5 biological men roster wins Australian women's soccer league title & also undefeated this season

[Grace T.]

Participation in sports is not a right. Also one person's right is sometimes an infringement of someone else's right. At the end of the day we just have a "philosophical" disagreement. I don't believe in artificial interference in sport and you do. But you're right that sports are always being artificially tinkered with, but rarely does it result in an improvement in sport. Bringing this full circle, what is the last change in the soccer rules that improved the game? I'd argue it was the change to the back pass to the keeper rule which was over 30 years ago. The continual change to the handling rules since has been a complete cluster F which has now resulted in defenders playing with there arms behind their back. The new kickoff rules in football, WTF?

Participation in sports is absolutely a right. Otherwise the entire rationale for women’s athletics collapses. It’s not as exciting as the men, even if strides have been made interest is still not the same, it’s not as lucrative as the men’s….it is “lesser”. Otherwise throw them all with the men, much less any entitlement to equivalent scholarships. These arguments were all made at the time title ix was put in place to great opposition. That’s been legally asked and answered for a generation now.

The question of conflicting rights is entirely a different one, and a fair question. Conflicting rights though are ubiquitous in society. Your right to build a building on your land blocks my right to light and air. Philosophy is the question of how we resolve these conflicts. But it starts with an acknowledgement that each party does have their rights.

 

[Grace T.]

Participation in sports is absolutely a right. Otherwise the entire rationale for women’s athletics collapses. It’s not as exciting as the men, even if strides have been made interest is still not the same, it’s not as lucrative as the men’s….it is “lesser”. Otherwise throw them all with the men, much less any entitlement to equivalent scholarships. These arguments were all made at the time title ix was put in place to great opposition. That’s been legally asked and answered for a generation now.

The question of conflicting rights is entirely a different one, and a fair question. Conflicting rights though are ubiquitous in society. Your right to build a building on your land blocks my right to light and air. Philosophy is the question of how we resolve these conflicts. But it starts with an acknowledgement that each party does have their rights.

Btw the Spanish word for law is “derechos” meaning rights. Quite literally the study of conflicting rights, privileges and duties

 

[watfly]

Participation in sports is absolutely a right. Otherwise the entire rationale for women’s athletics collapses. It’s not as exciting as the men, even if strides have been made interest is still not the same, it’s not as lucrative as the men’s….it is “lesser”. Otherwise throw them all with the men, much less any entitlement to equivalent scholarships. These arguments were all made at the time title ix was put in place to great opposition. That’s been legally asked and answered for a generation now.

The question of conflicting rights is entirely a different one, and a fair question. Conflicting rights though are ubiquitous in society. Your right to build a building on your land blocks my right to light and air. Philosophy is the question of how we resolve these conflicts. But it starts with an acknowledgement that each party does have their rights.

It's not a participation right in competitive athletics because its ability dependent, but nevertheless everyone regardless of x and y has the opportunity to play in their respective x and y category given the appropriate ability. There is zero need for a 3rd category.

In terms, of glasses, fancy shoes, etc. reasonable people can easily draw a line between that and biological sex. Most people can tell the difference between an apple and an orange and don't "what if" the shit out of simple scenarios. Allowing glasses is a reasonable allowable accommodation whereas requiring hormone suppressants is not a reasonable requirement. You appear to be ignoring the concept of relativity.

 

[crush]

I agree this is the simplest solution to ensure equity and inclusion of all people.
Two categories of competition: 1-XX Division: Only people with XX chromosomes (regardless of current or past Gonad scenario), 2-Open Division: All/Any other combination of Chromosomes (regardless of current or past Gonad scenario).

I love this idea.

 

[Grace T.]

It's not a participation right in competitive athletics because its ability dependent, but nevertheless everyone regardless of x and y has the opportunity to play in their respective x and y category given the appropriate ability. There is zero need for a 3rd category.

In terms, of glasses, fancy shoes, etc. reasonable people can easily draw a line between that and biological sex. Most people can tell the difference between an apple and an orange and don't "what if" the shit out of simple scenarios. Allowing glasses is a reasonable allowable accommodation whereas requiring hormone suppressants is not a reasonable requirement. You appear to be ignoring the concept of relativity.

You were the one that made the argument for clear rules but now are resorting to line drawing. I’m just pointing out the dissonance.

As to the categories I recall you said the reason we don’t throw women in with the men is because there wouldn’t be a level playing field. Throwing the trans into the m category does not produce that level playing field for them and is therefore violative of their rights.

 

[watfly]

You were the one that made the argument for clear rules but now are resorting to line drawing. I’m just pointing out the dissonance.

