President Joe Biden

The Dems have been batty ever since 2016.

In today’s overreach by Democrats, Nancy Pelosi is demanding that the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff block Trump’s access to the nuclear codes—for no other purpose than to continue smearing Trump as crazy and dangerous.



“This morning, I spoke to the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Mark Milley to discuss available precautions for preventing an unstable president from initiating military hostilities or accessing the launch codes and ordering a nuclear strike,” Pelosi (D-Calif.) wrote.
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Grace T. said:
To overturn an election result it's not legally enough to show there was fraud. You have to show that but for the fraud you would have won (and in many cases the remedy on the state level would be to have a new election). You have to prove that the fraud was of sufficient margins that it actually made a material difference.

It's a 2 part test. He had evidence of the first, he couldn't prove the second. If you, a sophisticated soccerite on your computer, can't grasp that distinction very easily (not at insult...just a reality for people who haven't been trained in legal thinking), how much less the Trumpist.
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I completely get it, I was just trying understand what you were trying to communicate. In simple terms, there was election fraud, like every election, but no material impact to the election results. So in even more simpler words, Trump had no case. He rode the election fraud narrative knowing there was no meat to it. His base was incapable of listening to other republican officials (GA SOS, etc) debunking all of Trump's claims. Who's to blame for that? Should I have empathy for them for not being able to discern the truth here? Is it Fox's fault?

As an aside, I can't tell what your political ideology is. Not suggesting it's important to know this, but when you say things like "There always is but this time round there was more of an effort at it....partially because of a feeling on the left that Trump was too dangerous to leave in office and anything is justified in removing him as a result.", where are you getting that? Election fraud examples I've seen so far have benefitted both parties.
 
whatithink said:
I'm not defending Clinton, but its very selective to exclusively blame Clinton for something written by and passed by Republicans. Politicians in the US do not "take their licks in the election" on either side of the aisle.
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Totally agree with this so long as you hold the others to the same standards....Reagan, both Bushes, Clinton, Obama and Trump. I've been making a similar argument with Trump and the health care policy experts (which he has little ability to fire).
 
Grace T. said:
Totally agree with this so long as you hold the others to the same standards....Reagan, both Bushes, Clinton, Obama and Trump. I've been making a similar argument with Trump and the health care policy experts (which he has little ability to fire).
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Now Obama did it?!? How dare a black dude become president! All it’s going to do is get all these magats worked up to the point that they have no choice but to overthrow the government!
 
tenacious said:
Well... if you see the rising crime stats in the nations inner cities that came with cut backs in policing... apparently not having enough cops around is what should be scaring people more bad cops.

I understand the struggles are very real. But good intentions aren't enough. I'm all for this 'war on racisim' mind you. I just want to make sure we do it in a way that we can win.
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For sure, this is an incredibly complicated problem. I'd point out though that inner city crime is a symptom of systemic racism. Perhaps more officers isn't the solution. Figuring out how to improve the lives and opportunity of folks in these communities could be a better use of time and money. No idea otherwise.
 
Desert Hound said:
The Dems keep making voting easier. And by that I mean easier to do it illegally.

We really should have OR get rid of the following.

- We need voter ID. There is no good basis not to make that a requirement. We have to have an ID for so many basic things in life, voting should be one of them
- Mail in voting is extremely susceptible to fraud. There is no good chain of custody/verification. After the 2000 election there was a commission with Carter and other prominent Ds and Rs. One of they biggest concerns was vote by mail. Mail in voting should really be limited to those people who for whatever reason CANNOT make it in to vote in person.
- We shouldn't allow ballot harvesting. With power/money at stake, there is a very large incentive to manipulate how this is done.
- We need to on a regular basis purge our voter rolls. Eliminate dead people, people who have moved, etc.
- We can't have as was done in some states have drop boxes where people can just come by and drop votes. Basically who know what goes on at these temporary sites.
- Early voting should be limited. We shouldn't allow voting to happen a month or so in advance. So many things can and do happen politically that it makes sense for voting to take place much closer to the actual date.
- We should absolutely NOT allow the press to make predictions, talk about results until ALL the voting areas in the US are closed. It has the affect of potentially suppressing people from voting if they think their national candidate has lost. The could affect the national vote BUT also affect the vote as it relates to local races and propositions.

There are some other ones that should be done.
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I don't have any problem with your points, but we need more.

