Not yet. Swimming, yes, Lia took first place away from a female.
Trans eligibility rules for girls sports.
- Thread starter dad4
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1. Bit of a lazy argument. "These are the rules, go away" and "it's wrong" because I feel that it's wrong.
2. you are conflating the participation rules with the locker room and bathroom rules again. You said earlier you didn't want to do that.
3. You just inadvertently made a surgery test to move them from FTM or MTF. I agree it's probably the best test for locker rooms/bathrooms, though we probably need to expand some unisex/family bathrooms out and privacy area (for reasons that transcend...haha....the trans people) and install a few months grace period (double haha) prior to surgery.
4. I note this test though is very different from the NCAA participatory test (and is in some ways more stringent and in some ways less stringent)...it would be an interesting argument to have on the college level but I don't have enough of the facts to intelligently discuss. I don't think it would be warranted on the kiddie ball level for the simple reason that we don't care enough to police other things in the kiddie ball arena, therefore fairness isn't really a concern that overrides participation.
Lazy? Oh please. This is not normal behavior and you know it. Lia competing against the boys one year and then the next year wins against the females is utter bullshit. Go ahead and stand for Lia. I will stand against Lia and those like him stealing from women. Come on, this is not lazy minded, it's pro active.
It does logically force me to be opposed to assigning roster slots on the basis of doping, bribes, and/or sexual favors.I gotta say this is a hella good retort on your part. It’s a body slam…fun to see. But you sorta have in the process hoisted yourself by your own petard on the ecnl issue…if you don’t care about these other issues you shouldn’t care about the trans kid. You just implied it yourself.
it’s interesting. I really do think we are heading to a place where the issue is going to be decided red state v blue state. Guess some of you guys should take my prior advice and think about heading out
I do think the arguments raised in the case are somewhat dangerous and have a possibility of boomeranging. They seem to rely on the overt argument that women and women’s sport is lesser and therefore needs to be protected. It therefore undermines the argument for example for equal pay for the Uswnt, womens pro sports and even the foundations for title ix (as opposed to a participatory argument which would cut in the trans kids favor). They make the mistaken assumption that protection somehow means equal (it doesn’t…it in fact implies the opposite). While we all (hopefully) know men and women in fact are different, it undermines one of the major tenets of pre post modernist feminism of the last 60 years
That is not a problem. Like most people, I am already opposed to using doping, bribes, or sexual favors to get a roster slot.
Fun to watch EOTL squirm to try to revive his position, though.
The swimmer? I've already said I think on a college level things are different, particularly in an individual sport. I would be open to the argument that the rules should be tightened so Lia's don't happen. I'm not a partisan here....my position again is quite centrist and in line with the NCAA position prior to the partisans getting involved. I think both absolutist positions (anyone should play under any gender they want v. no trans ever whether FTM or MTF in women's sports) are not very well reasoned.
"normal" is a bit of a sticky wicket. Prior to the partisans getting involved transgenderism was considered a mental disorder (I get folks objected to the negative connotations but it is clear there is something that varies from the baseline norm there). Would you for example consider someone who is gay "normal"? What about someone with ADHD? What about a girl that isn't very feminine, cuts her hair short, and is obsessed with soccer instead of boys and cheerleading?
I said many times I know men who act and are women on the inside. Bruce Jenner comes to mind and even Catlyn thinks its wrong, crazy or not fair or not normal to one day play and beat boys and then the next day beat up on the girls. I have great frens aho are gay and they agree with me regarding the dude who wants to beat up on the girls in sport.
GLangevinito
SILVER
LOL can colleges give out an unlimited number of scholarships suddenly?
The good news is we are making good progress on this issue. A few years ago the argument was about the fact that going through puberty as a male gave that person athletic advantages. Now, no one advances the ridiculous argument that men and women are equal athletically.
Now, the best argument for inclusion of trans women into women's sports is "the issue is too rare to be concerned about."
When that argument goes away, we can get down to the issue of what is fair and what is not, to both trans women and bio women.
Counterpoint: we actually were in a better place on this issue before the activists got involved (and the conservative backlash). The issue was exceedingly rare. Children would very rarely be transitioned and the standard was very high for doing so. The ncaa rules were compassionate yet set a fairly high standard and they were evolving based on scientific knowledge as it developed.
the politicization of this issue has been disastrous for all concerned (except the activists on both right and left). We aren’t making any progress on the issue either: it’s going to develop into a red state blue state split so good luck to y’all in California.
Just to make sure I understand the transphobe position on this:
The mere possibility that someday a trans girl might possibly be offered a college scholarship (although that has apparently never happened in the entire history of our planet) is so dangerous to the fabric of our society that no 13 year old trans girl should be allowed to play on a girl's team even on clubs and in leagues that decide it is ok with them? The sanctity of children's sports is just so important that we must make an exception from our free market economic principals and bar private entities that are ok with it from being allowed to let trans girls play with other girls? We should also ban the public ones that believe it is appropriate, although those rules were implemented through democratic processes. Democracy absolutely, positively needs to take a backseat when we are dealing with horrors of this magnitude?
Do I have it right?
The mere possibility that someday a trans girl might possibly be offered a college scholarship (although that has apparently never happened in the entire history of our planet) is so dangerous to the fabric of our society that no 13 year old trans girl should be allowed to play on a girl's team even on clubs and in leagues that decide it is ok with them? The sanctity of children's sports is just so important that we must make an exception from our free market economic principals and bar private entities that are ok with it from being allowed to let trans girls play with other girls? We should also ban the public ones that believe it is appropriate, although those rules were implemented through democratic processes. Democracy absolutely, positively needs to take a backseat when we are dealing with horrors of this magnitude?
