5 biological men roster wins Australian women's soccer league title & also undefeated this season

[whatithink]

Participation in sports is not a right. Also one person's right is sometimes an infringement of someone else's right. At the end of the day we just have a "philosophical" disagreement. I don't believe in artificial interference in sport and you do. But you're right that sports are always being artificially tinkered with, but rarely does it result in an improvement in sport. Bringing this full circle, what is the last change in the soccer rules that improved the game? I'd argue it was the change to the back pass to the keeper rule which was over 30 years ago. The continual change to the handling rules since has been a complete cluster F which has now resulted in defenders playing with there arms behind their back. The new kickoff rules in football, WTF?

The restrictions on Semenya are definitely an infringement of her rights, basically she has to dope to compete which is clearly absurd. Some people have an advantage. Sure, they have to back that up with hard work and such, but they still have a "genetic" advantage which makes the whole competition & fairness thing a bit silly. Look at Ian Thorpe the Australian swimmer with size 17 feet, i.e. "flippers", or Phelps with an "unnatural" wing span and huge hands which gave him a huge natural advantage in the pool. How about the best athletes / richest countries / biggest clubs having the best facilities and support structures which allow them to be the best prepared - nothing "fair" there? The shoe technology that is now available to some athletes which allows them to run faster is hardly "fair", but legit per the rules. Messi was given growth hormones from 11, was that fair or doping?

If someone has a natural advantage, then that's just their good fortune. They shouldn't be penalized for it. Messi would be the odd one out from my examples

 

[crush]

She has been suspended for life by WBO and gets no prize money. If she truly is a biological female with a real vagina, I will be the first to eat crow and say sorry and say, "I was wrong." This would be illegal as well and flat out wrong. Based on what my eyes see and what I have read, she was born he biologically, but the old man wanted a girl. He is beating the shit out of the girls and that's not fair, especially in boxing for Gods sakes.

 

[watfly]

The restrictions on Semenya are definitely an infringement of her rights, basically she has to dope to compete which is clearly absurd. Some people have an advantage. Sure, they have to back that up with hard work and such, but they still have a "genetic" advantage which makes the whole competition & fairness thing a bit silly. Look at Ian Thorpe the Australian swimmer with size 17 feet, i.e. "flippers", or Phelps with an "unnatural" wing span and huge hands which gave him a huge natural advantage in the pool. How about the best athletes / richest countries / biggest clubs having the best facilities and support structures which allow them to be the best prepared - nothing "fair" there? The shoe technology that is now available to some athletes which allows them to run faster is hardly "fair", but legit per the rules. Messi was given growth hormones from 11, was that fair or doping?

If someone has a natural advantage, then that's just their good fortune. They shouldn't be penalized for it. Messi would be the odd one out from my examples

Thank you for articulating that much better than I did.

 

[crush]

Tim's bro is going to speak about his brother, Coach Tim Walz. Dirty dark secrets will be coming out today. Coach is for MTF, just like head coach at South Carolina. Kamala is 100% for any man who claims to be a lady to be immediately eligible to participate in women's sports and 100% allowed to undress and shower with the girls who have a vagina. Let's see what the brother has to say. Trump is 100% a "no" and will make it criminal if a Doc is caught cutting off a minor's body parts, regardless of if it's a penis, an arm, a finger, a foot, big toe, one of the child eyeballs or an ear. Any Doc caught cutting away, will go to prison. As long as we have crazy Docs looking to make a buck doing experiments on kids, we will have evil on the planet. My God, what kind of person would do such a thing.

 

[Grace T.]

The restrictions on Semenya are definitely an infringement of her rights, basically she has to dope to compete which is clearly absurd. Some people have an advantage. Sure, they have to back that up with hard work and such, but they still have a "genetic" advantage which makes the whole competition & fairness thing a bit silly. Look at Ian Thorpe the Australian swimmer with size 17 feet, i.e. "flippers", or Phelps with an "unnatural" wing span and huge hands which gave him a huge natural advantage in the pool. How about the best athletes / richest countries / biggest clubs having the best facilities and support structures which allow them to be the best prepared - nothing "fair" there? The shoe technology that is now available to some athletes which allows them to run faster is hardly "fair", but legit per the rules. Messi was given growth hormones from 11, was that fair or doping?

