Vaccine

dad4 said:
We send it south in vape canisters, but I don’t recommend drinking it.

More seriously, there is no scientific support for transmission equality between vaccinated and unvaccinated people. A few loons here keep raising their talking points, and keep getting rebutted.

It’s the same thing every time. An anti-vax person will say “but viral loads are equal if you get it”, never once remembering that a vaccinated person is less likely to get covid in the first place. (Evil Goalie’s chart in post 13,6745, among others.)

At some point, you stop trying logic and just reach for the popcorn while eotl calls everyone a dumbshit.
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I will just say this. It's hard not to trust our eyes. At least with Omicron the vaccination seems to provide very little protection. I tested positive on a Monday night after starting to not feel well that afternoon. I had a work meeting in the morning with 6 other colleagues for about an hour, (indoors but actually spaced far apart). 5 of my 6 colleagues got Covid within 2 to 10 days. The only colleague that didn't get it had it over Xmas. Every colleague that got it gave it to their spouse, including myself. BTW I quarantined in a different location from my family as soon as I was positive. My spouse may have not got it from me, but where I suspect I got from, a HS basketball game. Every person that got it was vaccinated and boosted with the exception of my wife and I who were not boosted. None of any of my colleagues kids got infected, some were vaccinated, some were not.

The vaccination may provide some limited protection against infection, but it doesn't provide any meaningful protection against community spread. To say otherwise is to completely ignore reality. Vaccination does appear to provide meaningful protection against serious health issues in many cases. Although, that is largely dependent on your co-conditions.

My conclusion, Omicron is insanely contagious regardless of vaccination status.
 
dad4 said:
We send it south in vape canisters, but I don’t recommend drinking it.
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I was thinking "Bay Area Bong Water", we put everything else in water, why not? Maybe its all in the marketing. "Woke Water infused with Cannabis" does sound more appealing.
 
dad4 said:
We send it south in vape canisters, but I don’t recommend drinking it.

More seriously, there is no scientific support for transmission equality between vaccinated and unvaccinated people. A few loons here keep raising their talking points, and keep getting rebutted.

It’s the same thing every time. An anti-vax person will say “but viral loads are equal if you get it”, never once remembering that a vaccinated person is less likely to get covid in the first place. (Evil Goalie’s chart in post 13,6745, among others.)

At some point, you stop trying logic and just reach for the popcorn while eotl calls everyone a dumbshit.
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The alt right crowd can't handle it when others use their tactic of insulting people against them. It's no wonder their snowflakey children are too emotionally feeble to wear masks at school.

You do a disservice to everyone by trying to have honest conversation with people who are not willing to engage in honest conversation. It only gives them and others the impression that their beliefs and opinions are anything more than an absolute embarrassment and a joke. In the last few days you have seen: (1) the self-proclaimed "serious legal scholar" Grace T. cite a twitter post to support her anti-mask agenda, although the attached study attached related to the unique situation in Catalonia, Spain and, more importantly, acknowledged two American studies (which she blithely ignores of course) about America's situation which show that wearing masks substantially reduces transmission here; (2) clown boy soccersc citing an article he claims shows vaccines aren't important in schools, although the article itself says exactly the opposite (to which he rationalizes that his inability to understand what words mean is "cherry picking"), and although he ignores (yet again) your point and the fact that the study also undermines his anti-mask position (actual cherry picking in other words); (3) desert cactus claiming NZ is doing a terrible job with Covid-19 while AZ is going bigly great with policies that kill more people of Covid on a typical day than NZ has had die of Covid in two freakin' years; (4) multiple anti-vaxxers/maskers and conspiracy theorists minimizing studies that establish Covid-19 was not created in a Wuhan lab to reduce population, because they haven't been "peer reviewed", but who then turn around and cite twitter and Tik tok instead; (5) their blatantly racist anti-vax/mask friend claiming in another thread that the U.S. has 27 super, duper secret biological weapons plants in the Ukraine where they're also hiding Hillary's emails about her secret lasagna recipe; and (6) all of them conveniently ignoring their biggest anti-vax/mask proponents crush and the racist, who remind everyone daily which side has the whackadoos.

