President Joe Biden

[Grace T.]

1 - But they aren't just complaining that there was election fraud. They are complaining because they think there is enough election fraud to change the results. Their complaint is absolutely intertwined. Otherwise, why storm the capitol? I mean "Stop the Steal" sends a pretty clear message.

Like I've been saying all day, it's difficult for people to hold complex subjects and to recognize various things might be true at the same time. It's easier to settle on a slogan, whether "Systemic Racism!" "Stop the Steal!" "Defund the Police!" or "Make America Great Again!" It's easy for a politician to manipulate things to their own end with these slogans.

Elections should be fair and free. I tell my kids all the time that life ain't fair. At the same time, if people begin to think the elections aren't "fair" eventually they throw up their hands and say why have elections. When that happens all that's left is violence, and what happened at the Capitol was some on the right coming to that point. I've been saying this would happen....buckle up it's only getting started.

 

[EOTL]

Like I've been saying all day, it's difficult for people to hold complex subjects and to recognize various things might be true at the same time. It's easier to settle on a slogan, whether "Systemic Racism!" "Stop the Steal!" "Defund the Police!" or "Make America Great Again!" It's easy for a politician to manipulate things to their own end with these slogans.

Elections should be fair and free. I tell my kids all the time that life ain't fair. At the same time, if people begin to think the elections aren't "fair" eventually they throw up their hands and say why have elections. When that happens all that's left is violence, and what happened at the Capitol was some on the right coming to that point. I've been saying this would happen....buckle up it's only getting started.

So Karen-Grace spends the entire morning falsely claiming the election was rife with fraud, then turns around and laments that:

“if people begin to think the elections aren't "fair" eventually they throw up their hands and say why have elections. When that happens all that's left is violence, and what happened at the Capitol was some on the right coming to that point.”

 

[NorCalDad]

Like I've been saying all day, it's difficult for people to hold complex subjects and to recognize various things might be true at the same time. It's easier to settle on a slogan, whether "Systemic Racism!" "Stop the Steal!" "Defund the Police!" or "Make America Great Again!" It's easy for a politician to manipulate things to their own end with these slogans.

Elections should be fair and free. I tell my kids all the time that life ain't fair. At the same time, if people begin to think the elections aren't "fair" eventually they throw up their hands and say why have elections. When that happens all that's left is violence, and what happened at the Capitol was some on the right coming to that point. I've been saying this would happen....buckle up it's only getting started.

Bear with me here, I really want to understand the root of what you're trying to communicate. Do you think the Trump supporters on Wednesday were protesting election fraud knowing there wasn't enough of it to change the results, or do you think they thought there was real chance that the election results could be overturned?

If it's the later, why do you think they felt that way?

 

[Grace T.]

Bear with me here, I really want to understand the root of what you're trying to communicate. Do you think the Trump supporters on Wednesday were protesting election fraud knowing there wasn't enough of it to change the results, or do you think they thought there was real chance that the election results could be overturned?

If it's the later, why do you think they felt that way?

Well, I don't believe they thought there was a real chance that the election results could be overturned (at least not those that took the Capitol). If so, why disrupt the proceedings? Everyone also knew the objectors were going to lose. What happened was more of them overturning the chess board after losing a game, after claiming there were several rules violations along the way (though objectively there were no such rules violations, even if the game was not entirely "fair"...the Russians put the chess player in a hotel with loud noise, monitored phone calls to Benny, colluded among their team mates, had judges call a recess at favorable moments).

 

[Grace T.]

Bloomberg is reporting the Ds on Monday are going to file impeachment charges that include inciting insurrection.

1. There's no basis for that charge. Trump never ordered them to storm the Capitol
2. They're probably not serious about it. If they were they'd file it tonight and keep in session through the weekend.
3. Tactically it's a mistake. He has a right to counsel and there's no way to put a trial in the Senate that quickly to remove him before inauguration. Leads me to believe its a political stunt. They could try to do it post hoc to bar him from future elections, but then that's Biden's first 100 days.
4. He's cowed right now with no friends and allies. This will just inflame things again with his supporters, force some of the Rs to rally around him, and create more violence and restore his political chances with his supporters. It's a mistake.

 

[tenacious]

Well, I don't believe they thought there was a real chance that the election results could be overturned (at least not those that took the Capitol). If so, why disrupt the proceedings? Everyone also knew the objectors were going to lose. What happened was more of them overturning the chess board after losing a game, after claiming there were several rules violations along the way (though objectively there were no such rules violations, even if the game was not entirely "fair"...the Russians put the chess player in a hotel with loud noise, monitored phone calls to Benny, colluded among their team mates, had judges call a recess at favorable moments).

To me it was more of a dry run on how far the Trumpies could push things. Rip on Mitch all you want... unlike democrats with this summers protests, he put down his foot and now you're wondering why Trump even tried. And Mitch did it knowing he as about to give up control of the Senate to Chuck Schumer.

As much as I lothe the man, I can't deny in this case Mitch showed up big at that moment he needs to.