If someone has a natural advantage, then that's just their good fortune. They shouldn't be penalized for it. Messi would be the odd one out from my examples

It’s an interesting position. If the whole “competition & fairness thing” is a “bit silly” because so much of it is genetics, then what’s the point? Why grant athletic preferences and scholarships to schools? Why subsidize professional and collegiate women’s athletics? Why should kids waste time on competitive sports? Professional athletics at least has a market and entertainment value (to which you can apply a heavy redistribution like Rawls suggests), but if it’s all just a genetic fluke why bother with it all??? It’s like giving an award for biggest nose or floppiest ears…renders athletes participant in a best in show dog contest. And if it doesn’t matter why not just throw the women in with the men…coed for everyone, quota if you need to make sure there are a sufficient number of women. Why all this claim that there is merit to athletics if it’s all an accident of birth? And while you say Messi is the odd man out there, he’s a pretty big odd man out and while not ubiquitous, hgh is not uncommon in teen athletes (esp girls who have ended their growth but don’t want to go on testosterone for long term health reasons)…how does that (or the shoes, or high end golf clubs) fit in your rationalization? What about (I think it was crush who mentioned) giving your kid a Red Bull or adhd stimulants? What about low testosterone men on supplements to bring them up to average?

 

[dad4]

Semenya's advantage is that she is part male. She has a Y chromosome.

That is very different from other dominant athletes, such as Biles or Phelps.

 

[crush]

It’s an interesting position. If the whole “competition & fairness thing” is a “bit silly” because so much of it is genetics, then what’s the point? Why grant athletic preferences and scholarships to schools? Why subsidize professional and collegiate women’s athletics? Why should kids waste time on competitive sports? Professional athletics at least has a market and entertainment value (to which you can apply a heavy redistribution like Rawls suggests), but if it’s all just a genetic fluke why bother with it all??? It’s like giving an award for biggest nose or floppiest ears…renders athletes participant in a best in show dog contest. And if it doesn’t matter why not just throw the women in with the men…coed for everyone, quota if you need to make sure there are a sufficient number of women. Why all this claim that there is merit to athletics if it’s all an accident of birth? And while you say Messi is the odd man out there, he’s a pretty big odd man out and while not ubiquitous, hgh is not uncommon in teen athletes (esp girls who have ended their growth but don’t want to go on testosterone for long term health reasons)…how does that (or the shoes, or high end golf clubs) fit in your rationalization? What about (I think it was crush who mentioned) giving your kid a Red Bull or adhd stimulants? What about low testosterone men on supplements to bring them up to average?

Let's start with hormones and the dreaded period for real females. The fact a real woman has to deal with this every fucking month and someday have a baby, makes me support their own competitive league. If you cut off your penis and start having a period every month, you qualify for a discussion and that's it.

 

[Slobodan]

Nope. It’s a common technique in Socratic methodology such as we use to teach law school. Drawing a logical extension of the principles drawn up and applying them to new situations.

Translator help me out

Translator: “I don’t like it when my own principles are used against me.”

Me: “oh”

The restrictions on Semenya are definitely an infringement of her rights, basically she has to dope to compete which is clearly absurd. Some people have an advantage. Sure, they have to back that up with hard work and such, but they still have a "genetic" advantage which makes the whole competition & fairness thing a bit silly. Look at Ian Thorpe the Australian swimmer with size 17 feet, i.e. "flippers", or Phelps with an "unnatural" wing span and huge hands which gave him a huge natural advantage in the pool. How about the best athletes / richest countries / biggest clubs having the best facilities and support structures which allow them to be the best prepared - nothing "fair" there? The shoe technology that is now available to some athletes which allows them to run faster is hardly "fair", but legit per the rules. Messi was given growth hormones from 11, was that fair or doping?

