Vaccine

In other words you don't own a business that relies on in person patronage?
A conscious decision to choose ten million service jobs over 750,000 deaths from covid is at least a thinking response that acknowledges both sides of the equation.

That is much better than saying “No, no. The outbreak has nothing to do with bars, restaurants, casinos, stadiums, travel, or private parties. I can do whatever I want with no consequences for anyone.“
 
A conscious decision to choose ten million service jobs over 750,000 deaths from covid is at least a thinking response that acknowledges both sides of the equation.

That is much better than saying “No, no. The outbreak has nothing to do with bars, restaurants, casinos, stadiums, travel, or private parties. I can do whatever I want with no consequences for anyone.“

Now your just bending your own math for partisan rhetoric. Closing the bars and restaurants doesn't save 750,000 lives. We can argue whether it saves 10,000 or 100,000 but that's not the cost benefit analysis on the table. People are still working at the pharmacies, as plumbers and electricians, in factories, in construction sites, for takeout, on farms and meat processing plants, in police fire and the military and still passing the virus there. If you are going to call for a 'thinking response that acknowledges both sides of the equation" at least make an attempt to be accurate about the numbers.
 
Now your just bending your own math for partisan rhetoric. Closing the bars and restaurants doesn't save 750,000 lives. We can argue whether it saves 10,000 or 100,000 but that's not the cost benefit analysis on the table. People are still working at the pharmacies, as plumbers and electricians, in factories, in construction sites, for takeout, on farms and meat processing plants, in police fire and the military and still passing the virus there. If you are going to call for a 'thinking response that acknowledges both sides of the equation" at least make an attempt to be accurate about the numbers.
I wasn’t aware that China, Japan, Korea, Australia, and New Zealand stopped all farming, ceased all construction, closed all their factories, and disbanded the military for the last 20 months. They steps they took were far milder than that.

Other than a few industries like meat packing, the real barrier wasn’t work. It was adult recreation. Are we capable of living without our bars and casinos for 15 months? Sadly, the answer was no. We lasted less than 3 months before we decided it was time to loot Target.
 
I wasn’t aware that China, Japan, Korea, Australia, and New Zealand stopped all farming, ceased all construction, closed all their factories, and disbanded the military for the last 20 months. They steps they took were far milder than that.

Other than a few industries like meat packing, the real barrier wasn’t work. It was adult recreation. Are we capable of living without our bars and casinos for 15 months? Sadly, the answer was no. We lasted less than 3 months before we decided it was time to loot Target.


and there we are....the admission you've danced around from the beginning and never wanted to say....your true solution is the authoritarians. And again, with the exception of China on that list, they've all had outbreaks go out of control which they weren't able to contain, despite the draconian efforts. The fact that China is even on your list tells us EVERYTHING we need to know and EVERYTHING we've suspected about you, let alone australia and New Zealand.

it's also funny how it's gone from "are we capable of living without our bars and casinos for a month' to "are we capable of living without our bars and casinos for 15 months" [where's the 15 months coming from anyway...it's going on 2 years now....presumably maybe you are just shutting them in the winter in the north]
 
and there we are....the admission you've danced around from the beginning and never wanted to say....your true solution is the authoritarians. And again, with the exception of China on that list, they've all had outbreaks go out of control which they weren't able to contain, despite the draconian efforts. The fact that China is even on your list tells us EVERYTHING we need to know and EVERYTHING we've suspected about you, let alone australia and New Zealand.

it's also funny how it's gone from "are we capable of living without our bars and casinos for a month' to "are we capable of living without our bars and casinos for 15 months" [where's the 15 months coming from anyway...it's going on 2 years now....presumably maybe you are just shutting them in the winter in the north]
Yeah, yeah. Authoritarian ad-hominem. Don’t forget to call me preacher, and insult my reading comprehension.

15 months is the time gap from March 2020 to June 2021, when vaccines became widely available for adults. The whole thing should have been over in the US around July 2021. Vaccines can handle delta, and omicron is beginning to sound like a non-issue for the vaccinated and previously infected.

As it is, we’re now just waiting for delta to make its way through the remaining uninfected unvaccinated people. Eventually, almost all of them will be vaccinated, recovered, or - if very unlucky - dead.
 
Yeah, it would be tough. Not only would we have a smaller economic base, but we’d also still have a few hundred thousand more elderly people to care for.

