War in Ukraine soon?

[WestOfFive]

I did not say anything about not calling out China. What I am saying is that if China really want to land grab these regions and keep them for centuries, then China should follow the footsteps of Polk and Jackson by integrating these regions into China instead of making autonomous regions like what the Communists like to do. These would include eradicating their local culture and language and moving large population into the region. Building reservation camps so that the indigneous can be repopulated just like what Jackson did. Now, this is if their goal is land grab them like what Polk and Jackson wanted. Why create self governing autonomous regions unless they have a different objective?

China’s military hierarchy has long fretted that modern Chinese men, raised in “one child” families, lack the martial vigour to wage war. An influential 2010 paper by Admiral Luo Yuan railed against the “bad phenomenon” of effeminate men as an imminent disaster to the nation-state. Xi himself has said the collapse of the Soviet Union was because “no one was man enough” to hold it together.

 

[watfly]

Idk... at this point Putin seems on track to lose? Even his own people are upset with him and the way things are going.

If we let Polish jets landing at American military bases kill thousands of Russian soldiers stuck in the convoys- that could spiral off in a bad direction. We'd lose any hope of China's support, and also likely the Europeans who are heavily dependent on Russian oil and gas.

Yeah I hear you. My concern is that Putin flattens Ukraine and kills 100's of thousands before he "loses". I'm not even sure what Putin loses looks like. He doesn't seem to care if he becomes a pariah to the world or even Russians. I don't know that anything other than him being overthrown is a Putin loss. In my mind Ukraine winning is only temporary. I'm afraid that he may use tactical nuclear because it may be the only way to achieve a military victory. Best case is he cruise missiles, thermo and cluster bombs the shit out of Ukraine.

No real good solutions here.

 

[tenacious]

I did not say anything about not calling out China. What I am saying is that if China really want to land grab these regions and keep them for centuries, then China should follow the footsteps of Polk and Jackson by integrating these regions into China instead of making autonomous regions like what the Communists like to do. These would include eradicating their local culture and language and moving large population into the region. Building reservation camps so that the indigneous can be repopulated just like what Jackson did. Now, this is if their goal is land grab them like what Polk and Jackson wanted. Why create self governing autonomous regions unless they have a different objective?

Well I guess the first issue is China is a signatory member of the Geneva Convention and therefor the nations leaders would be criminally liable for the consequences, should they break the treaty and ever want to do some travel abroad.

Also, just for kicks since I would add that if the Chinese are into culturally cleansing colonized territory as your suggesting, I’m not sure pre-industrial revolutionary figures like Jackson and Polk were all that successful models for them to follow. Better examples would be Stalin’s purges, Hitler, Pol Pot, Mao’s Cultural Revolution, the Japanese sacking of Manchuria.

 

[tenacious]

Yeah I hear you. My concern is that Putin flattens Ukraine and kills 100's of thousands before he "loses". I'm not even sure what Putin loses looks like. He doesn't seem to care if he becomes a pariah to the world or even Russians. I don't know that anything other than him being overthrown is a Putin loss. In my mind Ukraine winning is only temporary. I'm afraid that he may use tactical nuclear because it may be the only way to achieve a military victory. Best case is he cruise missiles, thermo and cluster bombs the shit out of Ukraine.

No real good solutions here.

Yeah I agree, no great solutions. The best we can hope for is to make this miserable and expensive enough for Putin that future strong men check themselves, before they wreck themselves.

 

[Desert Hound]

"Buy an electric vehicle" is not a viable option

It isnt viable on a large scale right now. If magically everyone had an electric car...we do not have the infrastructure for charging the vehicles...and more importantly we don't have enough fossil fuel power plants to power these "clean" vehicles.

 

[Grace T.]

If it happens it's a substantial escalation and not sure the cooler heads will be able to beat back the calls for a no fly zone.

White House warns Russia could use chemical weapons in Ukraine

White House press secretary Jen Psaki on Wednesday warned of the potential for Russia to use chemical weapons in Ukraine after Moscow alleged the United States was housing biological weapons in Ukr…

thehill.com

 

[espola]

It isnt viable on a large scale right now. If magically everyone had an electric car...we do not have the infrastructure for charging the vehicles...and more importantly we don't have enough fossil fuel power plants to power these "clean" vehicles.

If everyone magically had an electric car, everyone would magically have a solar system to charge it.

 

[dad4]

If it happens it's a substantial escalation and not sure the cooler heads will be able to beat back the calls for a no fly zone.

White House warns Russia could use chemical weapons in Ukraine

White House press secretary Jen Psaki on Wednesday warned of the potential for Russia to use chemical weapons in Ukraine after Moscow alleged the United States was housing biological weapons in Ukr…

thehill.com

Self-declared cooler heads had their way in ‘45, ‘56 and ‘68. We abandoned hundreds of millions of people in Eastern Europe by bending whenever and wherever Russia pushed.

Cooler heads had their way in Aleppo, Libya, and Grozny. It doesn’t seem to work. Wagging a finger while buying their oil is not a winning strategy.