If someone has a natural advantage, then that's just their good fortune. They shouldn't be penalized for it. Messi would be the odd one out from my examples

That's the worst argument I've ever heard. First of all, Messi is still 5' 3" and 110 lbs. If anything, his waist being 12" from the ground is an advantage. Ian Thorpe and Michael Phelps are both males with all the same access to training, diet and hormones. Phelps hooking up with trannies might sway the odds a little, but I can't say that's an advantage. Oh wait... probably the same testosterone intake for both, there, too.

And since we know it's not always the 'richest countries' winning everything, you can toss that one out, too. Shoe technology? Don't all athletes at the top levels have access to the "fastest" shoes?

Afterall... You can't spell Semenya without "semen".

 

[crush]

Afterall... You can't spell Semenya without "semen".

Oh gosh, I about spit out my peanut butter from my sandwich. See men, ya!!!

 

[whatithink]

It’s an interesting position. If the whole “competition & fairness thing” is a “bit silly” because so much of it is genetics, then what’s the point? Why grant athletic preferences and scholarships to schools? Why subsidize professional and collegiate women’s athletics? Why should kids waste time on competitive sports? Professional athletics at least has a market and entertainment value (to which you can apply a heavy redistribution like Rawls suggests), but if it’s all just a genetic fluke why bother with it all??? It’s like giving an award for biggest nose or floppiest ears…renders athletes participant in a best in show dog contest. And if it doesn’t matter why not just throw the women in with the men…coed for everyone, quota if you need to make sure there are a sufficient number of women. Why all this claim that there is merit to athletics if it’s all an accident of birth? And while you say Messi is the odd man out there, he’s a pretty big odd man out and while not ubiquitous, hgh is not uncommon in teen athletes (esp girls who have ended their growth but don’t want to go on testosterone for long term health reasons)…how does that (or the shoes, or high end golf clubs) fit in your rationalization? What about (I think it was crush who mentioned) giving your kid a Red Bull or adhd stimulants? What about low testosterone men on supplements to bring them up to average?

I don't particularly agree with collegiate sports or scholarships for athletes etc. If pro sports want to use colleges as their academies, they should pay for them. If the American Olympic committee want to use colleges as their development environment, they should also pay for them etc. I think if a collegiate sport can pay for itself, then I'm OK with that - it should and that should be that. If it can't, then make it (college) club and/or don't do it. I'm not a fan of Title IX in that (college sports) respect.

I'm all in with sports in general though, my kids play - I even still play. There are loads of benefits, social and health wise - its silly not to play if you can.

The Messi example was an obvious lure. The other example are of genetic advantages. Phelps is probably the absolute example of a "perfect" swimming design - 6'4", short legs, so long upper body, wing span of a 6'7" and huge hands ... and in addition his body naturally absorbs lactic acid at twice the norm meaning his recovery times are halved. None of that ignores the fact that he trained 365 days a year, for years, to achieve what he did.

 

[watfly]

Semenya's advantage is that she is part male. She has a Y chromosome.

That is very different from other dominant athletes, such as Biles or Phelps.

So I wasnt aware that Semenya had a y chromosome. I thought she just had high T. So my position is that she is biologically male and should compete against men.

It turns out that she wasnt a genetically gifted woman as whatithink said and I agreed with, but a biological male.

 

[Grace T.]

I don't particularly agree with collegiate sports or scholarships for athletes etc. If pro sports want to use colleges as their academies, they should pay for them. If the American Olympic committee want to use colleges as their development environment, they should also pay for them etc. I think if a collegiate sport can pay for itself, then I'm OK with that - it should and that should be that. If it can't, then make it (college) club and/or don't do it. I'm not a fan of Title IX in that (college sports) respect.

I'm all in with sports in general though, my kids play - I even still play. There are loads of benefits, social and health wise - its silly not to play if you can.