As to the categories I recall you said the reason we don’t throw women in with the men is because there wouldn’t be a level playing field. Throwing the trans into the m category does not produce that level playing field for them and is therefore violative of their rights.

Clear rules and drawing a line is one in the same for reasonably minded people. Plus I'm drawing a straight line with a Sharpie and not a wobbly line in the sand with my finger.

FTM trans make a choice to exclude themselves from competition by biologically transitioning (but I'm not saying that being trans is a choice). We all make choices in life which may benefit us in some ways and restrict us in others. You said yourself that post-puberty MTF transitions shouldn't be allowed to compete as women, so I guess that makes us both violative of their rights. Having a third competition category doesn't solve that dilemma.

 

[Grace T.]

Clear rules and drawing a line is one in the same for reasonably minded people. Plus I'm drawing a straight line with a Sharpie and not a wobbly line in the sand with my finger.

FTM trans make a choice to exclude themselves from competition by biologically transitioning (but I'm not saying that being trans is a choice). We all make choices in life which may benefit us in some ways and restrict us in others. You said yourself that post-puberty MTF transitions shouldn't be allowed to compete as women, so I guess that makes us both violative of their rights. Having a third competition category doesn't solve that dilemma.

Yes it does. It provides a place for a level playing field. It’s an accommodation like glasses or adhd meds. You made your choice so too bad so sad is not a reasonable outcome given they are entitled to that level playing field.

 

[Grace T.]

Yes it does. It provides a place for a level playing field. It’s an accommodation like glasses or adhd meds. You made your choice so too bad so sad is not a reasonable outcome given they are entitled to that level playing field.

Btw implicit in your position is that you don’t think transitioning is a valid option to resolve the condition. Because of it is there’s no dif to glasses or stimulants.

 

[watfly]

Yes it does. It provides a place for a level playing field. It’s an accommodation like glasses or adhd meds. You made your choice so too bad so sad is not a reasonable outcome given they are entitled to that level playing field.

Who else would then qualify the 3rd category? If I'm understanding you correctly it would be MTF post-puberty transitioners and xx DSD's with high T that refuse suppressants. How does that create a level playing field?

While I can appreciate your idealistic attempt to level the playing field, a level playing field is a myth. So yeah guilty as charged, I do fall into the "too bad, so sad" category and I thinks it been clear from my posts.

 

[watfly]

Btw implicit in your position is that you don’t think transitioning is a valid option to resolve the condition. Because of it is there’s no dif to glasses or stimulants.

That's not remotely implicit in my position. Again please stop jumping to conclusions not in evidence. I think in some cases it is a valid option, say in the case of my son's friend. In other cases its not a valid option, as is evidence by the many individuals that have detransitioned. Gender transition surgery (actually called feminization surgery in most medical circles) is experimental and speculative in terms of its "curative" value. Vision correction is not remotely so. Again I think your relativity gauge is not calibrated.

 

[Grace T.]

Who else would then qualify the 3rd category? If I'm understanding you correctly it would be MTF post-puberty transitioners and xx DSD's with high T that refuse suppressants. How does that create a level playing field?

While I can appreciate your idealistic attempt to level the playing field, a level playing field is a myth. So yeah guilty as charged, I do fall into the "too bad, so sad" category and I thinks it been clear from my posts.

Well at least you are owning it........

(as to the 3rd category I'd throw in all others including ftm, intersexed, nonbinary low t, low t men, and any genetic xx that want to compete).

 

[Grace T.]

That's not remotely implicit in my position. Again please stop jumping to conclusions not in evidence. I think in some cases it is a valid option, say in the case of my son's friend. In other cases its not a valid option, as is evidence by the many individuals that have detransitioned. Gender transition surgery (actually called feminization surgery in most medical circles) is experimental and speculative in terms of its "curative" value. Vision correction is not remotely so. Again I think your relativity gauge is not calibrated.

Not that way the law gen works. If it’s a valid treatment you are entitled to an accommodation.

 

[Culer]

Not that way the law gen works. If it’s a valid treatment you are entitled to an accommodation.

12 pages already! LOL... stop making it complicated, penis=man, vagina=female... unsure= mental illness. First world problems: let's make normal complicated.

 

[Grace T.]

12 pages already! LOL... stop making it complicated, penis=man, vagina=female... unsure= mental illness. First world problems: let's make normal complicated.

Well that’s why I think a better rubric to look at this is as a disability but the left activists don’t like that either.

 

[watfly]

Well at least you are owning it........

(as to the 3rd category I'd throw in all others including ftm, intersexed, nonbinary low t, low t men, and any genetic xx that want to compete).

