Referees - what can we all do to improve the situation?

[focomoso]

You took the words out of my mouth. These games really do mean nothing. I've got one kid that's DA, the other is in the lowest league in town. They both want to win, but they also both move on with their lives right after the game as do their teammates.

If you are a parent and you are this vested in the outcome of their game you are ruining it for them. Read the thread about parents whose kids have quit. I guarantee some of those kids stopped playing because Mom and/or Dad cared more about it than them, put too much pressure on them and/or embarrassed them with their behavior. If you say anything, say "I loved watching you play" and let them succeed or fail on their own. Yelling at a ref or critiquing their game isn't supporting them.

This!

My son has been on teams with parents who care more about the outcomes of games than their kids' wellbeing. We had a game in Lancaster early on where the reffing was bad and the other team played kick ball and we got our butts handed to us and the parents (most of whom had never played soccer) surrounded our coach after the game demanding answers as to why we didn't boot the ball up to our star striker and blah, blah, blah. During this very serious parent meeting, the kids were over by the bathrooms playing "three flags up" and having a blast. The game was already in the past for them. It was the parents that were teaching the kids to cling to bad outcomes. The kids didn't give a sh--.

Another example, also early on. We played a team that - some parents suspected - had an over-age player. A few days later, some of the parents got together to see what they could do to lodge a protest. One of the other parent's kids asked what they were talking about. His dad went into a long thing, "you remember that huge kid that ran over everyone and scored all those goals...? We think he may be too old, blah, blah, blah." The kid was like, "Which game was that again?" The kids don't give a sh--.

And they shouldn't.

I know it's hard to resist getting caught up in "fan culture" because that's how our parents were (usually), but the more my son plays and the better he does, the more clear it is to me that the outcomes of these games do not matter at all. What matters is what you learn while playing.

 

[focomoso]

That said... bad reffing can teach kids bad soccer. If your well-timed run is repeatedly called offside or your good tackle is called a foul (or vice versa)... over time, this instills bad habits in kids.

 

[Eagle33]

That said... bad reffing can teach kids bad soccer. If your well-timed run is repeatedly called offside or your good tackle is called a foul (or vice versa)... over time, this instills bad habits in kids.

that's one of the dumbest things I've heard in while

 

[watfly]

I fully realize that the odds of the leagues or associations implementing a ref rating system are slim to none for various reasons (motivation, priorities, shortage of refs, fear of bias, logistics etc). And the odds of this happening are probably slim to none as well, but I think a rating system for coach and sideline would be appropriate as well. The refs could provide an "acceptable or unacceptable" rating for both coach and sideline. After so many unacceptable ratings, and after a review of the reasons for the ratings, the coach is suspended for a game, and after so many unacceptable ratings for the sideline, no parents are allowed for a game. That would kill parents not to be on the sideline and to me would be much more effective then a fine. Hell, there are parents out there that would be happy to cover a fine if they could bitch at refs. I believe many leagues keep track of yellow cards, how much harder would it be to keep track of a simple acceptable, unacceptable rating? (Easy for me to say since I wouldn't be the one doing it).

 

[baldref]

I fully realize that the odds of the leagues or associations implementing a ref rating system are slim to none for various reasons (motivation, priorities, shortage of refs, fear of bias, logistics etc). And the odds of this happening are probably slim to none as well, but I think a rating system for coach and sideline would be appropriate as well. The refs could provide an "acceptable or unacceptable" rating for both coach and sideline. After so many unacceptable ratings, and after a review of the reasons for the ratings, the coach is suspended for a game, and after so many unacceptable ratings for the sideline, no parents are allowed for a game. That would kill parents not to be on the sideline and to me would be much more effective then a fine. Hell, there are parents out there that would be happy to cover a fine if they could bitch at refs. I believe many leagues keep track of yellow cards, how much harder would it be to keep track of a simple acceptable, unacceptable rating? (Easy for me to say since I wouldn't be the one doing it).

In presidio SDDA, there is a comment section in the on line reporting form. They encourage referees to let the league know if the sidelines are less than behaved, or if the field isn’t up to snuff etc.

And of course the team managers can comment on the referees too.....