I am not saying it was only bars and restaurants. It was anywhere people gather together indoors. And it was worse for any place with more people, more talking, longer time, less distance, fewer masks, or poor ventilation. Bars just happen to hit every one of those risk factors.
Yes of course, 100% isolation would have saved some lives. That approach would have shut most human to human contact: grocery stores, hardware stores, distribution centers (which I'm sure you leverage and continue to leverage on a weekly basis).

The overused "virus is going to virus" statement is unfortunately the only constant. It's proven itself to be the ony constant since this whole thing began. Lockdowns are not going to work, they were never going to work. Human nature won't allow it. Some will comply, most will not. Time isn't/wasn't on our side. Rapid vaccine development didn't stand in the way of increasing deaths, the numbers this year speak to that. It's too bad society was promised something that was nearly impossible to deliver on. Pharma has a way of convincing government that their biased, greedy ideas will solve problems. Remember when you were told how the vaccines would bring everything back to normal? July 4th BBQs in backyards with friends and families. They were lying through their teeth, fully knowing vaccines were mediocore at best.
 
As it is, we’re now just waiting for delta to make its way through the remaining uninfected unvaccinated people. Eventually, almost all of them will be vaccinated, recovered, or - if very unlucky - dead.
This doesn't even make sense. Upticks in vaccinted deaths and hospitalizations are happening everywhere. Your next statement is likely that this is now a pandemic of the unvaccinated. It was a silly statement a few months ago, and it remains a silly statement.
 
Yeah, yeah. Authoritarian ad-hominem. Don’t forget to call me preacher, and insult my reading comprehension.

15 months is the time gap from March 2020 to June 2021, when vaccines became widely available for adults. The whole thing should have been over in the US around July 2021. Vaccines can handle delta, and omicron is beginning to sound like a non-issue for the vaccinated and previously infected.

As it is, we’re now just waiting for delta to make its way through the remaining uninfected unvaccinated people. Eventually, almost all of them will be vaccinated, recovered, or - if very unlucky - dead.

a. Espola's already established those aren't ad-hominem. They aren't attacking your character, only your argument (i.e., your list) that you prefer authoritarian solutions and that you've finally come clear about it.
b. Even if the US had matched vaccination rates as in Ireland, Israel, Singapore, Gilbraltar, Iceland or even Germany it wouldn't be over as long as we are concerned about cases and the current round of European lockdowns prove that. It's just wishful "if only" thinking on your part, The issue isn't the US vaccination rate....it's the blue check response to cases.
c. At least we agree it should have been over July 2021. It's clear we don't agree for the reasons.
 
a. Espola's already established those aren't ad-hominem. They aren't attacking your character, only your argument (i.e., your list) that you prefer authoritarian solutions and that you've finally come clear about it.
b. Even if the US had matched vaccination rates as in Ireland, Israel, Singapore, Gilbraltar, Iceland or even Germany it wouldn't be over as long as we are concerned about cases and the current round of European lockdowns prove that. It's just wishful "if only" thinking on your part, The issue isn't the US vaccination rate....it's the blue check response to cases.
c. At least we agree it should have been over July 2021. It's clear we don't agree for the reasons.

" EVERYTHING we need to know and EVERYTHING we've suspected about you"
 
This doesn't even make sense. Upticks in vaccinted deaths and hospitalizations are happening everywhere. Your next statement is likely that this is now a pandemic of the unvaccinated. It was a silly statement a few months ago, and it remains a silly statement.
I‘m not denying that vaccinated immunocompromised people are dying. They are. And the rest of us could choose to prevent most of those deaths by getting vaccinated and masking up. Expect this board to attack anyone who proposes it.

But that is not the majority of the deaths. The vast majority of the deaths are people who were not vaccinated. The unvaccinated risk of infection is over 5X as high as for the vaccinated. The unvaccinated risk of death is about 14x as high as the unvaccinated.


I think it’s entirely fair to say that delta has become a pandemic of the unvaccinated, which then leaks over into the vaccinated population.
 
Yes of course, 100% isolation would have saved some lives. That approach would have shut most human to human contact: grocery stores, hardware stores, distribution centers (which I'm sure you leverage and continue to leverage on a weekly basis).