The Messi example was an obvious lure. The other example are of genetic advantages. Phelps is probably the absolute example of a "perfect" swimming design - 6'4", short legs, so long upper body, wing span of a 6'7" and huge hands ... and in addition his body naturally absorbs lactic acid at twice the norm meaning his recovery times are halved. None of that ignores the fact that he trained 365 days a year, for years, to achieve what he did.

This position kinda makes sense. If athletics is just about health and recreation, on the one hand, or entertainment and making the buck on the other, it lowers the stakes drastically. It would upend title ix, as well as athletic preferences for colleges, but your position is consistent that way. If you believe the telos of sport is not about merit but at worst just a recreational activity and best a best in show dog contest (which also involves some prep and investment on the part of the owner) this is logically consistent. Good point.

Out of curiosity, what’s your take on awarding merits such as college admissions based on iq tests (like the sat) or grades and course work (Rawls argues even studiousness is a genetic gift)? Not a gotcha. Just intrigued by the argument as i agree if athletics is not about merits it doesn’t matter.

 

[Veritas]

Semenya's advantage is that she is part male. She has a Y chromosome.

That is very different from other dominant athletes, such as Biles or Phelps.

I didn’t believe this so I asked Gemeni… and Gemini says: That’s why her “T”levels
are within the male range. Cause she’s a man

 

[Grace T.]

That's the worst argument I've ever heard. First of all, Messi is still 5' 3" and 110 lbs. If anything, his waist being 12" from the ground is an advantage. Ian Thorpe and Michael Phelps are both males with all the same access to training, diet and hormones. Phelps hooking up with trannies might sway the odds a little, but I can't say that's an advantage. Oh wait... probably the same testosterone intake for both, there, too.

And since we know it's not always the 'richest countries' winning everything, you can toss that one out, too. Shoe technology? Don't all athletes at the top levels have access to the "fastest" shoes?

Afterall... You can't spell Semenya without "semen".

Actually there does seem to be a correlation between investment in sport and outcome. Whether the U.S. and China at the top of the Olympic table, of the sums the top 5 pay for players in the epl. While the correlation is harder one to one on the individual level, on the aggregate macro level it’s outlined in the soccer economics book how investment and performance are correlated.

 

[Grace T.]

I didn’t believe this so I asked Gemeni… and Gemini says: That’s why her T levels
are within the male range. Cause she’s a man
View attachment 22895

This has actually be litigated in the sports arbitration courts and the Swiss courts so it has been legally documented. I do point out if she were forced to compete with xy men on full testosterone and that had gone through male puberty, she would not be competing anywhere near her current levels and would likely need to dope up on t to get anywhere near where the average cis male is producing, unless she were to compete against either aged males or men with a testosterone deficiency.

 

[Veritas]

Is this "right" or "fair" to require someone to take a serious biology changing medication to compete? Did you know that in international track and field that the IAAF testosterone test only applies to women athletes with a DSD condition? Non-DSD women with excessive levels of T are not required to reduce their T with T suppressants. If high T is a performance enhancer than its seems arbitrary to apply the rule to only certain woman. This is not to mention that the level of T that disqualifies someone from competition is subjective. Who gets to decide how masculine is too masculine?

Also the IAAF rules on high T only applies to certain events. For instance it applies to the 400m but not the 200m. For setting rules of competition this just seem far too arbitrary and why I favor a simple X and Y test.

A simple X or Y test is the simplest way to solve this and I would be all for this but I feel bad for the woke libs so I was at least trying to give them something to chew on. But the X or Y test is the simplest way to solve it. It goes with nature you either a man or a woman. It’s yes or no.

 

[Veritas]

Back in the day a case like Semenya would have been considered a hermaphrodite or a true transsexual. Born in Africa with a vagina she was raised as a woman but biologically she is male. A true tranny. Which is basically a man that is born with female genitals or both. Today they are called intersex which is still a man with female or both male and female genetalia. They should not be competing with cisgender females. The XX rule would easily solve this problem. That’s why I feel the safest bet to make it fair for progressives is to have the other category. It’s either that or be excluded from participation but we cannot put these individuals in the cis women category.

