already in the past for them. It was the parents that were teaching the kids to cling to bad outcomes. The kids didn't give a sh--.

Another example, also early on. We played a team that - some parents suspected - had an over-age player. A few days later, some of the parents got together to see what they could do to lodge a protest. One of the other parent's kids asked what they were talking about. His dad went into a long thing, "you remember that huge kid that ran over everyone and scored all those goals...? We think he may be too old, blah, blah, blah." The kid was like, "Which game was that again?" The kids don't give a sh--.

And they shouldn't.

I know it's hard to resist getting caught up in "fan culture" because that's how our parents were (usually), but the more my son plays and the better he does, the more clear it is to me that the outcomes of these games do not matter at all. What matters is what you learn while playing.

 

[focomoso]

That said... bad reffing can teach kids bad soccer. If your well-timed run is repeatedly called offside or your good tackle is called a foul (or vice versa)... over time, this instills bad habits in kids.

 

[Eagle33]

That said... bad reffing can teach kids bad soccer. If your well-timed run is repeatedly called offside or your good tackle is called a foul (or vice versa)... over time, this instills bad habits in kids.

that's one of the dumbest things I've heard in while

 

[watfly]

I fully realize that the odds of the leagues or associations implementing a ref rating system are slim to none for various reasons (motivation, priorities, shortage of refs, fear of bias, logistics etc). And the odds of this happening are probably slim to none as well, but I think a rating system for coach and sideline would be appropriate as well. The refs could provide an "acceptable or unacceptable" rating for both coach and sideline. After so many unacceptable ratings, and after a review of the reasons for the ratings, the coach is suspended for a game, and after so many unacceptable ratings for the sideline, no parents are allowed for a game. That would kill parents not to be on the sideline and to me would be much more effective then a fine. Hell, there are parents out there that would be happy to cover a fine if they could bitch at refs. I believe many leagues keep track of yellow cards, how much harder would it be to keep track of a simple acceptable, unacceptable rating? (Easy for me to say since I wouldn't be the one doing it).

 

[baldref]

I fully realize that the odds of the leagues or associations implementing a ref rating system are slim to none for various reasons (motivation, priorities, shortage of refs, fear of bias, logistics etc). And the odds of this happening are probably slim to none as well, but I think a rating system for coach and sideline would be appropriate as well. The refs could provide an "acceptable or unacceptable" rating for both coach and sideline. After so many unacceptable ratings, and after a review of the reasons for the ratings, the coach is suspended for a game, and after so many unacceptable ratings for the sideline, no parents are allowed for a game. That would kill parents not to be on the sideline and to me would be much more effective then a fine. Hell, there are parents out there that would be happy to cover a fine if they could bitch at refs. I believe many leagues keep track of yellow cards, how much harder would it be to keep track of a simple acceptable, unacceptable rating? (Easy for me to say since I wouldn't be the one doing it).

In presidio SDDA, there is a comment section in the on line reporting form. They encourage referees to let the league know if the sidelines are less than behaved, or if the field isn’t up to snuff etc.

And of course the team managers can comment on the referees too.....

 

[Paul Spacey]

I fully realize that the odds of the leagues or associations implementing a ref rating system are slim to none for various reasons (motivation, priorities, shortage of refs, fear of bias, logistics etc). And the odds of this happening are probably slim to none as well, but I think a rating system for coach and sideline would be appropriate as well. The refs could provide an "acceptable or unacceptable" rating for both coach and sideline. After so many unacceptable ratings, and after a review of the reasons for the ratings, the coach is suspended for a game, and after so many unacceptable ratings for the sideline, no parents are allowed for a game. That would kill parents not to be on the sideline and to me would be much more effective then a fine. Hell, there are parents out there that would be happy to cover a fine if they could bitch at refs. I believe many leagues keep track of yellow cards, how much harder would it be to keep track of a simple acceptable, unacceptable rating? (Easy for me to say since I wouldn't be the one doing it).

Keeping records, collating them and having someone analyze them is pretty straight forward in this age of technology and as a previous poster mentioned, it could be done by just one person.

Using an app and filling out the details after a game would take all of 30 seconds for refs and coaches. If there is a standardized rating system then everyone should be rated (coaches, refs, sidelines).

The only way it will come about is if there is enough will and desire on the part of leagues and ref associations to drive change and improvement. Right now, I don’t know if that will is there.

It would be interesting to see if we all (parents, coaches, club representatives) could push it along with some encouragement and pressure on the relevant leagues and associations. One thing I’ve noticed in my 6 years here in SoCal is that group pressure tends to get its way more often than not.

 

[jpeter]

WELP ratings like Yelp but has to be both or three ways: coach, refs, spectactors and would like to see the players be able to provide some feedback. If a quiz or some kind of knowledge qualifications would have to be passed before a spectator rating was accepted maybe that would keep them more honest or accurate.

 

[End of the Line]

that's one of the dumbest things I've heard in while

My pro rata share of the referee fee is about $3, and I demand perfection if I'm going to throw around that kind of coin. Given the high stakes, no way I'm putting up with a ref who risks turning my kids into bad soccer players, forces them to face even the slightest adversity by missing calls, or fails to keep the game perfectly under control at all times. These refs are ruining our children's lives. I'm certain one of my kids lost out on a full ride to Stanford because a ref got her totally screwed up on the offsides rule when she was 9.