The overused "virus is going to virus" statement is unfortunately the only constant. It's proven itself to be the ony constant since this whole thing began. Lockdowns are not going to work, they were never going to work. Human nature won't allow it. Some will comply, most will not. Time isn't/wasn't on our side. Rapid vaccine development didn't stand in the way of increasing deaths, the numbers this year speak to that. It's too bad society was promised something that was nearly impossible to deliver on. Pharma has a way of convincing government that their biased, greedy ideas will solve problems. Remember when you were told how the vaccines would bring everything back to normal? July 4th BBQs in backyards with friends and families. They were lying through their teeth, fully knowing vaccines were mediocore at best.
There’s that all or nothing in an attempt to bolster your needs.
 
" EVERYTHING we need to know and EVERYTHING we've suspected about you"

What? We've always suspected his preferred solution is Australia, NZ, China but he's never (until now) come out and said it. You know it, I know it, he knows it. Instead he's danced around the issue because he hasn't wanted to point blank say it. Again you know it, I know it, he knows it. This despite several times he's been asked about what his preferred solution really is (which he tries to cover by saying masks + indoor dining/bars/casinos) but we all suspected was this list. Again, per your test, its about the argument raised (and the past dishonesty with that argument) and not his character.
 
I think it’s entirely fair to say that delta has become a pandemic of the unvaccinated, which then leaks over into the vaccinated population.
That's an assumption that fits your narrative that is likely not true, or only partially true. The vaccinated can spread the virus to the vaccinated and there is zero evidence that the vaccinated can't spread it to the unvaccinated.

That's why the vaccination is primarily for your benefit in terms of protecting you from serious illness. Anecdotal, but I know quite a number of people that have breakthrough cases, far more than I know that were infected pre-vaccination (likely because of Delta?).

If the vaccination was significantly more effective at preventing infection, you'd have a more compelling argument "for the benefit of the community". However, its not and breakthrough infections are common. Vaccines should be highly recommended but not mandated.
 
What? We've always suspected his preferred solution is Australia, NZ, China but he's never (until now) come out and said it. You know it, I know it, he knows it. Instead he's danced around the issue because he hasn't wanted to point blank say it. Again you know it, I know it, he knows it. This despite several times he's been asked about what his preferred solution really is (which he tries to cover by saying masks + indoor dining/bars/casinos) but we all suspected was this list. Again, per your test, its about the argument raised (and the past dishonesty with that argument) and not his character.

That statement does not directly address his character?

Lrt's see it again --

" EVERYTHING we need to know and EVERYTHING we've suspected about you"
 
That statement does not directly address his character?

Lrt's see it again --

" EVERYTHING we need to know and EVERYTHING we've suspected about you"

Again, what we've suspected is that he supports the policies of China, NZ, and Oz but didn't want to come out and say it. You saying that's something he should be ashamed of and speaks to his character?
 
That's an assumption that fits your narrative that is likely not true, or only partially true. The vaccinated can spread the virus to the vaccinated and there is zero evidence that the vaccinated can't spread it to the unvaccinated.

That's why the vaccination is primarily for your benefit in terms of protecting you from serious illness. Anecdotal, but I know quite a number of people that have breakthrough cases, far more than I know that were infected pre-vaccination (likely because of Delta?).

If the vaccination was significantly more effective at preventing infection, you'd have a more compelling argument "for the benefit of the community". However, its not and breakthrough infections are common. Vaccines should be highly recommended but not mandated.
How effective would a vaccine need to be for a mandate to have your support? I doubt there is such a level.

Moving a gathering outside is tremendously effective at reducing transmission. Somewhere in the 90-95% range. An outdoor mandate is also far less intrusive than a vaccine mandate. Moving outside ought to be a very easy decision.

But an outdoor gathering rule has never had much support here. It tends to get responses like “people aren’t willing to do that and you can’t make us.”

If we aren’t willing to move our party to the patio, I don’t think we’re capable of much.
 
How effective would a vaccine need to be for it to have your support? I doubt there is such a level.
I fully support the vaccination with its current effectiveness. I recommend vaccinations but that's a decision between you and your doctor.

There is a lot more than just effectiveness to be considered like side effects, course of treatment and severity of disease your vaccinating against. But yes I don't think the government should be mandating personal medical treatment, particularly without compelling evidence. There are some legitimate reasons not to be vaccinated and their are other courses of action to prevent you from serious disease from Covid.

The burden of proof should be on those proposing the mandates. Hope is not a compelling reason.
 
Back
Top