GunScare @ Albion Cup?

[Surfref]

I have been out of the country for the last two weeks and just heard about the Albion Showcase incident today when one of my referee associations sent out the Cal South statement. I have known Ziggy, Albion South Coach, for years years and have NEVER had a problem with him yelling at my referee crews. I have had his spectators yell at me and Ziggy has always addressed the spectator quickly before I had to get involved. I refereed his teams, including the team involved in the incident, this past year and had no sideline or player problems. I worked a lot of Albion games this Fall season and had no coach or sideline problems.

 

[Nefutous]

Ban all spectators for both those teams for a year. That should send a message. The opposing teams will see the Albion South or Azteca teams show up for games with just the coach, manager and players.

IMHO, sanctions/penalties against poorly behaving parents is too weak. They should be suspended for months and not just a game. Coaches ejected should be suspended for 3 games minimum the first time, 6 games and a fine for the second ejection, 3 months and a fine for third ejection, and a a one year ban, fine, anger management class, referee grade 8 course and coaching course completed before they can reapply for their coaches license. Cal South would need to track these ejection. I am not sure that Cal South has the courage to implement any significant coach or parent penalties for bad behavior.

I agree that punishment needs to be swifter and harsher, but don’t agree that this case should be made an example of. Just dell out the punishment they would normally give and then put everyone in Calsouth know the new rules going forward. I also don’t agree with the punishment of the whole team. There are actually parents that do try to stop bad behavior but don’t have the support of the coach or other parents. My family left a team because of bad parent behavior toward the ref and players on our own team.

No one should say anything negative to a ref. And if the ref gives a warning they need to just shut up and don’t argue that they did not say anything. When someone gets kicked out of a game, they should leave immediately. I don’t understand what people think they are going to accomplish by staying there when the game is stopped. And I don’t understand why the manager or coach would not tell a parent to leave. Also, why do they always think that by going down by the corner flag, they become invisible? When the ball goes down there, the ref will see them and stop the game again.

When a parent tells another parent to be quiet and sit down, they should not turn on them. And parents should not be criticizing any kids, especially from their own team. Yes, parents and players have ears and video also captures it very well.

Most disgusting to me is when a parent cheers that her kid took out a player and that player is still on the ground hurt.

In these cases punish the parent and the do nothing coach and manager, not the innocent parents that keep their mouth shut.

 

[espola]

I agree that punishment needs to be swifter and harsher, but don’t agree that this case should be made an example of. Just dell out the punishment they would normally give and then put everyone in Calsouth know the new rules going forward. I also don’t agree with the punishment of the whole team. There are actually parents that do try to stop bad behavior but don’t have the support of the coach or other parents. My family left a team because of bad parent behavior toward the ref and players on our own team.

No one should say anything negative to a ref. And if the ref gives a warning they need to just shut up and don’t argue that they did not say anything. When someone gets kicked out of a game, they should leave immediately. I don’t understand what people think they are going to accomplish by staying there when the game is stopped. And I don’t understand why the manager or coach would not tell a parent to leave. Also, why do they always think that by going down by the corner flag, they become invisible? When the ball goes down there, the ref will see them and stop the game again.

When a parent tells another parent to be quiet and sit down, they should not turn on them. And parents should not be criticizing any kids, especially from their own team. Yes, parents and players have ears and video also captures it very well.

Most disgusting to me is when a parent cheers that her kid took out a player and that player is still on the ground hurt.

In these cases punish the parent and the do nothing coach and manager, not the innocent parents that keep their mouth shut.

Several of our teams used the lollipop method - if a parent seemed to be getting loud or offensive, the team manager would hand him a lollipop.

 

[espola]

I have been out of the country for the last two weeks and just heard about the Albion Showcase incident today when one of my referee associations sent out the Cal South statement. I have known Ziggy, Albion South Coach, for years years and have NEVER had a problem with him yelling at my referee crews. I have had his spectators yell at me and Ziggy has always addressed the spectator quickly before I had to get involved. I refereed his teams, including the team involved in the incident, this past year and had no sideline or player problems. I worked a lot of Albion games this Fall season and had no coach or sideline problems.

