Bad News Thread

[dad4]

So the pattern at least fits with a substantial life protective effect in high vax Western countries although we're clearly arm chair quarterbacking with a small subset of data. Encouraging though. As the data emerges, things epidemiologists will be wondering in making policy recommendations include: so we got a mixture of people who appear to be more resistant to at least the Covid19 part of Cov-2, likely as a result of acquired immunity through previous infection, through vaxx, or both. We've also got a higher burst variant that's coming on strong. For those that test positive by PCR (which I assume largely = cases), maybe show a range of non-life threatening symptoms, what sort of viral titer are they producing? Its possible that the numbers right now could mean that the increase in viral production associated with the delta variant basically just cause people that would have been asymptomatic to now feel low level symptoms and therefore go get tested and get scored as cases, even though their lives were never in any danger. In that case the data might indicate that with delta we are just going more effective sampling. Or it could be that with vaxx there is now just a longer lag between cases and morbidity in susceptible people, especially if we bin the mortality data by age or other co-morbities. How much protection are the most susceptible segments of the population getting? Stuff like that. Everyone's really tired of this but we're just now starting to get a look at what the vaccines might be doing out there in the real world.

Best case scenario would be that the most effective vaccines not only save peoples lives but also substantially lower the amount of virus produced during an infection.

You should be able to look at the rate of increase in places with very high vax rates. Pick places with so many vaccinations that you’d expect some herd immunity.

If those places have a high rate of case growth, then it may be that Delta can spread though the vaccinated population.

Just looked at Vermont, Massachusetts, and San Francisco. All three have cases doubling in 1 week or less. So, either they have a VERY social anti-vax minority, or Delta is spreading through the vax majority. (though perhaps not bothering them much as it moves about.)

 

[whatithink]

Fauci's game was to keep insisting that there was no proof he specifically funded the covid-19 creation itself -- while ignoring Paul's point that he had previously denied funding any gain of function research at Wuhan, which now is proven to be a lie.

I'm pretty sure Fauci got distracted from the gain of function because Paul said he was responsible for 4M deaths and that caught his attention. Paul then backed off that and went back to gain of function, while Fauci was still caught up in refuting the accusation that he was complicit in the deaths of 4M people.

On balance, I kinda think I might be more inclined to deal with the 4M death accusation in a limited time frame, than the gain of function one, but maybe others would ignore that.

I do think the gain of function defense he had seemed weak (qualified people up and down the chain all agreed it wasn't) vs Paul's definition and reading of what happened. Then again, I'm not qualified to read the report or make the assessment. Bottom line is that the US government (among others) funds research into all manner of things, many of them dangerous and deadly. We just don't want to know unless they get out. All this funding comes from ... Congress.

 

[Desert Hound]

I'm pretty sure Fauci got distracted from the gain of function because Paul said he was responsible for 4M deaths and that caught his attention.

No that actually refers to testimony he had some time before....ie another date.

Since that time info came out showing there was in fact funding paid that went to the Wuhan lab.

So his story has changed.

 

[whatithink]

No that actually refers to testimony he had some time before....ie another date.

Since that time info came out showing there was in fact funding paid that went to the Wuhan lab.

So his story has changed.

I'm not particularly defending Fauci, and as I said, I thought his defense was weak, i.e. qualified people said it wasn't. You could say he dealt with it and moved on to the far more egregious accusation by Paul that he was complicit in the deaths of 4M people. Paul shouldn't have said that and just stuck to the gain of function.

Let's be honest, if you take Paul's apparent argumentative thread on the 4M dead and Fauci or whoever approved the spend as being responsible, then you could surely say that Congress actually approved the spend, so the House and Senate are responsible for 4M dead. Throw in the fact that Congress has various oversight committees and the ability to review what is being spent, and they have full power over the purse strings, including these. Add both Obama and Trump who would have signed off on the spend and you've gone all the way to the top.

I'm good with that.

 

[Grace T.]

I'm not particularly defending Fauci, and as I said, I thought his defense was weak, i.e. qualified people said it wasn't. You could say he dealt with it and moved on to the far more egregious accusation by Paul that he was complicit in the deaths of 4M people. Paul shouldn't have said that and just stuck to the gain of function.