 

[Paul Spacey]

I fully realize that the odds of the leagues or associations implementing a ref rating system are slim to none for various reasons (motivation, priorities, shortage of refs, fear of bias, logistics etc). And the odds of this happening are probably slim to none as well, but I think a rating system for coach and sideline would be appropriate as well. The refs could provide an "acceptable or unacceptable" rating for both coach and sideline. After so many unacceptable ratings, and after a review of the reasons for the ratings, the coach is suspended for a game, and after so many unacceptable ratings for the sideline, no parents are allowed for a game. That would kill parents not to be on the sideline and to me would be much more effective then a fine. Hell, there are parents out there that would be happy to cover a fine if they could bitch at refs. I believe many leagues keep track of yellow cards, how much harder would it be to keep track of a simple acceptable, unacceptable rating? (Easy for me to say since I wouldn't be the one doing it).

Keeping records, collating them and having someone analyze them is pretty straight forward in this age of technology and as a previous poster mentioned, it could be done by just one person.

Using an app and filling out the details after a game would take all of 30 seconds for refs and coaches. If there is a standardized rating system then everyone should be rated (coaches, refs, sidelines).

The only way it will come about is if there is enough will and desire on the part of leagues and ref associations to drive change and improvement. Right now, I don’t know if that will is there.

It would be interesting to see if we all (parents, coaches, club representatives) could push it along with some encouragement and pressure on the relevant leagues and associations. One thing I’ve noticed in my 6 years here in SoCal is that group pressure tends to get its way more often than not.

 

[jpeter]

WELP ratings like Yelp but has to be both or three ways: coach, refs, spectactors and would like to see the players be able to provide some feedback. If a quiz or some kind of knowledge qualifications would have to be passed before a spectator rating was accepted maybe that would keep them more honest or accurate.

 

[End of the Line]

that's one of the dumbest things I've heard in while

My pro rata share of the referee fee is about $3, and I demand perfection if I'm going to throw around that kind of coin. Given the high stakes, no way I'm putting up with a ref who risks turning my kids into bad soccer players, forces them to face even the slightest adversity by missing calls, or fails to keep the game perfectly under control at all times. These refs are ruining our children's lives. I'm certain one of my kids lost out on a full ride to Stanford because a ref got her totally screwed up on the offsides rule when she was 9.

If you're angry that refs suck overall and need to be better, do your part by getting a ref license and get your butt out there every weekend. Actually don't, because you probably have the absolute wrong demeanor for the job.

 

[Banana Hammock]

As for the referee shortage. At the meeting last night they asked all referees with 10+ years of experience to stand up. About 50 refs stood up. Then they asked all refs 50 years old and older to sit down. That left 6 referees standing. That really shows what the problem is, not enough young experienced referees. I have heard that the attrition rate of new referees is 70 percent quit within the first two years. So, there are not enough young referees in the pipeline to replace the aging referees. Just sit there and enjoy the game and stop yelling at the referee, and maybe we will get more of these young referees to stick around and get experience.

Here is some first hand experience. I have two teenage boys, one started reffing last year and has gotten fairly good and is continuing this year. His brother also wanted to ref with him this year, so he got his license and gear and reffed all of one day. He never went back after first day. I watched those games and there was a complete lack of respect for all the refs. I would never advocate for my kid to quit after one day, but as some of you know teenagers can be quite stubborn and I choose my battles wisely. One could take the abuse and the other one could not or would not. The moral of the story is you reap what you sow. Pretty soon we will be lucky to have two refs per game, three will be a thing of the past. Or maybe one CR and 2 club linesman.

 

[Surfref]

In presidio SDDA, there is a comment section in the on line reporting form. They encourage referees to let the league know if the sidelines are less than behaved, or if the field isn’t up to snuff etc.

And of course the team managers can comment on the referees too.....

Dang, you beat me too it. I was going to mention the same thing. I wish all of the leagues let the referees provide an input that is only seen by the league. When I have really bad sidelines or coaches, I usually make a comment. I also comment on professional and well behaved coaches and managers. I also comment on bad field conditions. I know for a fact that someone at Presidio actually reads these comments because I have been contacted for more info or clarification.

 

[Surfref]

Here is some first hand experience. I have two teenage boys, one started reffing last year and has gotten fairly good and is continuing this year. His brother also wanted to ref with him this year, so he got his license and gear and reffed all of one day. He never went back after first day. I watched those games and there was a complete lack of respect for all the refs. I would never advocate for my kid to quit after one day, but as some of you know teenagers can be quite stubborn and I choose my battles wisely. One could take the abuse and the other one could not or would not. The moral of the story is you reap what you sow. Pretty soon we will be lucky to have two refs per game, three will be a thing of the past. Or maybe one CR and 2 club linesman.