To your last point, I think Ireland have a 3 day cooling off period prior to election day whereby no polls or electioneering are allowed, and obv. nothing on election day.

We should have the same system as Australia, voting levels are always above 90%. Everyone has to vote (legal requirement). If you do not vote, you will be fined. Election day is a public holiday.

There should be laws against voter suppression.

There should be independent redistricting commissions in every state - no gerrymandering.

If politicians or parties are afraid of everyone voting and putting barriers in place to prevent people voting, then you know they are actively trying to "steal" elections.

Registering to vote should be simple, & if an ID is required, it should be free to obtain, simple to get and simple to update.
 
NorCalDad said:
I completely get it, I was just trying understand what you were trying to communicate. In simple terms, there was election fraud, like every election, but no material impact to the election results. So in even more simpler words, Trump had no case. He rode the election fraud narrative knowing there was no meat to it. His base was incapable of listening to other republican officials (GA SOS, etc) debunking all of Trump's claims. Who's to blame for that? Should I have empathy for them for not being able to discern the truth here? Is it Fox's fault?

As an aside, I can't tell what your political ideology is. Not suggesting it's important to know this, but when you say things like "There always is but this time round there was more of an effort at it....partially because of a feeling on the left that Trump was too dangerous to leave in office and anything is justified in removing him as a result.", where are you getting that? Election fraud examples I've seen so far have benefitted both parties.
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1. Yes, legally he has no case (at least not one he can prove). But no, they do have a rational basis to complain (even if such complaint isn't legally actionable). People generally can't hold that 2 things can be true at once....

2. I'm all over politically. Was a fervent Obama supporter, very disappointed by the way the left in particular handled the pandemic and am fervently anti-Newsom. I generally lean center right, am an establishmentarian, but even in HS maintained an outsider approach (was the black sheep of the honors program and was constantly on the outs for firebombing them) so I can relate to where the extremists on both the right and left are coming from.

3. Trump Derangement syndrome is a thing. It's not unreasonable to assume that some on the left took it upon themselves to do what they had to do in order to make sure he didn't win.
 
Grace T. said:
1. Yes, legally he has no case (at least not one he can prove). But no, they do have a rational basis to complain (even if such complaint isn't legally actionable). People generally can't hold that 2 things can be true at once....

2. I'm all over politically. Was a fervent Obama supporter, very disappointed by the way the left in particular handled the pandemic and am fervently anti-Newsom. I generally lean center right, am an establishmentarian, but even in HS maintained an outsider approach (was the black sheep of the honors program and was constantly on the outs for firebombing them) so I can relate to where the extremists on both the right and left are coming from.

3. Trump Derangement syndrome is a thing. It's not unreasonable to assume that some on the left took it upon themselves to do what they had to do in order to make sure he didn't win.
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Ok, now Karen-Grace has gone from claiming Mr Marmalade Magat proved election fraud to admitting he can’t prove it but has a “rational basis” to maybe believe it. She is correct when she says she’s all over the place.

And my God, will someone please tell her that repeatedly touting what she did in HS is not the resume builder she thinks it is?
 
Grace T. said:
1. Yes, legally he has no case (at least not one he can prove). But no, they do have a rational basis to complain (even if such complaint isn't legally actionable). People generally can't hold that 2 things can be true at once....

2. I'm all over politically. Was a fervent Obama supporter, very disappointed by the way the left in particular handled the pandemic and am fervently anti-Newsom. I generally lean center right, am an establishmentarian, but even in HS maintained an outsider approach (was the black sheep of the honors program and was constantly on the outs for firebombing them) so I can relate to where the extremists on both the right and left are coming from.

3. Trump Derangement syndrome is a thing. It's not unreasonable to assume that some on the left took it upon themselves to do what they had to do in order to make sure he didn't win.
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1 - But they aren't just complaining that there was election fraud. They are complaining because they think there is enough election fraud to change the results. Their complaint is absolutely intertwined. Otherwise, why storm the capitol? I mean "Stop the Steal" sends a pretty clear message.

3 - I think it's just as reasonable to assume fraud was equally involved for both parties. I've seen no evidence that suggests otherwise. Have you?
 