Let's be honest, if you take Paul's apparent argumentative thread on the 4M dead and Fauci or whoever approved the spend as being responsible, then you could surely say that Congress actually approved the spend, so the House and Senate are responsible for 4M dead. Throw in the fact that Congress has various oversight committees and the ability to review what is being spent, and they have full power over the purse strings, including these. Add both Obama and Trump who would have signed off on the spend and you've gone all the way to the top.

I'm good with that.

Neither obama nor trump would have reviewed the level of detail in the budget for a grant to some third party (checked to see what the third party was and what it did) and line itemed it (us presidents do not have a line item power). They are both responsible only in a buck stops here sort of way (as is Biden to the extent he hasn’t fired fauci for it). Congress is a little more true since as you say they have oversight power…but they’ve surrendered a lot of that detail oversight to the executive over the years (hence recent flurries or executive orders).

 

[Bruddah IZ]

In an acute respiratory virus epidemic, natural immunity as general health throughout the population determines how many and whom in the population is the most susceptible. Same thing with cold and flu. Natural immunity as adaptive immunity to prior infection rather than vaxx is likely a big chunk of the adaptive immunity that's out there. So what's being overlooked or not considered? Peeks behind the curtain. Is this a herd immunity thing?

Yes. Herd immunity and therapies being overlooked. My buddy Duane turned 89 this year. Caught COVID last November and was touch and go until he got some prednisone to sort him out. Celebrated his 89th about a month ago!

 

[whatithink]

Neither obama nor trump would have reviewed the level of detail in the budget for a grant to some third party (checked to see what the third party was and what it did) and line itemed it (us presidents do not have a line item power). They are both responsible only in a buck stops here sort of way (as is Biden to the extent he hasn’t fired fauci for it). Congress is a little more true since as you say they have oversight power…but they’ve surrendered a lot of that detail oversight to the executive over the years (hence recent flurries or executive orders).

My point is that Congress, and Paul in particular, are always grandstanding to blame someone, anyone, after the fact, for political gain. They have absolutely, as you say, surrendered their power and their constitutional role, for what - short term political expediency.

As for Presidents - they can kill it immediately.

Quote
"In 2014 the administration of US President Barack Obama called for a “pause” on funding (and relevant research with existing US Government funding) of GOF experiments involving influenza, SARS, and MERS viruses in particular."

Gain-of-Function Research: Ethical Analysis - PMC

Gain-of-function (GOF) research involves experimentation that aims or is expected to (and/or, perhaps, actually does) increase the transmissibility and/or virulence of pathogens. Such research, when conducted by responsible scientists, usually aims ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Bruddah IZ]

My point is that Congress, and Paul in particular, are always grandstanding to blame someone, anyone, after the fact, for political gain. They have absolutely, as you say, surrendered their power and their constitutional role, for what - short term political expediency.

As for Presidents - they can kill it immediately.

Quote
"In 2014 the administration of US President Barack Obama called for a “pause” on funding (and relevant research with existing US Government funding) of GOF experiments involving influenza, SARS, and MERS viruses in particular."

Gain-of-Function Research: Ethical Analysis - PMC

Gain-of-function (GOF) research involves experimentation that aims or is expected to (and/or, perhaps, actually does) increase the transmissibility and/or virulence of pathogens. Such research, when conducted by responsible scientists, usually aims ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Certainly wouldn't be the first time government funded a crisis just so that they would have something to fix.

 

[Desert Hound]

Quote
"In 2014 the administration of US President Barack Obama called for a “pause” on funding (and relevant research with existing US Government funding) of GOF experiments involving influenza, SARS, and MERS viruses in particular."

And despite that funding continued on, which Fauci was aware of.

At the beginning of this when it was floated it was possibly man made he said not possible. This despite him on email communications receiving info that indeed it may be.

His story has changed on this over time.

Do politicians grandstand? All day long they do.

On this though Paul is right. Fauci in earlier testimony said no funding had gone towards gain of function. Turns out that is not correct.