Some day you will understand that you can't reason with people like this. Humiliating them is the only way to get them to take off their viking hats and face paint, and resign themselves to staying in their lane, which is the (intellectually) slow one.
 
watfly said:
I will just say this. It's hard not to trust our eyes. At least with Omicron the vaccination seems to provide very little protection. I tested positive on a Monday night after starting to not feel well that afternoon. I had a work meeting in the morning with 6 other colleagues for about an hour, (indoors but actually spaced far apart). 5 of my 6 colleagues got Covid within 2 to 10 days. The only colleague that didn't get it had it over Xmas. Every colleague that got it gave it to their spouse, including myself. BTW I quarantined in a different location from my family as soon as I was positive. My spouse may have not got it from me, but where I suspect I got from, a HS basketball game. Every person that got it was vaccinated and boosted with the exception of my wife and I who were not boosted. None of any of my colleagues kids got infected, some were vaccinated, some were not.

The vaccination may provide some limited protection against infection, but it doesn't provide any meaningful protection against community spread. To say otherwise is to completely ignore reality. Vaccination does appear to provide meaningful protection against serious health issues in many cases. Although, that is largely dependent on your co-conditions.

My conclusion, Omicron is insanely contagious regardless of vaccination status.
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Hmmmm....interesting had the same issue. Kiddos are double vaxxed and single vaxxed + prior immunity. I'm prior immunity+boosted. I got sick with omicron in early January but was sick for only 2 days (PCR negative but my home kit had a very light pink line). Kiddos did not get sick.
 
Grace T. said:
Hmmmm....interesting had the same issue. Kiddos are double vaxxed and single vaxxed + prior immunity. I'm prior immunity+boosted. I got sick with omicron in early January but was sick for only 2 days (PCR negative but my home kit had a very light pink line). Kiddos did not get sick.
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My kids were double vaxxed but not boosted. One colleagues two kids were unvaxxed, but prior immunity. Another had an unvaxxed toddler. Another had an unvaxxed toddler and young teen. None of them either got it, or showed symptoms. All them tested negative except for the toddlers who weren't tested.
 
Grace T. said:
Hmmmm....interesting had the same issue. Kiddos are double vaxxed and single vaxxed + prior immunity. I'm prior immunity+boosted. I got sick with omicron in early January but was sick for only 2 days (PCR negative but my home kit had a very light pink line). Kiddos did not get sick.
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"PCR negative but my home kit had a very light pink line" is the most Graceful statement she has ever posted.
 
watfly said:
My kids were double vaxxed but not boosted. One colleagues two kids were unvaxxed, but prior immunity. Another had an unvaxxed toddler. Another had an unvaxxed toddler and young teen. None of them either got it, or showed symptoms. All them tested negative except for the toddlers who weren't tested.
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watfly said:
I will just say this. It's hard not to trust our eyes. At least with Omicron the vaccination seems to provide very little protection. I tested positive on a Monday night after starting to not feel well that afternoon. I had a work meeting in the morning with 6 other colleagues for about an hour, (indoors but actually spaced far apart). 5 of my 6 colleagues got Covid within 2 to 10 days. The only colleague that didn't get it had it over Xmas. Every colleague that got it gave it to their spouse, including myself. BTW I quarantined in a different location from my family as soon as I was positive. My spouse may have not got it from me, but where I suspect I got from, a HS basketball game. Every person that got it was vaccinated and boosted with the exception of my wife and I who were not boosted. None of any of my colleagues kids got infected, some were vaccinated, some were not.

The vaccination may provide some limited protection against infection, but it doesn't provide any meaningful protection against community spread. To say otherwise is to completely ignore reality. Vaccination does appear to provide meaningful protection against serious health issues in many cases. Although, that is largely dependent on your co-conditions.

My conclusion, Omicron is insanely contagious regardless of vaccination status.
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Some quick questions.

1. What is one standard deviation between your one anecdotal experience and 330 million Americans? I'm trying to quantify the accuracy of your one experience and every time I run the numbers, it comes out "none at all". I want to make sure my math is right, so I figured I'd go straight to the source.

2. Did you include the fact that your two double vaxxed kids did not get Covid, and therefore did not spread it at school, when you reached your "scientific" conclusion that vaccinated students are equally likely to spread it at school as unvaccinated ones? Or are you one of the anti-vaxxers/maskers who claim that schools are a "safe space" from Covid and is impossible to spread there, so that's your reason kids shouldn't get vaccinated?

