Bad News Thread

watfly said:
Good point, in fact here is a video of some Chinese citizens listening to experts.

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You realize that by now we have buried more people than PRC placed into mandatory covid isolation.

There is a cost to sociopathic libertarianism, too. When too many people say "screw everyone else", everyone gets screwed.

(Don't read this as praise for PRC. Covid in US is bad, but still less than 1% of the size of Mao's engineered famine.)
 
kickingandscreaming said:
The problem is that there is little real leadership, and there is an overabundance of partisanship.
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For sure -- it's all over the place. Newsom has really screwed this up. He likely won't be getting my vote next time around. On the flip side, the messaging from the federal side of the shop has been abysmal; almost criminal. Our local officials have been even worse as they're just kowtowing to the state. It's all stupid at this point. Opening indoor venues was just dumb. Not emphasizing what was safe based on data collected by tons of youth sports organizations was a massive missed opportunity. Few people, outside of parents, were ever going to be ok with seeing kids participating in outdoor activities like normal while business were in lockdown. The surges have nothing to do with youth sports.

Anyway, I think covid is just the beginning. I'm sure there are some countries that aren't friendly with the US that are watching this unfold and taking a lot of notes. Imagine a more deadly, laboratory (for reals) made virus. I have a feeling we're going to learn the hard way.
 
dad4 said:
You realize that by now we have buried more people than PRC placed into mandatory covid isolation.

There is a cost to sociopathic libertarianism, too. When too many people say "screw everyone else", everyone gets screwed.

(Don't read this as praise for PRC. Covid in US is bad, but still less than 1% of the size of Mao's engineered famine.)
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You say you aren't praising the PRC but then you put it in the same ballpark as "sociopathic libertarianism". I would remind you (setting aside the ancient history of Mao), the current Chinese regime has "controlled" COVID through the abuses to liberty we've seen in the video posted (including the forced testing of individuals, forced quarantine, and the separation of children and families), the Chinese regime lied to the world about COVID (creating the mess we are in and eliminating any possibility we had of containing it), the Chinese regime excacerbated the crisis we are in by buying up the world's PPE while it kept the outbreak a secret, the Chinese regime deliberately sealed off travel within China while allowing travel to outside of China to continue, the Chinese regime has set up a brutal surveilence state on its people including a points system to control the behavior or its population and a repressive system of prison camps for those who dare challenge the regime, the Chinese government has broken the agreement on Hong Kong and engaged in the deliberate suppression of its democratic systems and liberties, the Chinese regime continues its repressive occupation and resettlement of the Tibet region, the Chinese government has engaged in an almost genocidal campaign against the Uyghurs of north western China, the Chinese government corrupted the WHO to cover it and has engaged in retribution tactics against nations such as Japan and Australia that attempted to call it out on COVID, and the Chinese government engaged in a brutally repressive one child system which was only lifted a few years ago.

To compare American libertarianism to this is not only pattently unfair, it is also out and out offensive. I'll take libertarianism (the philosophy on which our country in part was founded) over Chinese style "democracy" any day of the week. It's nice ewhen the mask (ha ha!) slips and reveals the petty totalitarian tendencies of people who insist we must obey the experts and not publicly question them.
 
dad4 said:
You realize that by now we have buried more people than PRC placed into mandatory covid isolation.

There is a cost to sociopathic libertarianism, too. When too many people say "screw everyone else", everyone gets screwed.

(Don't read this as praise for PRC. Covid in US is bad, but still less than 1% of the size of Mao's engineered famine.)
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Hahaha! Really? You believe the numbers the Chinese government puts out? People "disappear" when they speak out against that government. That's not exactly a recipe for transparency.

time.com

Can We Believe Any of China’s Coronavirus Numbers?