So this would effectively be a T based league. How logistically do you level the playing field since you previously acknowledged the difference T levels of the individuals within these groups? Set a T standard and the those above it would have to take a T suppressant and those above it could take enhancers if they so choose?

In my mind this smacks of everyone gets to ride the bus, but some of you are going to have to ride the short bus.

 

[Grace T.]

So this would effectively be a T based league. How logistically do you level the playing field since you previously acknowledged the difference T levels of the individuals within these groups? Set a T standard and the those above it would have to take a T suppressant and those above it could take enhancers if they so choose?

In my mind this smacks of everyone gets to ride the bus, but some of you are going to have to ride the short bus.

Well that’s typically how disability law works. Accommodations aren’t perfect. For example we require installation of handicapped accessible bathrooms in all new and remodeled public bathrooms but not (most) older public ones or private homes.

Details tbd and subject to fluctuation re acceptable levels (which btw ftms are already policed in higher competition because testosterone is a ped…we actually are doing this for them already). Up until 5 years ago scientists thought you could compensate for male puberty through suppressants but in at least track and swimming we now know that’s wrong. Adjustments will need to be made along the way. Some like soccer might not reach critical mass. But a short bus is better than no bus and it will dramatically improve the situation of ftm who right now are stuck.

 

[watfly]

Well that’s typically how disability law works. Accommodations aren’t perfect. For example we require installation of handicapped accessible bathrooms in all new and remodeled public bathrooms but not (most) older public ones or private homes.

Details tbd and subject to fluctuation re acceptable levels (which btw ftms are already policed in higher competition because testosterone is a ped…we actually are doing this for them already). Up until 5 years ago scientists thought you could compensate for male puberty through suppressants but in at least track and swimming we now know that’s wrong. Adjustments will need to be made along the way. Some like soccer might not reach critical mass. But a short bus is better than no bus and it will dramatically improve the situation of ftm who right now are stuck.

Welcome to the Pee in the Cup League. You must work for a medical testing lab?

 

[watfly]

Well that’s typically how disability law works. Accommodations aren’t perfect. For example we require installation of handicapped accessible bathrooms in all new and remodeled public bathrooms but not (most) older public ones or private homes.

Details tbd and subject to fluctuation re acceptable levels (which btw ftms are already policed in higher competition because testosterone is a ped…we actually are doing this for them already). Up until 5 years ago scientists thought you could compensate for male puberty through suppressants but in at least track and swimming we now know that’s wrong. Adjustments will need to be made along the way. Some like soccer might not reach critical mass. But a short bus is better than no bus and it will dramatically improve the situation of ftm who right now are stuck.

I have to admit the play by play commentary would be priceless:

"Hey Jim, I'm expecting Pat Jenner to have a big night tonight they just dropped a 5.0 nanomoles result yesterday, but I'm a little worried for Sam Bono as they checked in at only 3.0 nanomoles. We will have to keep an eye out for their performances tonight."

"Wait a second Bob, is that Cameron Cox going into the TAR review tent? Well Jim, you have expect that after they scored their fifth goal."

 

[crush]

Great discussion you guys. If my words hurt your feelings, I sorry. If my openness makes you uncomfortable and you have to call me names to be a jerk, that's ok as well. I had dear friends (super conservative church going type) whose son came out as a MTF and also liked to do Drag Queen shows and now is a professional drag queen and makes good money as a side hustle. The church they attended with their children was over 1000 people and they were prominent leaders. Their son also played music and sang in the choir. Amazing family and amazing father I have known since 1988. He called me all the time in dire help, and this was back 2014. We both served in youth ministry as well in late 90s and early 2000s. I helped a few gay men in the church who were married to women but also struggling with desires to be with men and a few wanted to be with a man over a woman 95% of the time. This is a true-life stuff and real battle that some men go through. I only knew of one MTF and a few cross dressers and those who didn't like what God gave them and when you add the church shame and church judgement, it can be very insane for everyone involved, and this family handled it like a boss. I can share more if it helps, or I can STFU. More and more young boys are now gay and free. The big debate here should we allow boys and men to say the magic words, "I am a woman now" and automatically get a spot on the girls' team and force the girls to watch the MTF undress and take showers with them.

 

[Grace T.]

Welcome to the Pee in the Cup League. You must work for a medical testing lab?

FTM are already monitored this way as are alot of the higher levels for peds. Since peds are basically testosterone, it’s how women with rare hormone balances are caught and how they are regulated. It already exists (and has to because of peds if you believe they have no part in a level playing field). That rubicon has already been crossed