Some people are proposing that he, his team, his club, and uninvolved spectators be punished. Do you agree with that?

 

[Surfref]

Some people are proposing that he, his team, his club, and uninvolved spectators be punished. Do you agree with that?

Initially I would have agreed, but since watching the You Tube videos, TV news reports and information read on this forum, I do think that any spectators that came on the field should face a long suspension from attending any Cal South sanctioned games. If either club does not fully cooperate in the investigation, then harsh punishments should be handed out. Had the adult spectators not come on the field, the incident probably would not have escalated to the point that sent hundreds of people running for cover. Spectators should NEVER enter the field of play without the referees permission. Let Cal South investigate. We can all hope that Cal South will conduct a very thorough investigation and hand out harsh punishments and make policy changes that help stop the spectator bad behavior. Since we are in “lawsuit crazy” California, I would bet someone is going to file a lawsuit for emotional problems caused to them or their children.

 

[SDMama]

Spectators should be on the same sideline as the coach and players and in the half away from the assistant referee. Presidio used these rules this fall and I saw a drastic decrease in parent problems.

We played a tournament out of state last summer, and they had teams on opposite sides of the field. When we, spectators, went to setup on either side of our team’s bench, the AR told those who set up to the right of the team bench to move to the opposite/left side of the team bench, away from where he would be running with a comment something like, “I thought you guys were from California. I thought you’d know better.” Hahaha. Of course that set up makes total sense, but we just didn’t know because we don’t have the same rules here.

 

[oh canada]

Heard from a couple friends that Galway parent/coach conduct continued to be embarrassing this weekend at State Cup--red cards for coaches, parents being ejected, sidelines yelling at kids, etc. etc. Anyone care to attest who was there?

 

[way up]

Heard from a couple friends that Galway parent/coach conduct continued to be embarrassing this weekend at State Cup--red cards for coaches, parents being ejected, sidelines yelling at kids, etc. etc. Anyone care to attest who was there?

I was at San Bernadino Soccer Complex and everyone was pretty well behaved. Separating the home and away team with sides of the field worked very well too imo. There was one really loud, non-stop joysticking coach in our bracket, but with separate sidelines, it wasn't a big deal. Saw some great soccer and it was very civil. SCDSL has pretty strict rules for bad sideline behavior, so I have not seen anything like you're describing above.

 

[Nefutous]

Calsouth’s press release say that they will require cooperation in the investigation by the clubs. +5 years ago, clubs were not required to cooperate and Calsouth could not hold them accountable, which I always thought was weird. Were the rules changed previously or did they just change them for this issue?

Also the PAD use to be made up of volunteers that met on Sundays. Is that still the case? If so, I highly doubt that they will be able to resolve this issue before the clubs in question are scheduled to play in State Cup. PAD becomes really busy during this time of year. Too bad innocent families are caught up in this mess.

 

[socalkdg]

Cal South Statement Regarding Albion Tournament in Temecula, Calif. - Cal South

Cal South is dedicated to providing a safe and enjoyable athletic experience. Adherence to Cal South’s standards for appropriate conduct, respect, and safety are mandatory. This applies to players, coaches, administrators, referees and spectators. Violations …

calsouth.com

 

[MWN]

Two points:

Point 1: To blame Cal South is stupid. I don't know if its been said before, but this was simply a Cal South "Sanctioned" Tournament that was played at a 3rd party Venue (Galway Downs) and hosted and promoted by a 3rd party club (Albion). Its a little unfair to blame Cal South for any of what happened at Albion/Galway because it was not sponsored or conducted by Cal South. The referee crew had everything under control until the 3rd party juvenile delinquent entered the field and then the Albion and Azteca parents.

