TheyBothPlay
BRONZE
No worries as long as with Surf or affiliates you have access to the Girls Soccer General Counsel to clear things up if any questions
What's going on Cal South and State Cup Semi's?
- Thread starter sdb
- Start date
No worries as long as with Surf or affiliates you have access to the Girls Soccer General Counsel to clear things up if any questions
Thunderbolt
BRONZE
No worries as long as with Surf or affiliates you have access to the Girls Soccer General Counsel to clear things up if any questions
He already has access.
TheyBothPlay
BRONZE
No worries as long as with Surf or affiliates you have access to the Girls Soccer General Counsel to clear things up if any questions
That was said with both a tinge of shame in that I'll confess I've found myself thinking about the law in connection with kids' soccer a few times over the years and a tinge of jealousy that all we get under those circumstances is a debate on the sidelines rather than an advocate!
True dat! Direct Thunderbolt line as well!
clueless parent
SILVER
Thunderbolt,
It sounds as though you have first hand knowledge of the situation and perhaps the deliberations of the decision-makers at Cal South. The terminology you use ("valid, embossed, stamped, original birth certificate...") suggests that you have been advised by legal counsel. Assuming that you are not a legal advocate for Anaheim Surf (or the larger Surf organization). you are in a position to make important changes in the process going forward. For this reason, I am sharing my thoughts. I write this post in the spirit of avoiding such an unnecessarily unpleasant situation in the future. I am thinking of the kids. I have no skin in this game. No child in this age group. Truthfulness and fairness are the cornerstones of sports. As an overall concept, proper age placement can be a significant factor in child safety. One of the reasons for age groups is to ensure safe playing conditions, to the extent possible.
No registrar at any given club or any official at Cal South is qualified to determine whether a birth certificate is "valid". The only persons who are qualified to authenticate/verify the validity of a birth certificate is a person who is employed to issue and/or review birth certificates in the office of the county that issues birth certificates. If you are a lawyer or have received legal counsel, you know this.
Here is where you can use your influential voice to make productive changes. Cal South needs to establish a protocol when the validity of a birth certificate is called into question. Cal South needs to put a plan into place that allows quick verification from the most knowledge person in the county that issues the birth certificate to verify whether the submitted certificate is valid and actually issued by that entity. Any entity issuing birth certificates will require parental consent before releasing private information about any given child. One idea may be for Cal South to include a release from parents when registering each child that upon question, Cal South may obtain that information from the relevant county. Cal South can set up a mandated reporting procedure when someone questions a club about the validity of a birth certificate. If someone questions a birth certificate, the club could be required per Cal South rules to immediately forward the question to Cal South, which with new procedures in place will be able to fairly quickly ascertain if the birth certificate is valid. The club does its part, without the need for an army of lawyers to verify the birth certificate.
School are forbidden by law to provide students records, such as dates of birth, without parental consent. In this case, did the school provide the student's record of date of birth directly to Cal South and/or to Anaheim Surf with the parents' consent? Or did the parents provide purported school records on their own? The distinction is important.
I do hope that you use your apparent influence to help create a useful system for resolving these questions so that the kids can play soccer in a fair, honest, and safe system.
If Cal South cares at all about the opinions of a few dozen parents of players under their jurisdiction, or of a few (probably fewer) coaches, referees and administrators working under their jurisdiction, they will produce a clear and complete accounting of what happened over the last week, and their official position on what would happen if such a situation should arise in the future.
Here's the deal - Cheaters are gonna cheat and will always find a way to circumvent the rules if it's important enough to them. The thought of having an official from a youth sports league having the need to get a release form to go to check county records for the sake of verifying the age of a pre-pubescent kid is a bit silly.
The threat of public shame and your kid being banned from the league should be threat enough for a family to follow the rules.
Not saying that lower level sports should be different, but if a rec league 7 year old fudges something so they can play with their best friend or relative, big deal. But when you are in a competitive league and playing for a "State Cup", there should be zero tolerance.
The threat of public shame and your kid being banned from the league should be threat enough for a family to follow the rules.
Not saying that lower level sports should be different, but if a rec league 7 year old fudges something so they can play with their best friend or relative, big deal. But when you are in a competitive league and playing for a "State Cup", there should be zero tolerance.
Especially among those who are empowered with regulating the competition.
Daniel Miller
SILVER ELITE
Personally, I don't know what "Thunderbolt" is doing on a board like this if he really is the lawyer representing Surf. It would be just plain assinine for a lawyer to go on a public chat board and start talking about a case. It sounds like a guy who just doesn't have enough integrity or self-control to keep his mouth shut about his client's personal business. It sounds lie a guy who just wants to feel important in a public way. I'm no lawyer, but I have to believe there are ethical rules prohibiting a lawyer from publicly commenting on cases where it may impugn his client's integrity. Which he has done. What a boob.