The real question though regardless of covid is why are we sending money to China to do any of this kind of research in the first place? And why if we are doing to do it, why continue funding when internal reports show there was concern regarding their safety procedures?

One might also ask why did funding continue on despite O calling for a pause on this type of research? Do agencies just do what they want and ignore what Presidents say? That was a trick question. Of course they do.

 

[Desert Hound]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1416725826289106946

 

[espola]

“no evidence”?

That is not credible. I’ve read scientific evidence for a lab leak. Maybe this particular researcher believes it is insufficient, but you can’t say it does not exist. (Worse, the claim of “no evidence” is a bad sign. Your source is either poorly informed, or choosing to deliberately misrepresent what evidence exists. My guess is #2- He disagrees with the other side, therefore he pretends they do not exist.)

The simplest evidence for a lab leak is the flat refusal of CCP to allow anyone to look at the lab. This also hampers any search for a zoonotic origin. It is the world’s best repository of bat virus samples, and we do not even know what is there. By now, the entire collection and research notes should be digitized, externally verified, and freely available to any qualified researcher working on the problem.

Can you share a link to the credible scientific evidence you have read?

Have you found that scientific evidence yet? It might help with trying to understand the current controversy.

 

[what-happened]

Have you found that scientific evidence yet? It might help with trying to understand the current controversy.

We are dealing with the government, no science needed. If they think it's plausible that it was a lab leak, then we should all be on board - simple as that. Trust in your government, no ifs, ands, or buts.

 

[espola]

We are dealing with the government, no science needed. If they think it's plausible that it was a lab leak, then we should all be on board - simple as that. Trust in your government, no ifs, ands, or buts.

Which "they" are you referring to?

I was responding to Dad4'a claim "I’ve read scientific evidence for a lab leak" in response to a scholarly review article that said there was no such evidence.

Just looking for clarity.

 

[Desert Hound]

Which "they" are you referring to?

I was responding to Dad4'a claim "I’ve read scientific evidence for a lab leak" in response to a scholarly review article that said there was no such evidence.

Just looking for clarity.

There have been a number of prominent scientists that now say it is in the realm of possibility this was a lab leak.

An article out yesterday talking about how much of Biden's top advisors have also come to this conclusion.

You can look it up. I am not looking for links for you.

 

[espola]

There have been a number of prominent scientists that now say it is in the realm of possibility this was a lab leak.

An article out yesterday talking about how much of Biden's top advisors have also come to this conclusion.

You can look it up. I am not looking for links for you.

You read it, but you don't know where?

Typical.

 

[Desert Hound]

So we have been on an exceptional spending spree.

Inflation is back.


"The latest June data already show price inflation at a 13-year high, with prices having risen 5.4 percent year-over-year. Proponents of the big-government policies driving much of this increase insist the uptick in prices is only temporary. But billionaire and grocery chain CEO John Catsimatidis just predicted that overall price inflation, for consumer goods generally, will hit a 6 percent annualized rate by October.

In an interview with Fox Business, the CEO warned that his industry is seeing skyrocketing costs on the supply chain side, and that businesses will have to raise prices for consumers as a result.

“Food prices are getting higher, and we expect even more increases by October,” Catsimatidis said. “You have to pass [those extra costs] on [to consumers] or you’re not doing your duty to God, your country, your employees, and your company.”

While we can’t know for certain, Catsimatidis said rising costs could mean an astounding 10 to 14 percent specific increase in grocery prices by October. That’s truly a shocking amount. But this warning offers more than insight into the grocery industry. It’s a painful reminder of how price inflation hurts everyday Americans."

Grocery Prices Could Rise 10 to 14 Percent By October, Grocery Chain CEO Warns

“Food prices are getting higher, and we expect even more increases by October,” billionaire and grocery chain CEO John Catsimatidis said.

fee.org

Unrestrained spending is leading to the above issues.

With that in mind consider that the Dems want a 3.7 trillion "infrastructure bill". To put that into perspective. In 2019 the entire budget was 4.4 trillion.