Do I have it right?
LOL you have comprehension issues. Colleges are not giving out scholarships to trans women. I do not believe it has ever happened, but feel free to prove otherwise. Furthermore, and as I have said before, there is always room for one more walk on. I am not aware of anyone who was denied a roster spot because of a trans player. No one is. Because it does not happen. Lots of programs "fill up" but then end up adding players.
No, the best argument for inclusion of trans girls is that it is the right thing to do. It is, uh, inclusive. Winning and losing at kiddie sports doesn't matter compared to creating a society that doesn't hate trans people and that trolls those who continue to hate. But you are also right that it is so rare that it isn't a big deal.
This is dangerous because a man can hurt a women. None of us get to decide if we are born male with a Penis or a female with a Yoni. The girls have their leagues Surf Futbol and no boys can play. Girls only. Gays can play, they just have to be a female gay biologically not a gay man wanting to be a female and use the girls bathroom. I'm sorry but this is about brute force of a man vs a women and physical power that a man has, even the man who feels like a woman. Swimming is the first college test to see how many will turn the other cheek and allow this form of cheating in sport to go on. .
Of course you don’t have it right. You never intended to get it right.
The argument, as you well know, is that it is unfair to enter an XY athlete into an XX athletic contest.
Now stop calling everyone transphobe and deal with the real argument.
Female athletes warn NCAA to ‘keep women’s sports female’ or face lawsuit
Current and former female collegiate athletes warned Thursday that they will sue the NCAA unless the association eliminates its policies allowing male-born students who identify as female to compete in women’s sports.
www.washingtontimes.com
“We’re here and we’re not going to stop speaking and advocating until we know women’s sports have rules in place that defend integrity and fairness for female athletes,” said Smith, co-founder of the Independent Council on Women’s Sports [ICONS].
The demands include repealing policies that “allow male athletes to take roster spots on women’s teams and/or compete in women’s events”; establishing rules to “keep women’s sports female,” and requiring colleges to provide single-sex female locker rooms.
“If you do not protect female athletes from discrimination on the basis of sex, we will embark on legal action to compel you to do so,” said the Thursday letter from attorneys for the Jackson Bone law firm on behalf of ICONS and eight other women’s organizations.
GLangevinito
SILVER
Holy moly you are dramatic.
There is a reason we don't allow boys to play vs girls and men vs women. A biological one. It's about safety, and it's about fairness.
You may be willing to sacrifice fairness for inclusivity, but lots of people care that competitions are fair for all involved. It's why we have referees.
Surf Zombie
GOLD
If you think the sports issue is contentious, how about this:
California prisons grapple with hundreds of transgender inmates requesting new housing
There have been more than 260 requests for housing transfers this year under a new law that gives transgender, intersex and nonbinary inmates the right, regardless of anatomy, to be housed based on their gender identity.
Get ready for the lawsuits that are going to flow from this. At least one female inmate has already been impregnated.
kickingandscreaming
PREMIER
Truth
kickingandscreaming
PREMIER
Only one? Demi has two to her name.If you think the sports issue is contentious, how about this:
California prisons grapple with hundreds of transgender inmates requesting new housing
There have been more than 260 requests for housing transfers this year under a new law that gives transgender, intersex and nonbinary inmates the right, regardless of anatomy, to be housed based on their gender identity.news.yahoo.com
Get ready for the lawsuits that are going to flow from this. At least one female inmate has already been impregnated.
Exclusive | Trans prisoner who impregnated two female inmates is ‘psychopath’: foster mom
Depending on who you ask, the 27-year-old inmate who impregnated two women in a New Jersey prison earlier this year is either a martyr to the transgender cause — or a cold-blooded killer who got in…
nypost.com
actually one of the prior drivers of title ix was inclusivity. It was to get more women to play sports and to force schools to open up more places for athletics than just gridiron football. Fairness had little to do with it. Fairness would have been opening a women’s division in gridiron football. They didn’t do that.
fairness is also in the eye of the beholder. Why after all should a sport as unpopular as field hockey be needed to balance the scholarships from football when clearly it’s football the students, alumni and audiences demand? Hint: inclusivity…to give women an opportunity to play Even though across the board their play is lesser. Again, how is that fair to the male soccer player who is an all around better player than his female equivalent but doesn’t get a scholarship because of the males on the gridiron football team and the fact women weren’t forced to/give the opportunity to play football (btw there is a movement afoot for women’s flag football teams…the move for it has been building including in Sunday leagues and cif…if it takes off the female soccer world is going to be turned on its head so y’all will be lucky your kids will have aged out 10 years from now)
The original objective of Title IX had nothing to do with sports. It was addressing the difficulty women were experiencing when attempting to get into law schools, medical schools, and other graduate programs.
Uh, when you say "we don't allow boys to play vs girls and men vs women", you are obviously wrong. The Olympics has allowed transgender participation for 20 years and the NCAA for over a decade. I don't know how long ECNL and most other youth sports programs have allowed trans participation, but it has also been a while.
I am sorry if your daughter isn't good enough to make a team that has a trans player, but that only means her career was coming to an end anyway. She can feel free to play in one of those co-ed leagues or maybe rec.