Point 2: There are 3 primary groups to blame:

1) The parents of the dumbass kids that ran onto the field for being so inept at parenting that this kid thought running onto the field was an appropriate response. These parents and their kid should be banned for life, they don't belong in soccer.

2) All the parents that ran onto the field, a fight between two kids is the sole responsibility of the coaches, the players and the referee crew to manage. There is never a justified excuse for a parent to be on the field unless they have some sort of medical training AND were invited. Every parent that was on the field should be suspended for 1 season. Their kids can play, but those parents need to be punished.

3) The Azteca coach for allowing a culture to exist on his team where parents of dumbass kids could find a home.

Neither the venue, the tournament, nor Cal South have any responsibility for the actions of grown ass adults and their dumbass children. Zero. A code of conduct exists.

 

[jpeter]

I have been out of the country for the last two weeks and just heard about the Albion Showcase incident today when one of my referee associations sent out the Cal South statement. I have known Ziggy, Albion South Coach, for years years and have NEVER had a problem with him yelling at my referee crews. I have had his spectators yell at me and Ziggy has always addressed the spectator quickly before I had to get involved. I refereed his teams, including the team involved in the incident, this past year and had no sideline or player problems. I worked a lot of Albion games this Fall season and had no coach or sideline problems.

Well mixed experiences when he's been coaching in the da in the past, he had some issues and don't think he's doing DA any longer.

 

[espola]

Two points:

Point 1: To blame Cal South is stupid. I don't know if its been said before, but this was simply a Cal South "Sanctioned" Tournament that was played at a 3rd party Venue (Galway Downs) and hosted and promoted by a 3rd party club (Albion). Its a little unfair to blame Cal South for any of what happened at Albion/Galway because it was not sponsored or conducted by Cal South. The referee crew had everything under control until the 3rd party juvenile delinquent entered the field and then the Albion and Azteca parents.

Point 2: There are 3 primary groups to blame:

1) The parents of the dumbass kids that ran onto the field for being so inept at parenting that this kid thought running onto the field was an appropriate response. These parents and their kid should be banned for life, they don't belong in soccer.

2) All the parents that ran onto the field, a fight between two kids is the sole responsibility of the coaches, the players and the referee crew to manage. There is never a justified excuse for a parent to be on the field unless they have some sort of medical training AND were invited. Every parent that was on the field should be suspended for 1 season. Their kids can play, but those parents need to be punished.

3) The Azteca coach for allowing a culture to exist on his team where parents of dumbass kids could find a home.

Neither the venue, the tournament, nor Cal South have any responsibility for the actions of grown ass adults and their dumbass children. Zero. A code of conduct exists.

I disagree with #2 to some extent. If I saw an intruder sucker-punching my kid in the head, I wouldn't be able to hold myself back. Period.

I have responded to the "unless they have some sort of medical training AND were invited" passage in the past (long lost in the fog of Forum crashes). In addition to the parental instincts above, I would enter a field during a game to treat or protect a player suffering from severe bleeding, a convulsive seizure, or an obvious broken limb. The referee can throw me out without complaint on my part ass long as he notes the situation completely in his game report.

 

[jpeter]

Two points:

Point 1: To blame Cal South is stupid. I don't know if its been said before, but this was simply a Cal South "Sanctioned" Tournament that was played at a 3rd party Venue (Galway Downs) and hosted and promoted by a 3rd party club (Albion). Its a little unfair to blame Cal South for any of what happened at Albion/Galway because it was not sponsored or conducted by Cal South. The referee crew had everything under control until the 3rd party juvenile delinquent entered the field and then the Albion and Azteca parents.

Point 2: There are 3 primary groups to blame:

1) The parents of the dumbass kids that ran onto the field for being so inept at parenting that this kid thought running onto the field was an appropriate response. These parents and their kid should be banned for life, they don't belong in soccer.