The thing that actually worked was standing up to the Soviets and matching their buildup. There is a reason the first cold war ended under Reagan and not Carter.

 

[watfly]

If everyone magically had an electric car, everyone would magically have a solar system to charge it.

And an updated panel at their home or apartment with multiple outlets to plug into. Having done a number of commercial installations at our low electrical use properties, I'm doubting we have enough roof space for panels to power everyone's electric vehicles without massive solar farms in the desert.

 

[blam]

If it happens it's a substantial escalation and not sure the cooler heads will be able to beat back the calls for a no fly zone.

White House warns Russia could use chemical weapons in Ukraine

White House press secretary Jen Psaki on Wednesday warned of the potential for Russia to use chemical weapons in Ukraine after Moscow alleged the United States was housing biological weapons in Ukr…

thehill.com

Did you get the news that bio labs financed by the US were found in Ukraine? I have avoided the mainstream media this time so I am not sure if this is being reported by the CNNs. Or did the CNN publish a news report only for the purpose to debunk the claim instead of reporting the claim. Especially during war time, I expect propaganda from both sides. Just checking.

 

[Grace T.]

Self-declared cooler heads had their way in ‘45, ‘56 and ‘68. We abandoned hundreds of millions of people in Eastern Europe by bending whenever and wherever Russia pushed.

Cooler heads had their way in Aleppo, Libya, and Grozny. It doesn’t seem to work. Wagging a finger while buying their oil is not a winning strategy.

The thing that actually worked was standing up to the Soviets and matching their buildup. There is a reason the first cold war ended under Reagan and not Carter.

I agree we need to take the pain and cut off their oil. It's going to have a profound and shockingly underestimated push on our own economy (I'm seeing some projections of eight dollar gas by summer by some colleagues in the oil and gas industry). At eight dollars, it has waves out including food prices, shipping, commodities, and even if it is worth it for some people to work. I agree it's a price that needs to be paid.

But as we've discussed, I don't think a no fly zone is the way to go unless you want to risk nuclear war. By definition it involves NATO airstrikes into Russian territory (including the loss of civilian life since Putin will no doubt use the insurgent playbook and stick his anti air in schools), and likely Russian retaliation with cruise missiles and the first line combat aircraft it has in reserve to Poland, Germany, and Romania to hit airbases. You are gambling that the US action will cause the generals to throw out Putin, because we've established already Putin is not acting fully rationally.

It's ok to argue this position, but let's be clear you are arguing for a risk of nuclear war now (as opposed to the future where Putin, who may not even be there, may or may not be in a position to take further action considering how bankrupt he is and will grow weaker year over year). That's just funny coming from you, considering how both COVID freaked you were and how concerned about climate change (even a few tactical nukes is a climate disaster).

I had a tangentel touch BTW on the Reagan cold war policy. My college advisor was one of the people who contributed to the evil empire speech. I was pro hawk. But even the hawks were clear that if we had militarily intervened with actual troops or planes in Hungary and Czechoslovankia, WWIII would be a likely result.

 

[what-happened]

If everyone magically had an electric car, everyone would magically have a solar system to charge it.

yes of course, right after the little fairy sprinkles fairy dust everywhere.

 

[espola]

yes of course, right after the little fairy sprinkles fairy dust everywhere.

You are forgetting the "magically" part -- it works both ways.

On a more serious note, the rate of growth of home solar systems in California approximates the rate of growth of electric car sales.

 

[thirteenknots]

I agree we need to take the pain and cut off their oil. It's going to have a profound and shockingly underestimated push on our own economy (I'm seeing some projections of eight dollar gas by summer by some colleagues in the oil and gas industry). At eight dollars, it has waves out including food prices, shipping, commodities, and even if it is worth it for some people to work. I agree it's a price that needs to be paid.

But as we've discussed, I don't think a no fly zone is the way to go unless you want to risk nuclear war. By definition it involves NATO airstrikes into Russian territory (including the loss of civilian life since Putin will no doubt use the insurgent playbook and stick his anti air in schools), and likely Russian retaliation with cruise missiles and the first line combat aircraft it has in reserve to Poland, Germany, and Romania to hit airbases. You are gambling that the US action will cause the generals to throw out Putin, because we've established already Putin is not acting fully rationally.

It's ok to argue this position, but let's be clear you are arguing for a risk of nuclear war now (as opposed to the future where Putin, who may not even be there, may or may not be in a position to take further action considering how bankrupt he is and will grow weaker year over year). That's just funny coming from you, considering how both COVID freaked you were and how concerned about climate change (even a few tactical nukes is a climate disaster).

I had a tangentel touch BTW on the Reagan cold war policy. My college advisor was one of the people who contributed to the evil empire speech. I was pro hawk. But even the hawks were clear that if we had militarily intervened with actual troops or planes in Hungary and Czechoslovankia, WWIII would be a likely result.

