Bad News Thread

Grace T. said:
That's the difference in our philosophies. I approach policy knowing people sometimes are devils and will fail. You approach it hoping that people will be angels. When that fails, as it inevitably must, you get frustrated and fall back on authoritarianism. That's also why you are doing religion, instead of policy, preaching for folks to be better.
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Interesting pivot away from the core question of personal responsibility. You’re still looking to make it government centric. What should the government do to make me behave?

They gave you information. That ought to have been enough. It is our responsibility as rational adult human beings to use it.

The paper is simply evidence that the high case rates were, at least in part, the result of private gatherings that we chose to hold.
 
dad4 said:
Interesting pivot away from the core question of personal responsibility. You’re still looking to make it government centric. What should the government do to make me behave?

They gave you information. That ought to have been enough. It is our responsibility as rational adult human beings to use it.

The paper is simply evidence that the high case rates were, at least in part, the result of private gatherings that we chose to hold.
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What are governments doing to fight the global obesity pandemic?

I think Grace’s point is well within the scope of the core question as it appears when we shut down all options people will inherently find a way to be around other people, it’s in our nature.
 
Kicker4Life said:
What are governments doing to fight the global obesity pandemic?

I think Grace’s point is well within the scope of the core question as it appears when we shut down all options people will inherently find a way to be around other people, it’s in our nature.
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American's are typically social, independent, self reliant, risk tolerant and solution oriented creatures. Our MO has always been to address crises head on instead of hiding. Rightly or wrongly, lockdowns are antithetical to this mentality. We should have leveraged creativity and not fear.
 
watfly said:
American's are typically social, independent, self reliant, risk tolerant and solution oriented creatures. Our MO has always been to address crises head on instead of hiding. Rightly or wrongly, lockdowns are antithetical to this mentality. We should have leveraged creativity and not fear.
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Nonsense.
 
dad4 said:
Interesting pivot away from the core question of personal responsibility. You’re still looking to make it government centric. What should the government do to make me behave?

They gave you information. That ought to have been enough. It is our responsibility as rational adult human beings to use it.

The paper is simply evidence that the high case rates were, at least in part, the result of private gatherings that we chose to hold.
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Back in the 1920s it would have been great if the govt had told people about the abuse and dangers of alcohol instead of trying to prohibit it outright. You are the preacher preaching prohibition in this scenario. When your prescription fails, you then run to the govt to enforce your prescription based on the failings of your fellow humans. I don't care about preaching. I care about policy and the impact those decisions. The thing you've primary shown to me is that if the govt shuts down dining and other indoor business, people will gather indoors privately. Also they are more likely to let go of a meal with a coworker than telling jr. to skip their birthday this year (the same probably goes for Thanksgiving and Christmas). That leaves you with a choice: enforce roadblocks and bans on private gatherings, or recognizes NPIS such as shutting down dining (indoor or outdoor) or outdoor activities might be counterproductive.
 
Grace T. said:
Back in the 1920s it would have been great if the govt had told people about the abuse and dangers of alcohol instead of trying to prohibit it outright. You are the preacher preaching prohibition in this scenario. When your prescription fails, you then run to the govt to enforce your prescription based on the failings of your fellow humans. I don't care about preaching. I care about policy and the impact those decisions. The thing you've primary shown to me is that if the govt shuts down dining and other indoor business, people will gather indoors privately. Also they are more likely to let go of a meal with a coworker than telling jr. to skip their birthday this year (the same probably goes for Thanksgiving and Christmas). That leaves you with a choice: enforce roadblocks and bans on private gatherings, or recognizes NPIS such as shutting down dining (indoor or outdoor) or outdoor activities might be counterproductive.
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Yet another pivot. I understand you would rather talk about Prohibition than talk about personal responsibility for disease transmission.

But the study wasn’t about prohibition. It wasn’t even about government policies of any kind.

The study was a simple demonstration that our individual decisions to hold birthday parties were a significant factor in the spread of coronavirus around our communities.

Think of it as a counterexample to Watfly’s claim that Americans inherently step up to a challenge and address crises. This was a case where, when faced with evidence of a crisis, we did exactly the thing which causes it to get worse.
 
dad4 said:
we did exactly the thing which causes it to get worse
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People are social.

Unless you physically lock people up, they are going to socialize. That is the point @Grace T. and others are making. The prohibitions on biz, gatherings simply moved people from those areas to other areas (private gatherings).

Then when you factor in a significant portion of our population still has to go into work, there is no chance to stop the spread of the virus.