On Wednesday, China changed how it counts COVID-19 cases for the eighth time.
time.com time.com

time.com

Report of Urns in Wuhan Raises Questions About COVID-19 Death Toll

Many are skeptical of China's tallies given Wuhan’s overwhelmed medical system and authorities’ initial attempts to cover up the outbreak
time.com time.com

www.cnn.com

The Wuhan files | CNN

Misleading public data, a three-week lag in diagnosing new virus cases, and a previously undeclared regional spike in influenza cases: 117 pages of internal documents show a chaotic and underfunded provincial health care system struggling to confront a mysterious viral outbreak.
www.cnn.com www.cnn.com
 
Grace T. said:
To compare American libertarianism to this is not only pattently unfair, it is also out and out offensive. I'll take libertarianism (the philosophy on which our country in part was founded) over Chinese style "democracy" any day of the week. It's nice ewhen the mask (ha ha!) slips and reveals the petty totalitarian tendencies of people who insist we must obey the experts and not publicly question them.
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Could you explain that point a little further - the one about "the philosophy on which our country in part was founded"? Are we talking Declaration of Independence and associated documents? The US Constitution and Bill of Rights? Or perhaps the philosophy of the current Libertarian Party movement?

With less than a minute of googling, I found that the first person to describe himself as a "libertarian" was Joseph Dejacque, a 19th -Century French anarchist and commmunist, but I don't think that is the philosophy you had in mind.
 
espola said:
Could you explain that point a little further - the one about "the philosophy on which our country in part was founded"? Are we talking Declaration of Independence and associated documents? The US Constitution and Bill of Rights? Or perhaps the philosophy of the current Libertarian Party movement?

With less than a minute of googling, I found that the first person to describe himself as a "libertarian" was Joseph Dejacque, a 19th -Century French anarchist and commmunist, but I don't think that is the philosophy you had in mind.
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Meh....libertarianism as a philosophy (not the libertarian party) is based on the rights of the individual. You see this tendency in the Declaration of Independence, Constitution, and Bill of Rights. It derives from what is typically known as "Classical liberalism". You make too much of it. There are other tendencies there, whether federalism or Jeffersonian republicanism, hence the "in part".
 
Grace T. said:
Meh....libertarianism as a philosophy (not the libertarian party) is based on the rights of the individual. You see this tendency in the Declaration of Independence, Constitution, and Bill of Rights. It derives from what is typically known as "Classical liberalism". You make too much of it. There are other tendencies there, whether federalism or Jeffersonian republicanism, hence the "in part".
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More on libertarans -- https://www.publicaffairsbooks.com/...-libertarian-walks-into-a-bear/9781541788510/
 
I like this article. Particularly from the perspective of a box store employee: they are being told to go to work but at the same time the government is telling them it's not safe and people should stay home. They have to work (and interact with people all day) but can't socialize.


www.latimes.com

Many aren’t buying public officials' 'stay-at-home' message. Experts say there's a better way

Some experts say a harm-reduction approach to public health — educating people how to mitigate risk in their activities — would be more effective than all-or-nothing pleas to abstain from contact with other people.
www.latimes.com www.latimes.com
 
Grace T. said:
I like this article. Particularly from the perspective of a box store employee: they are being told to go to work but at the same time the government is telling them it's not safe and people should stay home. They have to work (and interact with people all day) but can't socialize.


www.latimes.com

Many aren’t buying public officials' 'stay-at-home' message. Experts say there's a better way

Some experts say a harm-reduction approach to public health — educating people how to mitigate risk in their activities — would be more effective than all-or-nothing pleas to abstain from contact with other people.
www.latimes.com www.latimes.com
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These two quotes from experts resonate with me.

“It’s not because the public is irresponsible; it’s because they are losing trust in public health officials who put out arbitrary restrictions,” said Dr. Monica Gandhi, an infectious-disease specialist at UC San Francisco. “We are failing in our public health messaging.”

...

But banning relatively safe outdoor activities risks alienating people who want to follow the rules but feel exhausted, disregarded and sometimes confused by them, Brown University health economist Emily Oster said.

“Some of the things they’re telling you not to do are incredibly low-risk,” Oster said. “When you are so strict about what people can do, they stop listening.”
 