In this case, based on what Thunderbolt has said, and assuming he is Surf's lawyer, it seems to me that he has implicated his client in a case of outright cheating. It very much seems like he has hung this player out to dry in an effort to "clear" Surf's name. He seems to argue that Surf was "fooled" into believing her 2006 birth certificate. I don't believe Surf was fooled by anybody, and the reason I don't is because of the evasive responses that Thunderbolt made on this board. He does not once respond to the allegations that the coach (and therefore the club) were specifically told about the 2005 birth certificate. He does not once explain how the club could have somehow "overlooked" the prior 2005 birth certificate, which was allegedly shown to the club. His whole defense of Surf is that it "just didn't know" what was going on. It's laughable.
And he does not once explain why Surf should get a pass for having actually played games in the State Cup with a player who - by all accounts given so far - was illegally rostered. Does this seem honest to you? No, and not to me, either.
When I consider his comments, which I find wholly incredible, I simply cannot believe that either Surf or this lawyer acted with integrity, or in the spirit of the game. Surf should have forfeited, instead of gaming the system by having a play-acting lawyer show up. And Calsouth should not have been cowed.
This is a disgrace all around. From a sportsmanship standpoint, Surf is crap. They have nothing to be proud of - nothing. And neither does their forum-yapping lawyer, whose best work is apparently done here, on these boards. I hope, for the good of Southern California sports, that people remember the methods used by Surf to grab some hardware, and I hope people refuse to send their children to their clubs, camps and tournaments.
In this case, based on what Thunderbolt has said, and assuming he is Surf's lawyer, it seems to me that he has implicated his client in a case of outright cheating. It very much seems like he has hung this player out to dry in an effort to "clear" Surf's name. He seems to argue that Surf was "fooled" into believing her 2006 birth certificate. I don't believe Surf was fooled by anybody, and the reason I don't is because of the evasive responses that Thunderbolt made on this board. He does not once respond to the allegations that the coach (and therefore the club) were specifically told about the 2005 birth certificate. He does not once explain how the club could have somehow "overlooked" the prior 2005 birth certificate, which was allegedly shown to the club. His whole defense of Surf is that it "just didn't know" what was going on. It's laughable.
And he does not once explain why Surf should get a pass for having actually played games in the State Cup with a player who - by all accounts given so far - was illegally rostered. Does this seem honest to you? No, and not to me, either.
When I consider his comments, which I find wholly incredible, I simply cannot believe that either Surf or this lawyer acted with integrity, or in the spirit of the game. Surf should have forfeited, instead of gaming the system by having a play-acting lawyer show up. And Calsouth should not have been cowed.
This is a disgrace all around. From a sportsmanship standpoint, Surf is crap. They have nothing to be proud of - nothing. And neither does their forum-yapping lawyer, whose best work is apparently done here, on these boards. I hope, for the good of Southern California sports, that people remember the methods used by Surf to grab some hardware, and I hope people refuse to send their children to their clubs, camps and tournaments.
If this is true then it appears we can add another trophy to Surf's cabinet - a coach imprisoned for having sexual relations with underage girl he was coaching, a coach kicked off ODP staff for recruiting at practice, and now a team that got away with an illegal player at State Cup. I feel I might have forgotten something, though.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't BW fired from ODP?
Kicknit22
GOLD
He should be!
Thunderbolt
BRONZE
I agree with most of this. Thanks for your thoughtful and reasoned comment.
We all just want the truth to be heard and recognized. Any measures put in place to insure that I am in favor of.
As to this case, the Anaheim Surf Registrar received the parents' consent and requested the records directly from the school, which were provided and sent to CalSouth.
Charlotte's Chauffeur
SILVER
.
I am... FYI:
California Business and Professions Code Section 6068: It is the duty of an attorney to do all of the following:
(e) (1) To maintain inviolate the confidence, and at every peril to himself or herself to preserve the secrets, of his or her client. http://codes.findlaw.com/ca/business-and-professions-code/bpc-sect-6068.html
And California Rules of Professional Conduct 3-100:
(A) A member shall not reveal information protected from disclosure by Business and Professions Code section 6068, subdivision (e)(1) without the informed consent of the client, or as provided in paragraph (B) of this rule.
http://rules.calbar.ca.gov/Rules/RulesofProfessionalConduct/CurrentRules/Rule3100.aspx
3SoccerLadies
SILVER ELITE
Surf had a chance to do right by the family and the integrity of the game and our kids. Instead they chose to protect the brand at the expense of the risk it put this family at. And, better yet, whether you like BW or not, they threw him under the bus and didnt allow him to do what he thought was right. The truth will come out over the next months.
BT and the Surf organization are banking on the fact that we will all just let this go. I had to explain to my daughter three times how 'cheaters can win.' She just could not grasp how this could happen. But, there are extenuating circumstances here that make many of us question our own sense of justice and morality. No, that isnt some high and might thing. But, I am absolutely certain that BT and Surf know what they are risking relative to the fate of a family vs the fate of the club name.