It is really simple, ADULTS SHOULD NEVER YELL AT YOUTH REFEREES. That really makes me sad that a bunch of adults thought it was okay to show a lack of respect and yell at a youth referee. It also pisses me off that those adults thought it was okay to yell at a youth referee. What really pisses me off is that there was an adult(s) referee on those games that did not protect a youth referee. I have had coaches remove entire sidelines of parents because they yelled at a youth referee and have removed coaches for yelling and disrespecting youth referees. The adult referees job is to mentor and protect that youth referee. I really hope you contacted the referee association and assigner and let them know what happened and why your son does not want to referee.

 

[watfly]

Dang, you beat me too it. I was going to mention the same thing. I wish all of the leagues let the referees provide an input that is only seen by the league. When I have really bad sidelines or coaches, I usually make a comment. I also comment on professional and well behaved coaches and managers. I also comment on bad field conditions. I know for a fact that someone at Presidio actually reads these comments because I have been contacted for more info or clarification.

That's great and good to know about the field conditions as well. It sounds like there needs to be a clear and tangible system for evaluating the data and imposing sanctions where necessary.

 

[focomoso]

that's one of the dumbest things I've heard in while

Really? I would think this would be obvious. If a kid is punished for doing something that's actually good, they lean not to do it. I saw this a lot last year in the DA (which doesn't use ARs at U12). Kids would hold and bend their run perfectly, get called for offside a couple of times (because from the ref's pov, how could they be in that much space if they weren't offside?) and then stop making the run altogether. Same with holding the line while defending. The line stays high, steps up before the pass, but the ref doesn't call the offside. What do the kids learn? A high line doesn't work if the ref can't see it, so they play deeper and deeper to cover for the ref's mistake.

I'm not blaming the refs. I'm not demanding perfection. I'm stating a fact. Repeated missed calls teaches bad soccer.

 

[focomoso]

My pro rata share of the referee fee is about $3, and I demand perfection if I'm going to throw around that kind of coin. Given the high stakes, no way I'm putting up with a ref who risks turning my kids into bad soccer players, forces them to face even the slightest adversity by missing calls, or fails to keep the game perfectly under control at all times. These refs are ruining our children's lives. I'm certain one of my kids lost out on a full ride to Stanford because a ref got her totally screwed up on the offsides rule when she was 9.

If you're angry that refs suck overall and need to be better, do your part by getting a ref license and get your butt out there every weekend. Actually don't, because you probably have the absolute wrong demeanor for the job.

You've missed the point. I'm not angry. I'm not blaming refs for being human. I'm not demanding perfection. I'm stating a fact.

 

[Definitelynotanotherref]

I also think adults yelling at adult referees when there are youth AR's can also affect their opinion of the job and whether or not to continue. I definitely remember vicariously associating with my ctr referees as they got bulldozed over with abuse.

I even remember seeing the ctr get yelled at for not overruling my decision. But sure, those parents can sleep at night because they didn't yell at the 16 year old me directly.

 

[baldref]

Dang, you beat me too it. I was going to mention the same thing. I wish all of the leagues let the referees provide an input that is only seen by the league. When I have really bad sidelines or coaches, I usually make a comment. I also comment on professional and well behaved coaches and managers. I also comment on bad field conditions. I know for a fact that someone at Presidio actually reads these comments because I have been contacted for more info or clarification.

I do as well. Good or bad, I leave feedback. Last one read: Great well behaved sidelines for both clubs

 

[GunninGopher]

One could take the abuse and the other one could not or would not. The moral of the story is you reap what you sow. Pretty soon we will be lucky to have two refs per game, three will be a thing of the past. Or maybe one CR and 2 club linesman.

If I have a youth referee as an AR, right before the game I say, from the field, "Coach, you are reminded that you have a youth referee on your sideline." Most the parents know what that means. I've never had a problem with youth referee abuse since I've started that. Some clubs have a policy where their parents don't sit on the side where the AR is running, and I'll put my youth AR there.

PLEASE let your assignor know what happened. They will make sure that your kid gets put with an AR that will ensure appropriate behavior and they might be interested in contacting the club to make sure it isn't happening on a regular basis. Let you kid know that most of the time, things aren't as bad as it was. Give it another shot. This is a great job for HS and college aged kids if we can keep the environment positive.

When I have really bad sidelines or coaches, I usually make a comment. I also comment on professional and well behaved coaches and managers. I also comment on bad field conditions. I know for a fact that someone at Presidio actually reads these comments because I have been contacted for more info or clarification.