NorCalDad said:
1 - But they aren't just complaining that there was election fraud. They are complaining because they think there is enough election fraud to change the results. Their complaint is absolutely intertwined. Otherwise, why storm the capitol? I mean "Stop the Steal" sends a pretty clear message.
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Like I've been saying all day, it's difficult for people to hold complex subjects and to recognize various things might be true at the same time. It's easier to settle on a slogan, whether "Systemic Racism!" "Stop the Steal!" "Defund the Police!" or "Make America Great Again!" It's easy for a politician to manipulate things to their own end with these slogans.

Elections should be fair and free. I tell my kids all the time that life ain't fair. At the same time, if people begin to think the elections aren't "fair" eventually they throw up their hands and say why have elections. When that happens all that's left is violence, and what happened at the Capitol was some on the right coming to that point. I've been saying this would happen....buckle up it's only getting started.
 
Grace T. said:
Like I've been saying all day, it's difficult for people to hold complex subjects and to recognize various things might be true at the same time. It's easier to settle on a slogan, whether "Systemic Racism!" "Stop the Steal!" "Defund the Police!" or "Make America Great Again!" It's easy for a politician to manipulate things to their own end with these slogans.

Elections should be fair and free. I tell my kids all the time that life ain't fair. At the same time, if people begin to think the elections aren't "fair" eventually they throw up their hands and say why have elections. When that happens all that's left is violence, and what happened at the Capitol was some on the right coming to that point. I've been saying this would happen....buckle up it's only getting started.
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So Karen-Grace spends the entire morning falsely claiming the election was rife with fraud, then turns around and laments that:

“if people begin to think the elections aren't "fair" eventually they throw up their hands and say why have elections. When that happens all that's left is violence, and what happened at the Capitol was some on the right coming to that point.”
 
Grace T. said:
Like I've been saying all day, it's difficult for people to hold complex subjects and to recognize various things might be true at the same time. It's easier to settle on a slogan, whether "Systemic Racism!" "Stop the Steal!" "Defund the Police!" or "Make America Great Again!" It's easy for a politician to manipulate things to their own end with these slogans.

Elections should be fair and free. I tell my kids all the time that life ain't fair. At the same time, if people begin to think the elections aren't "fair" eventually they throw up their hands and say why have elections. When that happens all that's left is violence, and what happened at the Capitol was some on the right coming to that point. I've been saying this would happen....buckle up it's only getting started.
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Bear with me here, I really want to understand the root of what you're trying to communicate. Do you think the Trump supporters on Wednesday were protesting election fraud knowing there wasn't enough of it to change the results, or do you think they thought there was real chance that the election results could be overturned?

If it's the later, why do you think they felt that way?
 
NorCalDad said:
Bear with me here, I really want to understand the root of what you're trying to communicate. Do you think the Trump supporters on Wednesday were protesting election fraud knowing there wasn't enough of it to change the results, or do you think they thought there was real chance that the election results could be overturned?

If it's the later, why do you think they felt that way?
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Well, I don't believe they thought there was a real chance that the election results could be overturned (at least not those that took the Capitol). If so, why disrupt the proceedings? Everyone also knew the objectors were going to lose. What happened was more of them overturning the chess board after losing a game, after claiming there were several rules violations along the way (though objectively there were no such rules violations, even if the game was not entirely "fair"...the Russians put the chess player in a hotel with loud noise, monitored phone calls to Benny, colluded among their team mates, had judges call a recess at favorable moments).
 
Bloomberg is reporting the Ds on Monday are going to file impeachment charges that include inciting insurrection.

1. There's no basis for that charge. Trump never ordered them to storm the Capitol
2. They're probably not serious about it. If they were they'd file it tonight and keep in session through the weekend.
3. Tactically it's a mistake. He has a right to counsel and there's no way to put a trial in the Senate that quickly to remove him before inauguration. Leads me to believe its a political stunt. They could try to do it post hoc to bar him from future elections, but then that's Biden's first 100 days.
4. He's cowed right now with no friends and allies. This will just inflame things again with his supporters, force some of the Rs to rally around him, and create more violence and restore his political chances with his supporters. It's a mistake.
 
Grace T. said:
Well, I don't believe they thought there was a real chance that the election results could be overturned (at least not those that took the Capitol). If so, why disrupt the proceedings? Everyone also knew the objectors were going to lose. What happened was more of them overturning the chess board after losing a game, after claiming there were several rules violations along the way (though objectively there were no such rules violations, even if the game was not entirely "fair"...the Russians put the chess player in a hotel with loud noise, monitored phone calls to Benny, colluded among their team mates, had judges call a recess at favorable moments).
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To me it was more of a dry run on how far the Trumpies could push things. Rip on Mitch all you want... unlike democrats with this summers protests, he put down his foot and now you're wondering why Trump even tried. And Mitch did it knowing he as about to give up control of the Senate to Chuck Schumer.