 

[whatithink]

Bloomberg is reporting the Ds on Monday are going to file impeachment charges that include inciting insurrection.

1. There's no basis for that charge. Trump never ordered them to storm the Capitol
2. They're probably not serious about it. If they were they'd file it tonight and keep in session through the weekend.
3. Tactically it's a mistake. He has a right to counsel and there's no way to put a trial in the Senate that quickly to remove him before inauguration. Leads me to believe its a political stunt. They could try to do it post hoc to bar him from future elections, but then that's Biden's first 100 days.
4. He's cowed right now with no friends and allies. This will just inflame things again with his supporters, force some of the Rs to rally around him, and create more violence and restore his political chances with his supporters. It's a mistake.

I don't think they should impeach either - leave him in isolation for a couple of weeks.

I do think it's relatively simple to make a basis for a charge between the GA phone call and speech on Wednesday. There's no point though if they can't get a reasonable number of R's on board.

From a D perspective, they should be hoping T stays around and involved with the R's. He is now a gift that can keep on giving.

 

[NorCalDad]

Well, I don't believe they thought there was a real chance that the election results could be overturned (at least not those that took the Capitol). If so, why disrupt the proceedings? Everyone also knew the objectors were going to lose. What happened was more of them overturning the chess board after losing a game, after claiming there were several rules violations along the way (though objectively there were no such rules violations, even if the game was not entirely "fair"...the Russians put the chess player in a hotel with loud noise, monitored phone calls to Benny, colluded among their team mates, had judges call a recess at favorable moments).

There were a lot of Qanon folks there. A lot of these folks buy into conspiracy theories. Trump's own tweets were suggesting Pence could decide at the certification process which states electoral votes to accept. It's incredibly bizarre when you think about it. Yeah, I definitely think those folks thought the election was stolen due to mass fraud and that it was going to be overturned. I mean this is what Trump has been telling them the whole time while he continued his grift (fundraising).

Anyway, I don't have empathy for these people for what they did Wednesday. It's on them for buying what Trump and his yahoos were selling.

 

[espola]

Please show me where Trump said specifically to his people they should storm and occupy the Capitol.

If anything, under your theory, some Capitol police have more of a problem....

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1347596278583197698

So you are still in denial?

 

[NorCalDad]

Bloomberg is reporting the Ds on Monday are going to file impeachment charges that include inciting insurrection.

1. There's no basis for that charge. Trump never ordered them to storm the Capitol
2. They're probably not serious about it. If they were they'd file it tonight and keep in session through the weekend.
3. Tactically it's a mistake. He has a right to counsel and there's no way to put a trial in the Senate that quickly to remove him before inauguration. Leads me to believe its a political stunt. They could try to do it post hoc to bar him from future elections, but then that's Biden's first 100 days.
4. He's cowed right now with no friends and allies. This will just inflame things again with his supporters, force some of the Rs to rally around him, and create more violence and restore his political chances with his supporters. It's a mistake.

You could be right. I mean Trump won't do this, but he should just resign.

 

[tenacious]

I don't think they should impeach either - leave him in isolation for a couple of weeks.

I do think it's relatively simple to make a basis for a charge between the GA phone call and speech on Wednesday. There's no point though if they can't get a reasonable number of R's on board.

From a D perspective, they should be hoping T stays around and involved with the R's. He is now a gift that can keep on giving.

If Trump is a symptom, then he and his his should be used as example of what we do to kings around here.

And yes, if R's aren't convinced to go along then it becomes about containment. However I don't imagine the R's are any less aware of what a disruptive presence Trump can be for them, and this could be the chance (you know they are waiting for) to free themselves from him.

 

[NorCalDad]

To me it was more of a dry run on how far the Trumpies could push things. Rip on Mitch all you want... unlike democrats with this summers protests, he put down his foot and now you're wondering why Trump even tried. And Mitch did it knowing he as about to give up control of the Senate to Chuck Schumer.

As much as I lothe the man, I can't deny in this case Mitch showed up big at that moment he needs to.

I have the same sentiment. I can't stand Mitch. He's an awful person generally speaking. But, he has handled this situation really well, as have many other republicans. Mitch has handled this with consistency and hasn't wavered under pressure.

 

[blam]

Some trump supporters actually believe that Joe Biden will bring a one world government etc. etc..

Talk about delusion.

They also seem to have a problem with China. Trade with China have been beneficial to many American companies and enriched many American capitalists...of course American workers pay. We have wall street politicians, where do you think they will build the next factory? They will build it where they can get the best profit. The only answer is socialism/union which protects the Americans workers.

Union members can refuse to train overseas workers.

However, Trump supporters are also anti-union and anti-socialism..hard to please.

 

[whatithink]

If Trump is a symptom, then he and his his should be used as example of what we do to kings around here.

And yes, if R's aren't convinced to go along then it becomes about containment. However I don't imagine the R's are any less aware of what a disruptive presence Trump can be for them, and this could be the chance (you know they are waiting for) to free themselves from him.