If you're angry that refs suck overall and need to be better, do your part by getting a ref license and get your butt out there every weekend. Actually don't, because you probably have the absolute wrong demeanor for the job.

 

[Banana Hammock]

As for the referee shortage. At the meeting last night they asked all referees with 10+ years of experience to stand up. About 50 refs stood up. Then they asked all refs 50 years old and older to sit down. That left 6 referees standing. That really shows what the problem is, not enough young experienced referees. I have heard that the attrition rate of new referees is 70 percent quit within the first two years. So, there are not enough young referees in the pipeline to replace the aging referees. Just sit there and enjoy the game and stop yelling at the referee, and maybe we will get more of these young referees to stick around and get experience.

Here is some first hand experience. I have two teenage boys, one started reffing last year and has gotten fairly good and is continuing this year. His brother also wanted to ref with him this year, so he got his license and gear and reffed all of one day. He never went back after first day. I watched those games and there was a complete lack of respect for all the refs. I would never advocate for my kid to quit after one day, but as some of you know teenagers can be quite stubborn and I choose my battles wisely. One could take the abuse and the other one could not or would not. The moral of the story is you reap what you sow. Pretty soon we will be lucky to have two refs per game, three will be a thing of the past. Or maybe one CR and 2 club linesman.

 

[Surfref]

In presidio SDDA, there is a comment section in the on line reporting form. They encourage referees to let the league know if the sidelines are less than behaved, or if the field isn’t up to snuff etc.

And of course the team managers can comment on the referees too.....

Dang, you beat me too it. I was going to mention the same thing. I wish all of the leagues let the referees provide an input that is only seen by the league. When I have really bad sidelines or coaches, I usually make a comment. I also comment on professional and well behaved coaches and managers. I also comment on bad field conditions. I know for a fact that someone at Presidio actually reads these comments because I have been contacted for more info or clarification.

 

[Surfref]

Here is some first hand experience. I have two teenage boys, one started reffing last year and has gotten fairly good and is continuing this year. His brother also wanted to ref with him this year, so he got his license and gear and reffed all of one day. He never went back after first day. I watched those games and there was a complete lack of respect for all the refs. I would never advocate for my kid to quit after one day, but as some of you know teenagers can be quite stubborn and I choose my battles wisely. One could take the abuse and the other one could not or would not. The moral of the story is you reap what you sow. Pretty soon we will be lucky to have two refs per game, three will be a thing of the past. Or maybe one CR and 2 club linesman.

It is really simple, ADULTS SHOULD NEVER YELL AT YOUTH REFEREES. That really makes me sad that a bunch of adults thought it was okay to show a lack of respect and yell at a youth referee. It also pisses me off that those adults thought it was okay to yell at a youth referee. What really pisses me off is that there was an adult(s) referee on those games that did not protect a youth referee. I have had coaches remove entire sidelines of parents because they yelled at a youth referee and have removed coaches for yelling and disrespecting youth referees. The adult referees job is to mentor and protect that youth referee. I really hope you contacted the referee association and assigner and let them know what happened and why your son does not want to referee.

 

[watfly]

Dang, you beat me too it. I was going to mention the same thing. I wish all of the leagues let the referees provide an input that is only seen by the league. When I have really bad sidelines or coaches, I usually make a comment. I also comment on professional and well behaved coaches and managers. I also comment on bad field conditions. I know for a fact that someone at Presidio actually reads these comments because I have been contacted for more info or clarification.

That's great and good to know about the field conditions as well. It sounds like there needs to be a clear and tangible system for evaluating the data and imposing sanctions where necessary.

 

[focomoso]

that's one of the dumbest things I've heard in while

Really? I would think this would be obvious. If a kid is punished for doing something that's actually good, they lean not to do it. I saw this a lot last year in the DA (which doesn't use ARs at U12). Kids would hold and bend their run perfectly, get called for offside a couple of times (because from the ref's pov, how could they be in that much space if they weren't offside?) and then stop making the run altogether. Same with holding the line while defending. The line stays high, steps up before the pass, but the ref doesn't call the offside. What do the kids learn? A high line doesn't work if the ref can't see it, so they play deeper and deeper to cover for the ref's mistake.

I'm not blaming the refs. I'm not demanding perfection. I'm stating a fact. Repeated missed calls teaches bad soccer.

 

[focomoso]

My pro rata share of the referee fee is about $3, and I demand perfection if I'm going to throw around that kind of coin. Given the high stakes, no way I'm putting up with a ref who risks turning my kids into bad soccer players, forces them to face even the slightest adversity by missing calls, or fails to keep the game perfectly under control at all times. These refs are ruining our children's lives. I'm certain one of my kids lost out on a full ride to Stanford because a ref got her totally screwed up on the offsides rule when she was 9.

If you're angry that refs suck overall and need to be better, do your part by getting a ref license and get your butt out there every weekend. Actually don't, because you probably have the absolute wrong demeanor for the job.

You've missed the point. I'm not angry. I'm not blaming refs for being human. I'm not demanding perfection. I'm stating a fact.

 

[Definitelynotanotherref]

I also think adults yelling at adult referees when there are youth AR's can also affect their opinion of the job and whether or not to continue. I definitely remember vicariously associating with my ctr referees as they got bulldozed over with abuse.

I even remember seeing the ctr get yelled at for not overruling my decision. But sure, those parents can sleep at night because they didn't yell at the 16 year old me directly.