If you live on an island and shut off all outside travel, yes, temporarily you can stop the spread. As soon as you open your borders (Aus/NZ) you will seen the virus re-appear.
 
dad4 said:
Yet another pivot. I understand you would rather talk about Prohibition than talk about personal responsibility for disease transmission.

But the study wasn’t about prohibition. It wasn’t even about government policies of any kind.

The study was a simple demonstration that our individual decisions to hold birthday parties were a significant factor in the spread of coronavirus around our communities.

Think of it as a counterexample to Watfly’s claim that Americans inherently step up to a challenge and address crises. This was a case where, when faced with evidence of a crisis, we did exactly the thing which causes it to get worse.
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Wow are a total math guy when you cant even distinguish a pivot and an analogy.

My point is I'm interested in policy. You are preaching...demanding people be "just better". "when faced with evidence of a crisis, we did exactly the thing which causes it to get worse." So what do you want to do about it? Preach and hope people get better? o.k.....but I think your comment about watfly illustrates you don't think they will. So what then????

BTW....this is why I'm a member of a left-leaning church yet lean right when it comes to policy prescriptions and politics....there's no contradiction....it's the job of religion to help us become better people....but when government does it it generally duffs the policy because government involves using force.
 
dad4 said:
Think of it as a counterexample to Watfly’s claim that Americans inherently step up to a challenge and address crises. This was a case where, when faced with evidence of a crisis, we did exactly the thing which causes it to get worse.
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In terms of Covid only outcomes, arguably your correct. In terms of overall outcomes, the government overreach made things much worse. If we had let American ingenuity take the lead we would have been far better off economically, educationally and medically in regards to non-Covid health impacts. The pandemic has created a whole new class of those dependent on the government. If there is any question about that ask any business owner trying to hire right now (and spare me the Biden excuse that the jobs being offered just aren't good enough)
 
Desert Hound said:
By the way the western vaccines seem rather effective vs Mr Delta.

Take a look at the UK. https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/uk/

Now on the other hand the Russian vaccine appears to be a failure, much like the Chi Com sinovac.

Russia has the Delta variant as well. Cases are rising as are deaths.
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Are the Russian deaths rising even among the vaccinated (haven't seen that) or is it that just so many people aren't vaccinated because they don't trust the Russian government's vaccine efforts?
 
watfly said:
In terms of Covid only outcomes, arguably your correct. In terms of overall outcomes, the government overreach made things much worse. If we had let American ingenuity take the lead we would have been far better off economically, educationally and medically in regards to non-Covid health impacts. The pandemic has created a whole new class of those dependent on the government. If there is any question about that ask any business owner trying to hire right now (and spare me the Biden excuse that the jobs being offered just aren't good enough)
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We, the people, held the parties which made this worse. Not we, the government.

Why is it that covid is making all the conservatives here talk about things the government should do? We have very clear evidence that our personal actions made the pandemic worse. This is not a governmental question.
 
dad4 said:
We, the people, held the parties which made this worse. Not we, the government.

Why is it that covid is making all the conservatives here talk about things the government should do? We have very clear evidence that our personal actions made the pandemic worse. This is not a governmental question.
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People dont make policy. Governments do. Like the prohibition preachers, you can't see the distinction.

The better question is o.k. you've preached. People don't listen to you. Now what you gonna do?
 
dad4 said:
We, the people, held the parties which made this worse. Not we, the government.

Why is it that covid is making all the conservatives here talk about things the government should do? We have very clear evidence that our personal actions made the pandemic worse. This is not a governmental question.
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Again we're talking past each other. You only want to talk about Covid, I want to talk about the whole picture. We the people didn't close schools, businesses, and non-emergency health care. Politicians did. We the people were willing to get creative to stay open. Would it have been the perfect solution to fighting Covid, nope, but neither were lockdowns, and the non-Covid impacts are significantly worse and longer term with lockdowns.

Part of making good public policy is making policy that is realistic and the public is likely to follow. You can't scare the American public into following policies that are contradictory to its culture, even if you have the media as an accomplice.
 
Grace T. said:
That's the difference in our philosophies. I approach policy knowing people sometimes are devils and will fail. You approach it hoping that people will be angels. When that fails, as it inevitably must, you get frustrated and fall back on authoritarianism. That's also why you are doing religion, instead of policy, preaching for folks to be better.
Click to expand...
Talk about a twisted narrative! You type that with a straight face?
 
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