2) All the parents that ran onto the field, a fight between two kids is the sole responsibility of the coaches, the players and the referee crew to manage. There is never a justified excuse for a parent to be on the field unless they have some sort of medical training AND were invited. Every parent that was on the field should be suspended for 1 season. Their kids can play, but those parents need to be punished.

3) The Azteca coach for allowing a culture to exist on his team where parents of dumbass kids could find a home.

Neither the venue, the tournament, nor Cal South have any responsibility for the actions of grown ass adults and their dumbass children. Zero. A code of conduct exists.

CAL south is part of the problem, a big part you can't just say they only scantioned the event and don't have any responsibility.

 

[watfly]

CAL south is part of the problem, a big part you can't just say they only scantioned the event and don't have any responsibility.

Yep, as I mentioned before some of the posters are confusing blame with responsibilities. Calsouth is not to blame for this specific incident; however, as the sanctioning entity it has a huge responsibility to respond to the situation (including appropriate punishment) and do its best to implement measures that might prevent this from happening in the future. Albion as the tournament host has a similar responsibility to do so and even greater responsibility since members of their club apparently acted irresponsibly and may (or may not have) provoked the incident. Instead they've chosen to point fingers at a young teen and claim the incident was harmless despite hundreds of children and parents running for their lives with some crying and screaming. Do you really trust a youth organization that calls this incident harmless? Of course none of this excuses the behavior of the Azteca individuals, or the Azteca club to respond as well. Those of you that are in the weeds of legalities or specific individual innocence or guilt are missing the point entirely.

I serve on the board of a not-for-profit youth services organization. If our CEO responded with the same callous and dismissive responses as NG and ZK to an incident where kids feared for their lives (whether it was our fault or not), that CEO would be looking for a new job.

 

[MWN]

CAL south is part of the problem, a big part you can't just say they only sanctioned the event and don't have any responsibility.

At @espola, stay the "f*$%" off the field. Let the coaches and refs handle it. Once you set foot then another parent will and the ref's lose their ability to control anything. By the time some kid cold-cocks yours, there is nothing you can do. Stay off. PERIOD!!!!

@jpeter, Disagree. Sanctioning an event means that the promoters of the event have assured Cal South that they are (1) members (and in good standing); (2) have adopted and will enforce the US Youth Soccer/Cal South code of conduct and other US Youth Soccer/Cal South rules and regulations; and (3) will employ a referee association approved by Cal South. The tournament pays a whopping $100 (one hundred dollars) and delivers:

1. Cal South Application for Tournament Sanctioning
2. Receipt & Affidavit of Compliance
3. US Youth Soccer Application to Host a Tournament or Games
4. US Youth Soccer Tournament Hosting Agreement
5. Sanctioned Tournament Referee Association Certification
6. $100 Application Fee (club check payable to Cal South or credit card authorization form)

Sanctioning is simply a formality whereby tournaments agree to abide by the rules of US Youth Soccer and its State Association ... Cal South.

There is no review beyond are they in good standing and has the tournament promised to abide by our rules? The $100 is a fair document review fee for the cost of the employee that will take a few hours to review and put the tournament on the website.

The argument that Cal South has any culpability or in your words "...is a big part of the problem" is akin to saying the State of California, DMV, should be held liable for the acts of drivers that break the law. Bullshit. Adults are 100% responsible for their behavior ... 100%.

@watfly, Agree, but that is not what 90% of the posters here believe. They believe that Cal South is some omnipotent entity that can stop this kind of crap from happening with a magical hand of God. What happens next and how Cal South will engage in the review and punishment process under its PAD process is on Cal South's shoulders and so far, it seems that the preliminary suspensions are valid and the process is moving forward under the rules of Cal South and US Youth Soccer.

 

[espola]

At @espola, stay the "f*$%" off the field. Let the coaches and refs handle it. Once you set foot then another parent will and the ref's lose their ability to control anything. By the time some kid cold-cocks yours, there is nothing you can do. Stay off. PERIOD!!!!

