Vaccine

dad4 said:
Your “natural immunity works great” message does ignore the 800,000 dead people.
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Not really. That number was always baked in.

We are not a big or small island like Aus/NZ. We were never going to be that authoritarian, not allowing people in or out, etc.

Our numbers overall are rather similar to the Euro zone where everyone did different things to try to prevent and all roughly ended up at the same point.

You and others have this delusion that we were just going to lock up, not let anyone in or out, going rather authoritarian and then that would work and be the ideal solution.

It would not have mattered a bit if it were a D or R with the presidency at the start of this. We would still be around the same numbers.
 
dad4 said:
Your risks? It’s not all about you.

Health policy bureaucrats are asked to worry about the health of the community as a whole.
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I'll rely on my doctor, thanks. There are many ways to skin this cat, we shouldn't be forced by the government to take their imperfect treatment.

Look on one far side you have those that are afraid and/or government reliant that will do what the government instructs them to do pretty much no questions asked. On the other far end you have the anti-government types that regardless of how good it may be they aren't going to do it because the recommendation simply came from the government. Most people are in the middle and weigh the cost-benefits personally but in many cases community wise as well. They require a compelling reason like effectiveness and alternatives to follow the governments recommendation. If it was that great, you would only have the anti-government types avoiding the vaccine. A red flag gets raised when you have to coerce, bribe and mandate to force someone to get the vaccine.
 
watfly said:
A red flag gets raised when you have to coerce, bribe and mandate to force someone to get the vaccine.
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Mandates get under the skin of a lot of people.

Even more so when this is a new vaccine (different ones from the pharma companies) and there has been NO LONG TERM studies on it. To force people who have really no risk to take something that hasn't been studied over the long term is not good policy and is going to rightly get a lot of pushback.
 
Hüsker Dü said:
Let me get this straight, is it your opinion that if a vaccination isn’t 100% full proof, whether it provides any protection at all, it is useless?
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Not opinion, "produce immunity" is literally in the definition of vaccination, this isn't it. Going through life stuck on stupid should not be a goal.
 
Desert Hound said:
Mandates get under the skin of a lot of people.

Even more so when this is a new vaccine (different ones from the pharma companies) and there has been NO LONG TERM studies on it. To force people who have really no risk to take something that hasn't been studied over the long term is not good policy and is going to rightly get a lot of pushback.
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And as I finished up writing the above...I came across this news story regarding the CDC and a vaccine.

Vaccine advisers to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention are meeting Thursday to weigh possible limits on the use of the Johnson & Johnson vaccine because of continued blood clot issues, mostly in young and middle-aged women, according to clinicians familiar with the agenda.

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In other words they are finding issues and that certain groups are having issues.

And yet people here and in power want to MANDATE people to take a vaccine that has not had long term studies done at it. And failure to do so may lead some people to lose their jobs.

Bad policy. Terrible policy.

Dad has been on here before stating these vaxxes are safe. So have the other usual suspects.

The truth is we are still finding stuff out.

www.seattletimes.com

CDC advisers to weigh limits on Johnson & Johnson vaccine because of continued blood clot issues

Vaccine advisers to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention will weigh possible limits on the use of the Johnson & Johnson vaccine because of continued blood clot issues, mostly in young and middle-aged women.
www.seattletimes.com www.seattletimes.com
 
dad4 said:
Huge problem?

Only in areas with enough old and overweight people that the hospitals can get overwhelmed. That describes US, Europe, and a few smaller places.

But much of the world is young, thin, and in summer. They’ll be more like South Africa than UK.

The other case is East Asia. I’m not up for discussing NPI effectiveness with you again. But I think China and Japan will be fine.
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A. You haven’t looked at the BMI index in China recently have you…as they gotten richer it’s gone bigger…same with age
B. The experiences in Latin America beg to differ
C. I thought your main concern was more variants. That’s a billion more chances for variants.
D. If Asia turns out all right it will be because of preexisting T cell immunity, genetics and/or the very harsh prc measures
 
watfly said:
I'll rely on my doctor, thanks. There are many ways to skin this cat, we shouldn't be forced by the government to take their imperfect treatment.

Look on one far side you have those that are afraid and/or government reliant that will do what the government instructs them to do pretty much no questions asked. On the other far end you have the anti-government types that regardless of how good it may be they aren't going to do it because the recommendation simply came from the government. Most people are in the middle and weigh the cost-benefits personally but in many cases community wise as well. They require a compelling reason like effectiveness and alternatives to follow the governments recommendation. If it was that great, you would only have the anti-government types avoiding the vaccine. A red flag gets raised when you have to coerce, bribe and mandate to force someone to get the vaccine.
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Misinformation and bold face lies can persuade many in the middle. That’s how trump got elected, that’s why people don’t trust one flank of the media because the other flank told them not to, that they were the sole purveyors of the truth (silly ain’t it?), it’s called propaganda at least it use to be called that, now it’s just how we are being ‘informed’ in many cases . . . but hey, we bite, they feed.
 