Also today’s trans woman is basically what we used to call a transvestite or cross dresser. At least most of them are just that. Trans woman is just a glorified term of that. Some keep their pistol and others go all the way. But the one thing they all have in common is that they dress up as women and now believe they are women that’s where the mental illness part comes into play. The ones that now believe they are women.

 

[crush]

Back in the day a case like Semenya would have been considered a hermaphrodite or a true transsexual. Which is basically a man that is born with female genitals or both. Today they are called intersex which is still a man with female or both male and female genetalia. They should not be competing with cisgender females. The XX rule would easily solve this problem. That’s why I feel the safest bet to make it fair for progressives is to have the other category. It’s either that or be excluded from participation but we cannot put these individuals in the cis women category.

Also today’s trans woman is basically what we used to call a transvestite or cross dresser. Trans woman is just a glorified term of that. Some keep their pistol and others go all the way. But the one thing they all have in common is that they dress up as women and now believe they are women that’s where the mental illness part comes into play. The ones that now believe they are women. View attachment 22896

I shared this before Veritas and it's worth repeating. My wife's friends' husband is a cross dresser and nothing more than that. He's actually not a bad looking woman. He says everyone thinks he's a woman when he's out looking for attention and guys hit on him all the time, they think he's a a lady and that's the joy he receives to deceive. He doesn't like men at all, just loves the attention. He's a better-looking guy, moo. His legs are 100% feminine and that's why it's impossible to think he's a man. The guys playing sports as women is different altogether.

 

[Veritas]

I shared this before Veritas and it's worth repeating. My wife's friends' husband is a cross dresser and nothing more than that. He's actually not a bad looking woman. He says everyone thinks he's a woman when he's out looking for attention and guys hit on him all the time, they think he's a a lady and that's the joy he receives to deceive. He doesn't like men at all, just loves the attention. He's a better-looking guy, moo. His legs are 100% feminine and that's why it's impossible to think he's a man. The guys playing sports as women is different altogether.

Very good point Crush. Most trans woman are just that cross dressers and the ones with a mental illness that cannot accept reality believe they are really women inside their delusional minds. These are the dangerous ones like Lia Thomas who truly believe that they now have all the rights as a woman because their mental sickness says so and this administration is trying to normalize and empower their mental illness with their slick propaganda. This is how I feel nowadays. Pictures speaks 1000 words

 

[Grace T.]

Very good point Crush. Most trans woman are just that cross dressers and the ones with a mental illness that cannot accept reality believe they are really women inside their delusional minds. These are the dangerous ones like Lia Thomas who truly believe that they now have all the rights as a woman because their mental sickness says so and this administration is trying to normalize and empower their mental illness with their slick propaganda. This is how I feel nowadays. Pictures speaks 1000 words View attachment 22897

This is just ignorance and bigotry. first off a cross dresser is not necessarily a trans individual. Some may be performers, some may be gay, some may be trans in waiting. Second there’s a lot of data that suggests that trans individuals have different brain structures than cis individuals and those differences resemble those of the opposite biological sex. Third there’s data that suggests there’s an autism link

Now you might be willing to suggest that someone with autism has a mental illness (and as someone on the spectrum I’d take extreme umbrage to that). You might also be willing to suggest that a kid with adhd has a mental illness. Perhaps given your picture you might even be willing to suggest someone who is gay has a mental illness. While psychology used to qualify these conditions as mental illnesses it has moved away from that thinking towards understanding while these might be neurological or structural differences with the brain, or even mental conditions, they are certainly not illness. Moreover at least when it comes to trans individuals there is no known treatment for the condition that ease it. Most of them aren’t delusion…they don’t think their chromosomes magically warp to the opposite gender…but there is something physiologically different to them.

Your post reeks of anti gay bigotry. Your post reeks of disability bigotry. While it is certainly possible for reasonable people to disagree on the exact accommodations offered trans people, this is not cool. Dare you to show your children this post. It’s offensive.

And btw if you find yourself nodding along to his post, it says something about whether you are one of the good guys.