At some point this has to stop.
And what I mean by stop is the Kowtowing to China, Russia, North Korea, Venezuela, Cuba
and all of the lunatic activists in this once Great Country called America.
Someone needs to tap the current " resident " in the snot locker and tell him
to grow up and take the lead or take your sorry team home and let someone
else give it a go as an ADULT.
The " resident " likes to talk tough, but his pacifist actions speak volumes.
Putin is no pussy, he's a piece of crap thug tyrant, but he's no pussy.
He's got the " resident's " number and it's 0.
Biden is a Bronze team with AYSO players behind him up against a battle
hardened LaLiga team with piss bottles at the ready.
The tough talk only lasts so long.

 

[whatithink]

It isnt viable on a large scale right now. If magically everyone had an electric car...we do not have the infrastructure for charging the vehicles...and more importantly we don't have enough fossil fuel power plants to power these "clean" vehicles.

Agree, I stayed in a hotel for Surf Thanksgiving and I was shocked that it didn't have a single EV charging station. We love to drive and need to drive in this vast country of ours. Being able to pull in, fill up and head out again is just part & parcel of that. Having to pull in and wait for an hour or 2 to charge up to go again , or queue to wait for a spot to then wait ... ain't going to hack it.

 

[whatithink]

Yeah I agree, no great solutions. The best we can hope for is to make this miserable and expensive enough for Putin that future strong men check themselves, before they wreck themselves.

I think the next escalation (for the west) is along the lines of with us or against us, specifically with China & India. I wasn't a Bush fan as such, but he made it crystal clear to the world, and the world knew the US was 100% serious.

I don't think they should be allowed to sit on the sidelines. Just as the west is on the road to devastating Russia's economy, it can devastate their's also. Of course, there is enormous blow back on the west with that action. I think the Europeans would probably go with it, as their threat is real and local. I don't think the Americans would take the pain though, mores the pity. IMV, this is a real fight and the US is in it, we need to deal with it, and take the pain for the long term gain.

If Putin becomes isolated from China & India, I think he falls internally.

 

[whatithink]

At some point this has to stop.
And what I mean by stop is the Kowtowing to China, Russia, North Korea, Venezuela, Cuba
and all of the lunatic activists in this once Great Country called America.
Someone needs to tap the current " resident " in the snot locker and tell him
to grow up and take the lead or take your sorry team home and let someone
else give it a go as an ADULT.
The " resident " likes to talk tough, but his pacifist actions speak volumes.
Putin is no pussy, he's a piece of crap thug tyrant, but he's no pussy.
He's got the " resident's " number and it's 0.
Biden is a Bronze team with AYSO players behind him up against a battle
hardened LaLiga team with piss bottles at the ready.
The tough talk only lasts so long.

I actually agree with some of that ... I must have entered the twilight zone ... I need to lie down!!!

 

[blam]

And what I mean by stop is the Kowtowing to China, Russia, North Korea, Venezuela, Cuba

I do not know why you are playing the victim card here. USA is the one who goes to these regions of the world and instead of promoting policies that raises the standard of living in these regions, it tries to pit neighbour against neighbour. Imagine you go to a group of friends with 5 people. You are the one who is trying to cause them to fight each other. Super anti social behavior.

Putin is definitely the right leader for Russia, compared to Yeltsin. There may be a better leader out there that I am not aware of. When Putin became president of Russia, Russia began to have order. Its GDP began to track upwards. Put yourself in Russian shoes, would you have picked Yeltsin or Putin?

Btw, you miss putting Libya, Iraq and Afghanistan on that list. These countries still do need help. Or was the goal just to dispose off the leader making sure these nations are poorer or less powerful and never about making these countries more richer and powerful?

 

[watfly]

I do not know why you are playing the victim card here. USA is the one who goes to these regions of the world and instead of promoting policies that raises the standard of living in these regions, it tries to pit neighbour against neighbour. Imagine you go to a group of friends with 5 people. You are the one who is trying to cause them to fight each other. Super anti social behavior.

Putin is definitely the right leader for Russia, compared to Yeltsin. There may be a better leader out there that I am not aware of. When Putin became president of Russia, Russia began to have order. Its GDP began to track upwards. Put yourself in Russian shoes, would you have picked Yeltsin or Putin?

Btw, you miss putting Libya, Iraq and Afghanistan on that list. These countries still do need help. Or was the goal just to dispose off the leader making sure these nations are poorer or less powerful and never about making these countries more richer and powerful?

You do realize Putin came to power through a "false flag" operation where he/FSB killed 100's of Russian apartment residents.

Putin has never needed an excuse to escalate anything. He allegedly has bombed 18 hospitals in Ukraine and killed women and children who were trying to escape the country under a ceasefire.

I will stop short of a no fly zone, but send the f'ing MIG's. Maybe the administration will borrow an extra pair from Zelensky, we know he has plenty.

 

[Hüsker Dü]

I don’t know about the rest of all ya all but in the time I have been in these various forums Dominic has provided I for one NEVER would have imagined in a million years any poster in this sub-forum of a soccer site would be in here showing their love for Putin.