There isnt much more to be said about this at this point. Its done. Anaheim Surf won and that team will break up after this season. By all accounts, it was a somber State Cup victory. BW will move on to something else and it is highly likely that more pressure will end up on him when this gets publicized much more broadly. Surf will be just fine and move on with only a little glitch as people realize one of their top board members actually defended this and made dumb ego decisions and was willing to sacrifice the fate of a family for a clubs name/'ego'.
Congrats AS for winning. Now begins the most interesting part of this. We shall all have to determine what life lesson this brings for us all to tell our children. Especially those that played AS in group play, OC Strikers, LAGSB, Legends and Surf. I, for one, am telling my daughter the truth. 'Sometimes life isnt fair and cheaters do win. Move on but also do what you can to ensure justice is served. If you can do something to expose bad in the world, do it.'
Good luck Surf
BT and the Surf organization are banking on the fact that we will all just let this go. I had to explain to my daughter three times how 'cheaters can win.' She just could not grasp how this could happen. But, there are extenuating circumstances here that make many of us question our own sense of justice and morality. No, that isnt some high and might thing. But, I am absolutely certain that BT and Surf know what they are risking relative to the fate of a family vs the fate of the club name.
There isnt much more to be said about this at this point. Its done. Anaheim Surf won and that team will break up after this season. By all accounts, it was a somber State Cup victory. BW will move on to something else and it is highly likely that more pressure will end up on him when this gets publicized much more broadly. Surf will be just fine and move on with only a little glitch as people realize one of their top board members actually defended this and made dumb ego decisions and was willing to sacrifice the fate of a family for a clubs name/'ego'.
Congrats AS for winning. Now begins the most interesting part of this. We shall all have to determine what life lesson this brings for us all to tell our children. Especially those that played AS in group play, OC Strikers, LAGSB, Legends and Surf. I, for one, am telling my daughter the truth. 'Sometimes life isnt fair and cheaters do win. Move on but also do what you can to ensure justice is served. If you can do something to expose bad in the world, do it.'
Good luck Surf
3SoccerLadies
SILVER ELITE
Thunderbolt,
Like a true lawyer, you continue to ensure the fundamental question is unanswered. Why would the player have been registered with a 2005 birthday for multiple years and then 'finally' register with her true birthday as a 2006 in the year there was an age group change? And, oh by the way, when many sources have said that this was a 'package deal' that needed her to be an 06 for the other players that AS wanted.
Oh, and what was the reason for her DQ in the first place? No one has yet to see that reasoning.
Like a true lawyer, you continue to ensure the fundamental question is unanswered. Why would the player have been registered with a 2005 birthday for multiple years and then 'finally' register with her true birthday as a 2006 in the year there was an age group change? And, oh by the way, when many sources have said that this was a 'package deal' that needed her to be an 06 for the other players that AS wanted.
Oh, and what was the reason for her DQ in the first place? No one has yet to see that reasoning.
Forgive my simple view of things, but if the player was found finally to be illegal why wasn't the team disqualified? Or, on the other hand, if the player was found to be legal, why wasn't she allowed to play?
The age limit rules are not set in place to preserve the careers of any coach, manager, or registrar. They are intended to protect the players from unfair competition. Again, just my simple viewpoint.
Thunderbolt
BRONZE
I don't really have anything to add to my earlier comments. It seems some people are unwilling to accept the truth.
Anaheim Surf had no knowledge of any previous CalSouth submissions when the player registered, and verified the birth certificate as required when the player was transferred in.
CalSouth rightly requested a review of those documents when a complaint was made by a team beaten by the Anaheim Surf team. The registrar provided the documents as requested. After reviewing the original birth certificate, CalSouth made the determination that the team could continue. It was the right call. CalSouth's procedures were followed and they worked to produce the right result.
When you have an original birth certificate in your hands, and a secondary form of ID in your hands, and school records in your hands that ALL CONFIRM THE 2006 BIRTHDATE, how do you ignore that?
Best of luck to all in this age group. Exciting times are ahead and youth soccer changes every year. Let's hope we can all evolve to provide the best learning environment for our kids to grow and compete to be the best in the world.
Anaheim Surf had no knowledge of any previous CalSouth submissions when the player registered, and verified the birth certificate as required when the player was transferred in.
CalSouth rightly requested a review of those documents when a complaint was made by a team beaten by the Anaheim Surf team. The registrar provided the documents as requested. After reviewing the original birth certificate, CalSouth made the determination that the team could continue. It was the right call. CalSouth's procedures were followed and they worked to produce the right result.
When you have an original birth certificate in your hands, and a secondary form of ID in your hands, and school records in your hands that ALL CONFIRM THE 2006 BIRTHDATE, how do you ignore that?
Best of luck to all in this age group. Exciting times are ahead and youth soccer changes every year. Let's hope we can all evolve to provide the best learning environment for our kids to grow and compete to be the best in the world.