As much as I lothe the man, I can't deny in this case Mitch showed up big at that moment he needs to.
 
Grace T. said:
Bloomberg is reporting the Ds on Monday are going to file impeachment charges that include inciting insurrection.

1. There's no basis for that charge. Trump never ordered them to storm the Capitol
2. They're probably not serious about it. If they were they'd file it tonight and keep in session through the weekend.
3. Tactically it's a mistake. He has a right to counsel and there's no way to put a trial in the Senate that quickly to remove him before inauguration. Leads me to believe its a political stunt. They could try to do it post hoc to bar him from future elections, but then that's Biden's first 100 days.
4. He's cowed right now with no friends and allies. This will just inflame things again with his supporters, force some of the Rs to rally around him, and create more violence and restore his political chances with his supporters. It's a mistake.
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I don't think they should impeach either - leave him in isolation for a couple of weeks.

I do think it's relatively simple to make a basis for a charge between the GA phone call and speech on Wednesday. There's no point though if they can't get a reasonable number of R's on board.

From a D perspective, they should be hoping T stays around and involved with the R's. He is now a gift that can keep on giving.
 
Grace T. said:
Well, I don't believe they thought there was a real chance that the election results could be overturned (at least not those that took the Capitol). If so, why disrupt the proceedings? Everyone also knew the objectors were going to lose. What happened was more of them overturning the chess board after losing a game, after claiming there were several rules violations along the way (though objectively there were no such rules violations, even if the game was not entirely "fair"...the Russians put the chess player in a hotel with loud noise, monitored phone calls to Benny, colluded among their team mates, had judges call a recess at favorable moments).
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There were a lot of Qanon folks there. A lot of these folks buy into conspiracy theories. Trump's own tweets were suggesting Pence could decide at the certification process which states electoral votes to accept. It's incredibly bizarre when you think about it. Yeah, I definitely think those folks thought the election was stolen due to mass fraud and that it was going to be overturned. I mean this is what Trump has been telling them the whole time while he continued his grift (fundraising).

Anyway, I don't have empathy for these people for what they did Wednesday. It's on them for buying what Trump and his yahoos were selling.
 
Grace T. said:
Bloomberg is reporting the Ds on Monday are going to file impeachment charges that include inciting insurrection.

1. There's no basis for that charge. Trump never ordered them to storm the Capitol
2. They're probably not serious about it. If they were they'd file it tonight and keep in session through the weekend.
3. Tactically it's a mistake. He has a right to counsel and there's no way to put a trial in the Senate that quickly to remove him before inauguration. Leads me to believe its a political stunt. They could try to do it post hoc to bar him from future elections, but then that's Biden's first 100 days.
4. He's cowed right now with no friends and allies. This will just inflame things again with his supporters, force some of the Rs to rally around him, and create more violence and restore his political chances with his supporters. It's a mistake.
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You could be right. I mean Trump won't do this, but he should just resign.
 
whatithink said:
I don't think they should impeach either - leave him in isolation for a couple of weeks.

I do think it's relatively simple to make a basis for a charge between the GA phone call and speech on Wednesday. There's no point though if they can't get a reasonable number of R's on board.

From a D perspective, they should be hoping T stays around and involved with the R's. He is now a gift that can keep on giving.
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If Trump is a symptom, then he and his his should be used as example of what we do to kings around here.

And yes, if R's aren't convinced to go along then it becomes about containment. However I don't imagine the R's are any less aware of what a disruptive presence Trump can be for them, and this could be the chance (you know they are waiting for) to free themselves from him.
 
tenacious said:
To me it was more of a dry run on how far the Trumpies could push things. Rip on Mitch all you want... unlike democrats with this summers protests, he put down his foot and now you're wondering why Trump even tried. And Mitch did it knowing he as about to give up control of the Senate to Chuck Schumer.

As much as I lothe the man, I can't deny in this case Mitch showed up big at that moment he needs to.
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I have the same sentiment. I can't stand Mitch. He's an awful person generally speaking. But, he has handled this situation really well, as have many other republicans. Mitch has handled this with consistency and hasn't wavered under pressure.
 
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