If that thing passes, get ready for a lot more "unintended" consequences. Inflation being one of them.

By the way, been to a gas station recently?

All this spending hurts everyone, but really hurts the people that can least afford it.

 

[dad4]

Which "they" are you referring to?

I was responding to Dad4'a claim "I’ve read scientific evidence for a lab leak" in response to a scholarly review article that said there was no such evidence.

Just looking for clarity.

If you wanted clarity, you'd be reading the Nature article on the topic.

The evidence I was thinking of is the double CGG arginine encoding. It works, but it is a weird way to say arginine- especially twice in a row.

I don't mind a debate on the strength of CGG CGG as evidence. But it is misleading to say "no evidence exists". That statement is probably false.

 

[espola]

If you wanted clarity, you'd be reading the Nature article on the topic.

The evidence I was thinking of is the double CGG arginine encoding. It works, but it is a weird way to say arginine- especially twice in a row.

I don't mind a debate on the strength of CGG CGG as evidence. But it is misleading to say "no evidence exists". That statement is probably false.

What does CGG CGG have to do with the covid vaccine?

Please try to keep it simple - I'm no biologist.

 

[dad4]

What does CGG CGG have to do with the covid vaccine?

Please try to keep it simple - I'm no biologist.

DNA and RNA triples encode for amino acids. CGG is one of the ways to encode arginine. It is uncommon, but not unknown, in coronaviruses.

One key mutation that makes covid 19 work so well is a double CGG at just the right spot to help it attack human cells.

This is evidence that the mutation was part of gain of function research (where CGG is common) and not part of natural evolution ( where CGG is uncommon.)

No smoking gun, but not "no evidence" either.

 

[whatithink]

So we have been on an exceptional spending spree.

Inflation is back.


"The latest June data already show price inflation at a 13-year high, with prices having risen 5.4 percent year-over-year. Proponents of the big-government policies driving much of this increase insist the uptick in prices is only temporary. But billionaire and grocery chain CEO John Catsimatidis just predicted that overall price inflation, for consumer goods generally, will hit a 6 percent annualized rate by October.

In an interview with Fox Business, the CEO warned that his industry is seeing skyrocketing costs on the supply chain side, and that businesses will have to raise prices for consumers as a result.

“Food prices are getting higher, and we expect even more increases by October,” Catsimatidis said. “You have to pass [those extra costs] on [to consumers] or you’re not doing your duty to God, your country, your employees, and your company.”

While we can’t know for certain, Catsimatidis said rising costs could mean an astounding 10 to 14 percent specific increase in grocery prices by October. That’s truly a shocking amount. But this warning offers more than insight into the grocery industry. It’s a painful reminder of how price inflation hurts everyday Americans."

Grocery Prices Could Rise 10 to 14 Percent By October, Grocery Chain CEO Warns

“Food prices are getting higher, and we expect even more increases by October,” billionaire and grocery chain CEO John Catsimatidis said.

fee.org

Unrestrained spending is leading to the above issues.

With that in mind consider that the Dems want a 3.7 trillion "infrastructure bill". To put that into perspective. In 2019 the entire budget was 4.4 trillion.

If that thing passes, get ready for a lot more "unintended" consequences. Inflation being one of them.

By the way, been to a gas station recently?

All this spending hurts everyone, but really hurts the people that can least afford it.

Isn't the infrastructure bill a 10-year planned spend? I also thought the current one is $1.2T, not $3.7T. Big numbers, but comparing a 10-year number to an annual number is disingenuous.

How is "unrestrained spending" leading to grocery price increases caused by "skyrocketing costs on the supply chain side"?

 

[espola]

DNA and RNA triples encode for amino acids. CGG is one of the ways to encode arginine. It is uncommon, but not unknown, in coronaviruses.

One key mutation that makes covid 19 work so well is a double CGG at just the right spot to help it attack human cells.

This is evidence that the mutation was part of gain of function research (where CGG is common) and not part of natural evolution ( where CGG is uncommon.)

No smoking gun, but not "no evidence" either.

" a double CGG at just the right spot to help it attack human cells."

How does that work?