It’s the natural progression for the suppression of liberties. There was a lot of buy-in at first. No one quite knew how bad it was. Fortunately, it’s not nearly as deadly as first stated, but unfortunately, CA politicians (I won’t say leaders. That title should be earned) started with arbitrary rules, ignored their own rules and tried to use science to justify rules while blatantly ignoring science when it comes to our children - both with school and outdoor sports.
 
kickingandscreaming said:
These two quotes from experts resonate with me.

“It’s not because the public is irresponsible; it’s because they are losing trust in public health officials who put out arbitrary restrictions,” said Dr. Monica Gandhi, an infectious-disease specialist at UC San Francisco. “We are failing in our public health messaging.”

...

But banning relatively safe outdoor activities risks alienating people who want to follow the rules but feel exhausted, disregarded and sometimes confused by them, Brown University health economist Emily Oster said.

“Some of the things they’re telling you not to do are incredibly low-risk,” Oster said. “When you are so strict about what people can do, they stop listening.”
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I'm pretty sure those sentiments are a basic concept in a Leadership 101 class.
 
kickingandscreaming said:
It’s the natural progression for the suppression of liberties. There was a lot of buy-in at first. No one quite knew how bad it was. Fortunately, it’s not nearly as deadly as first stated, but unfortunately, CA politicians (I won’t say leaders. That title should be earned) started with arbitrary rules, ignored their own rules and tried to use science to justify rules while blatantly ignoring science when it comes to our children - both with school and outdoor sports.
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What I have been unable to piece together in my mind is why? Either they are afraid of saying they made a mistake, they truly believe their methods work, or they have a grand scheme to grow government towards a socialist society. I never thought I would see a politician do so many unpopular things to his constituents and not worry about the consequences. Most politician worry about getting reelected. Democrats don’t seem to have that fear.
 
Soccer Bum 06 said:
What I have been unable to piece together in my mind is why? Either they are afraid of saying they made a mistake, they truly believe their methods work, or they have a grand scheme to grow government towards a socialist society. I never thought I would see a politician do so many unpopular things to his constituents and not worry about the consequences. Most politician worry about getting reelected. Democrats don’t seem to have that fear.
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Politically they made a big deal to voter that the reason we are in this mess is because Trump failed to act. About 1/3 of voters believed them and was worked into a panic, and it just happens to (mostly) aligin with the Democratic base. The entire thing behind "masks" and "science" has almost become cultish. So, when they find the numbers are rising, they have to do "something" to keep that base satisfied, even if they themselves don't believe it (by all the Ds we've had that have broken their own rules) or they don't think it will work (e.g. LA County not having any basis to close outdoor dining or schools still being closed despite evidence schools are not major spreaders of the virus). My "inlaws" are like that....very proud and looking down their noses on people not following "the science". A portion of them are just fearful: I wrote that my son's friend from elementary school hasn't been allowed outside of the house/backyard since March...he hasn't seen anyone even for a distanced picnic and because his parents don't allow him a phone...the only time he gets with peers are through remote school or classes (like chess and Kumon).....their justification is the kid has a peanut allergy, but he's an introvert and my son guess he's probably happy being away from annoying classmates.

A comparison of cases per million between Florida (Disney World open) and California (Disneyland closed). California has now passed Florida's peak despite renewed lockdowns, travel bans, mask mandates, and curfews. Seasonality is a thing.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1336053516926812160
 
Soccer Bum 06 said:
What I have been unable to piece together in my mind is why? Either they are afraid of saying they made a mistake, they truly believe their methods work, or they have a grand scheme to grow government towards a socialist society. I never thought I would see a politician do so many unpopular things to his constituents and not worry about the consequences. Most politician worry about getting reelected. Democrats don’t seem to have that fear.
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It's a good question. I believe that many are convinced it is the "right" thing to do. Also, the Social Justice Warrior is a real thing. Zealots, religious or otherwise, justify their actions as being the only moral response. It's a lousy way to try to lead people.
 
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