I think the R's see impeachment as a double edged sword. I doubt they want to be on the record voting for or against. They need a large number of (ideally all) T's base. Support impeaching T in enough numbers for it to pass and they lose a lot of those. Reject impeaching T and they run the risk of losing moderate R's, which has clearly happened in places like AZ & GA.

Their ideal, IMO, is condemn and let him slide away in 2 weeks. I expect they are hoping that one of the many legal challenges he faces will bring him down subsequently (& quickly - before the next election cycle). He can't pardon himself against state led charges and if he decides to issue a blanket federal pardon, then he needs to get specific (as I understand it), which would be interesting in and of itself and probably dissuade him from doing it.

 

[Grace T.]

Some trump supporters actually believe that Joe Biden will bring a one world government etc. etc..

Talk about delusion.

They also seem to have a problem with China. Trade with China have been beneficial to many American companies and enriched many American capitalists...of course American workers pay. We have wall street politicians, where do you think they will build the next factory? They will build it where they can get the best profit. The only answer is socialism/union which protects the Americans workers.

Union members can refuse to train overseas workers.

However, Trump supporters are also anti-union and anti-socialism..hard to please.

Well, Facebook and Twitter have been conducting a purge of rightist and anti-lockdowners since this happened. And Apple and Google today are allegedly threatening to remove Parler from their app stores unless they agree to a speech code. So while delusional, it's not as if they are completely divorced from reality.

Meanwhile, Twitter seems o.k. with Chinese propaganda including stuff about the Uigurhs [sic]

 

[Grace T.]

So you are still in denial?

About what mi amigo?

 

[NorCalDad]

I think the R's see impeachment as a double edged sword. I doubt they want to be on the record voting for or against. They need a large number of (ideally all) T's base. Support impeaching T in enough numbers for it to pass and they lose a lot of those. Reject impeaching T and they run the risk of losing moderate R's, which has clearly happened in places like AZ & GA.

Their ideal, IMO, is condemn and let him slide away in 2 weeks. I expect they are hoping that one of the many legal challenges he faces will bring him down subsequently (& quickly - before the next election cycle). He can't pardon himself against state led charges and if he decides to issue a blanket federal pardon, then he needs to get specific (as I understand it), which would be interesting in and of itself and probably dissuade him from doing it.

I think similarly the dem base wants to see movement on impeachment. I don't think the dems are serious about it. I think it's mostly posturing right now. I mean they really don't even have the time to deal with it.

It wouldn't surprise me if Trump is calling Biden and asking for a pardon if he resigns.

 

[NorCalDad]

Well, Facebook and Twitter have been conducting a purge of rightist and anti-lockdowners since this happened. And Apple and Google today are allegedly threatening to remove Parler from their app stores unless they agree to a speech code. So while delusional, it's not as if they are completely divorced from reality.

Meanwhile, Twitter seems o.k. with Chinese propaganda including stuff about the Uigurhs [sic]

Where are you seeing the purge of anti-lockdowners and rightist? They've been hammering on conspiracy theories, but there's plenty of right wing folks on Twitter.

 

[tenacious]

I think the R's see impeachment as a double edged sword. I doubt they want to be on the record voting for or against. They need a large number of (ideally all) T's base. Support impeaching T in enough numbers for it to pass and they lose a lot of those. Reject impeaching T and they run the risk of losing moderate R's, which has clearly happened in places like AZ & GA.

Their ideal, IMO, is condemn and let him slide away in 2 weeks. I expect they are hoping that one of the many legal challenges he faces will bring him down subsequently (& quickly - before the next election cycle). He can't pardon himself against state led charges and if he decides to issue a blanket federal pardon, then he needs to get specific (as I understand it), which would be interesting in and of itself and probably dissuade him from doing it.

Well... per this last election having all of Trumps base didn't lead to Trump getting re-elected. And after the sacking of Washington I'd assume he'd do even worse if the vote were held today. Especially among those suburban women who fled the party this past election. To impeach I'd assume 20 or so Republicans would have to join democrats... and I'd also guess there are at least 20 republican senators who rely on suburban votes. So my spidey sense the cause is not yet lost.

Although I will grant you, Nancy Pelosi proved to be about the only person on earth unable to manipulate Trump. So it would be foolish for me to underestimate her seemingly total inability to reach across the aisle and pluck low lying fruit is this case either.

 

[whatithink]

I think similarly the dem base wants to see movement on impeachment. I don't think the dems are serious about it. I think it's mostly posturing right now. I mean they really don't even have the time to deal with it.

It wouldn't surprise me if Trump is calling Biden and asking for a pardon if he resigns.

Yeah on D's.

More likely T is calling Pence and asking him, that's been thrown out there previously. Unfortunately, he just threw Pence under the bus, so If I'm Pence, I'd say - ABSOLUTELY, and then fuck him over once I'm sworn in ... and deny the conversation ever happened, and bury the recording on National Security grounds (cos he'd now be the Pres).

it would be sweet ... please make it happen.