I reject that nonsense.

 

[MWN]

I reject that nonsense.

As a referee (I don't think you have, but correct me if I'm wrong), our worst fear is parents and spectators entering the field during a melee or fight. We (referees and coaches) can handle the players and the occasional juvenile delinquent. Once adults enter the playing field its a cascade effect that creates chaos. I reject your rejection as ill advised as its both against the rules and illogical.

 

[espola]

As a referee (I don't think you have, but correct me if I'm wrong), our worst fear is parents and spectators entering the field during a melee or fight. We (referees and coaches) can handle the players and the occasional juvenile delinquent. Once adults enter the playing field its a cascade effect that creates chaos. I reject your rejection as ill advised as its both against the rules and illogical.

I told you my feelings. Luckily, I have never had to act on them. I wonder how many parents would sit and watch their child be beaten by a larger child.

 

[watfly]

@watfly, Agree, but that is not what 90% of the posters here believe. They believe that Cal South is some omnipotent entity that can stop this kind of crap from happening with a magical hand of God. What happens next and how Cal South will engage in the review and punishment process under its PAD process is on Cal South's shoulders and so far, it seems that the preliminary suspensions are valid and the process is moving forward under the rules of Cal South and US Youth Soccer.

May be they think that way but IDK. I get the sense that many of the posters feel like Calsouth hasn't addressed serious bad behavior from clubs, coaches, parents, refs and players in the past which has created an environment where bad behavior is tolerated. I was very skeptical how Calsouth was going to respond in this situation. Its response was better than anything I would have expected. Now they have to follow through.

My son has been punched in a game a couple times (1st time the ref waived it off, the 2nd time the ref gave advantage despite the fact the punch dropped my son and never came back to issue a card). Never once have I run on the field to confront the puncher or tried to start a fight with the other parents (although I may have said something to the ref afterwards). However, if my son was ever seriously injured in a game you can bet that I will run onto the field to tend to my kid, the ref doesn't have medical authority over my child. Most competent refs are going to wave the parent on anyway. Only a ref with a very misguided sense of authority would prevent a parent from coming on to the field for a seriously injured child.

 

[espola]

May be they think that way but IDK. I get the sense that many of the posters feel like Calsouth hasn't addressed serious bad behavior from clubs, coaches, parents, refs and players in the past which has created an environment where bad behavior is tolerated. I was very skeptical how Calsouth was going to respond in this situation. Its response was better than anything I would have expected. Now they have to follow through.

My son has been punched in a game a couple times (1st time the ref waived it off, the 2nd time the ref gave advantage despite the fact the punch dropped my son and never came back to issue a card). Never once have I run on the field to confront the puncher or tried to start a fight with the other parents (although I may have said something to the ref afterwards). However, if my son was ever seriously injured in a game you can bet that I will run onto the field to tend to my kid, the ref doesn't have medical authority over my child. Most competent refs are going to wave the parent on anyway. Only a ref with a very misguided sense of authority would prevent a parent from coming on to the field for a seriously injured child.

Many years ago when I was our club's representative to the Cal South annual meeting in LA, one of the items up for discussion and vote concerned re-organizing the whole PAD process. The measure passed. After the meeting, I spoke with the former PAD chairwoman and asked her about the background of the issue. She said that some members of the board were upset that some powerful coaches and administrators (that's how she described them - I have no way to verify it) who were friends with the board members had been punished with suspensions and fines by the old PAD. We didn't really have time to get into details, and I took it with a grain of salt. However, over the years, we have seen discussed on this forum many instances where the Cal South BOD said one thing one day and then reversed itself soon after. I don't know why that should happen.

As for the latest tournament issue - it seems to me that the two identified miscreants were associated with the Azteca team, and yet many here are posting opinions that Albion (team, coach, club, parents, etc) should be punished. What am I missing?