I do the same thing and have had the same experience. I actually always leave a comment about the sideline and coach behavior. I like to reward the good ones and feel that it gives more credibility to my calling out the ones that need corrective action.

Usually, it is something like "Both coaches and spectators were great". I put this in the electronic comments and if it was exceptional (good or bad), it also goes in the e-mail with the game card. I've gotten follow up phone calls on these messages and I know one circuit director who forwards good and bad comments to DOC's for clubs.

 

[Definitelynotanotherref]

Really? I would think this would be obvious. If a kid is punished for doing something that's actually good, they lean not to do it. I saw this a lot last year in the DA (which doesn't use ARs at U12). Kids would hold and bend their run perfectly, get called for offside a couple of times (because from the ref's pov, how could they be in that much space if they weren't offside?) and then stop making the run altogether. Same with holding the line while defending. The line stays high, steps up before the pass, but the ref doesn't call the offside. What do the kids learn? A high line doesn't work if the ref can't see it, so they play deeper and deeper to cover for the ref's mistake.

I'm not blaming the refs. I'm not demanding perfection. I'm stating a fact. Repeated missed calls teaches bad soccer.

Apparently kids are incapable of flexibility? They shouldn't learn how to adjust to different styles. I tell those kids every time I ref them that when it comes to out of bounds and offside I am guessing. So I implore them more than ever to play to the whistle. I don't know about my peers. I tell them if it is close, I will opt for no call. That is the opposite of what you say the rest of my peers do. So it still comes down to adaptation every game.

And this league is the expection. Most of the time the "bad calls" last only a game. And we all know that common addage about the definition of insanity.

U12 DA has made it more apparent than ever this year that the scores matter very little. With the 1 ref, the subs on the fly, the 2 team rotating roster. It is very obvious that the purpose of this league is development not winning. If the kids are changing the way they play good soccer just because of the unique situation of the league, then they are not being coached properly.

The leagues rules are set up to not punish coaches with experimenting like putting defenders as a winger for a game. Experimenting with different roster iterations. Even goalies. They are not penalized for leaving thre weaker goalie as the starter. Focus on good soccer and don't care about the score or calls. Focus on development.

 

[End of the Line]

You've missed the point. I'm not angry. I'm not blaming refs for being human. I'm not demanding perfection. I'm stating a fact.

I think I captured the point perfectly. The point is that some people take their kids' youth soccer games way too seriously, have no sense of humor or perspective, and could really use some Xanax. Your kids did not unlearn the offsides rule or become so discouraged that they gave up making runs in future games simply because they played in a game with a bad ref. If anything, they are learning a valuable lesson that life is not always fair and, when it isn't, they should adapt. They should also be learning to take advantage when they're the forward who can get away being offsides, or the defender who can get away with securing incorrect offsides calls.

I suspect you are one of those people who takes soccer so seriously that you refer to the soccer rulebook as "the laws of the game".

 

[MWN]

I think I captured the point perfectly. The point is that some people take their kids' youth soccer games way too seriously, have no sense of humor or perspective, and could really use some Xanax. Your kids did not unlearn the offsides rule or become so discouraged that they gave up making runs in future games simply because they played in a game with a bad ref. If anything, they are learning a valuable lesson that life is not always fair and, when it isn't, they should adapt. They should also be learning to take advantage when they're the forward who can get away being offsides, or the defender who can get away with securing incorrect offsides calls.

I suspect you are one of those people who takes soccer so seriously that you refer to the soccer rulebook as "the laws of the game".

So far, I have liked many of the things you have said/posted. The whole ACL thread was a bit entertaining and the science is there confirming a higher incidence of non-contact ACL injuries in one gender vs. the other. That said, little zingers to a group/class of people are fine, but individual zingers will quickly degrade the conversation. Consider making a modification.

The soccer rule book is actually called the Laws of the Game.

 

[watfly]

Some clubs have a policy where their parents don't sit on the side where the AR is running, and I'll put my youth AR there.

One thousand times yes! Why is it so f'ing hard for leagues to understand this concept. I'm all about individual accountability, but the reality is that it isn't working. Leagues, please mandate that each team sits on opposite sidelines with their parents to the left of the center line. Let the AR's have the right touchline to themselves. This isn't a magic bullet but it will help with a lot of issues. This is such simple common sense, and an easy to implement approach to eliminate some unnecessary parent and ref interaction.