Hüsker Dü said:
Misinformation and bold face lies can persuade many in the middle. That’s how trump got elected, that’s why people don’t trust one flank of the media because the other flank told them not to, that they were the sole purveyors of the truth (silly ain’t it?), it’s called propaganda at least it use to be called that, now it’s just how we are being ‘informed’ in many cases . . . but hey, we bite, they feed.
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Your right:
www.reuters.com

Democrat Biden warns against rushing out coronavirus vaccine, says Trump cannot be trusted

Democratic presidential candidate Joe Biden on Wednesday rejected President Donald Trump's charge that he is spreading fear about the safety of a potential coronavirus vaccine, urging Trump to defer to scientists and not rush its rollout.
www.reuters.com www.reuters.com

Not justifying it but plenty of misinformation from both sides. Some wasn't so much blatant misinformation as unsupported speculation like CDC saying vaccination = no mask.

Not a Trump guy so you're barking up the wrong tree again. BTW, I don't think Trump won the election as much as Hilary lost the election. Unfortunately our options were terrible. The fact that he won illustrates how bad a candidate she was.
 
watfly said:
I'll rely on my doctor, thanks. There are many ways to skin this cat, we shouldn't be forced by the government to take their imperfect treatment.

Look on one far side you have those that are afraid and/or government reliant that will do what the government instructs them to do pretty much no questions asked. On the other far end you have the anti-government types that regardless of how good it may be they aren't going to do it because the recommendation simply came from the government. Most people are in the middle and weigh the cost-benefits personally but in many cases community wise as well. They require a compelling reason like effectiveness and alternatives to follow the governments recommendation. If it was that great, you would only have the anti-government types avoiding the vaccine. A red flag gets raised when you have to coerce, bribe and mandate to force someone to get the vaccine.
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You skipped the role of deliberate disinformation.

It’s very easy to take a rare side effect and make it sound huge. Just talk about the effect, and remove any numbers which tell you probability.

Look at Hound’s post above. A ton of fear mongering, but not a single word telling you how common it is. The actual numbers are around 3 cases per million people vaccinated. Even that was too much for CDC, so they are recommending women choose Moderna or Pfizer. But, the author wants to convince you that the vaccines are unsafe. So he omits the probabilities entirely.

This stunt is bipartisan. NYT did the same thing with long covid among teenagers. Talk up the effect, ignore the probabilities. Make it sound unsafe.

As a result, Republicans vastly overestimate the risks of the vaccine, and Democrats vastly overestimate the risks of the virus. Neither side ends up well informed.
 
CDC advisory panel recommends Pfizer and Modern vaccines over Johnson & Johnson
The recommendation comes after nine deaths linked to Johnson & Johnson's vaccine
 
watfly said:
Your right:
www.reuters.com

Democrat Biden warns against rushing out coronavirus vaccine, says Trump cannot be trusted

Democratic presidential candidate Joe Biden on Wednesday rejected President Donald Trump's charge that he is spreading fear about the safety of a potential coronavirus vaccine, urging Trump to defer to scientists and not rush its rollout.
www.reuters.com www.reuters.com

Not justifying it but plenty of misinformation from both sides. Some wasn't so much blatant misinformation as unsupported speculation like CDC saying vaccination = no mask.

Not a Trump guy so you're barking up the wrong tree again. BTW, I don't think Trump won the election as much as Hilary lost the election. Unfortunately our options were terrible. The fact that he won illustrates how bad a candidate she was.
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Agree with most of that, but yes evolution is inevitable.
 
The J&J vaccine might be on the chopping block....I also don't under the rationale if blood clots are such a concern, why are they pulling the J&J shot, but not restricting the mRNA vaccines in the under 30 males?

www.npr.org

CDC narrows use of J&J vaccine due to concerns about rare blood clots

The agency implemented experts' advice because of a rare and sometimes fatal blood-clotting problem known as TTS. More than 16 million people in the U.S. have received a shot of the J&J vaccine.
www.npr.org www.npr.org
 
Grace T. said:
The J&J vaccine might be on the chopping block....I also don't under the rationale if blood clots are such a concern, why are they pulling the J&J shot, but not restricting the mRNA vaccines in the under 30 males?

www.npr.org

CDC narrows use of J&J vaccine due to concerns about rare blood clots

The agency implemented experts' advice because of a rare and sometimes fatal blood-clotting problem known as TTS. More than 16 million people in the U.S. have received a shot of the J&J vaccine.
www.npr.org www.npr.org
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p.s. small editorial....if they do pull the J&J or severely restrict it, I think it will be the final nail in the credibility of the roughly 1/3 of the public that is now leaning skeptical of the public health advisors. Coupled with the mask story from the Atlantic, it will have burned the remaining good will of public health with the panic skeptical community (from my quick initial read of the twitter response). The question then is does it carry the middle 30%....it might.
 
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