3. When you admit that vaccination does provide some limited protection against infection, but not meaningful protection against community spread, I want to make sure I understand what you mean. I think what you're trying to tell people is to not give two s**ts about the people around them because they'll just get it from someone else anyway. So even if getting vaccinated might have kept someone from getting infected and then giving it to someone else close to them who dies from it, that person would have just gotten it eventually anyway from someone else and then died. Right? It's fine to be the one who gives a deadly disease to your co-workers, classmates, family and others because a million people are gonna die anyway, more or less, so why not make it include people you know?

4. Can you please quantify for me the exact "limited protection" against infection that vaccines provide? 2%? 10%? 20% Where is the study that helped you reach this conclusion, or did you just make some shit up based on your one anecdotal experience upon which to conclude that getting vaccinated is pointless for helping keeping the people around you alive?
 
espola said:
"PCR negative but my home kit had a very light pink line" is the most Graceful statement she has ever posted.
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Yes, her vaccinated kids not getting Covid despite being exposed to it is very persuasive evidence that vaccines don't help reduce spread. Based on what Watfly says, who cares anyway if anyone gets vaccinated or wears masks in schools? If it's not unvaccinated Grace who kills the person next to her by giving them Covid, someone else will do it to them eventually, right? We anti-vaxxers can wash our hands of responsibility for the health and safety of the people around us because a million people will die anyway, more or less. It's no big deal if the reduction in infection rates (which Watfly admits exists) results in me not getting infected and then transmitting it to someone who then dies, because f**k them they had it coming eventually from someone else, so it's everyone's fault but mine. I can't stop community spread in America all by myself, so I may as well not get vaccinated or wear masks and get to work on killing those around me or, if I only hang out with young healthy people, their friends and family.
 
GoldenGate said:
Some quick questions.

1. What is one standard deviation between your one anecdotal experience and 330 million Americans? I'm trying to quantify the accuracy of your one experience and every time I run the numbers, it comes out "none at all". I want to make sure my math is right, so I figured I'd go straight to the source.

2. Did you include the fact that your two double vaxxed kids did not get Covid, and therefore did not spread it at school, when you reached your "scientific" conclusion that vaccinated students are equally likely to spread it at school as unvaccinated ones? Or are you one of the anti-vaxxers/maskers who claim that schools are a "safe space" from Covid and is impossible to spread there, so that's your reason kids shouldn't get vaccinated?

3. When you admit that vaccination does provide some limited protection against infection, but not meaningful protection against community spread, I want to make sure I understand what you mean. I think what you're trying to tell people is to not give two s**ts about the people around them because they'll just get it from someone else anyway. So even if getting vaccinated might have kept someone from getting infected and then giving it to someone else close to them who dies from it, that person would have just gotten it eventually anyway from someone else and then died. Right? It's fine to be the one who gives a deadly disease to your co-workers, classmates, family and others because a million people are gonna die anyway, more or less, so why not make it include people you know?

4. Can you please quantify for me the exact "limited protection" against infection that vaccines provide? 2%? 10%? 20% Where is the study that helped you reach this conclusion, or did you just make some shit up based on your one anecdotal experience upon which to conclude that getting vaccinated is pointless for helping keeping the people around you alive?
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I think your questions would be better addressed to someone that is actually anti-vax. I'd try Reddit again, unless you can resurrect Crush/Ellejustus/SoccerHelper.
 
Grace T. said:
It's easy if you think about it (but we all know you don't). I took the PCR test when I was starting to feel sick....I took the rapid test a couple days later
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"We all know you don't" is an unnecessary, dishonest, ad hominem attack. That, however, does not qualify for the "Most Graceful Post" award, mainly because it exhibits lazy, thoughtless behavior.
 
Grace T. said:
It's easy if you think about it (but we all know you don't). I took the PCR test when I was starting to feel sick....I took the rapid test a couple days later
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I kinda feel like the better place for you to start is by reading the actual studies before posting misleading tweets about what they say. It was a real hoot reading the study you claim says American kids should not wear masks, which actually cited two studies that said the exact opposite. If you're going to claim that wearing masks is too much emotionally for snowflake children, at least find something more directly misleading, ok?

Making up what studies say does sound like a fun game though. Here's one that says you and your anti-vax/mask friends can't walk and chew gum at the same time. Effects of chewing gum on mood, learning, memory and performance of an intelligence test - PubMed (nih.gov)
 
watfly said:
This provides a little window into cases of vaccinated vs unvaccinated. Not equal but the vaccinated get infected at a material rate.

View attachment 13090
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The breakdown by age is huge. The reduction for 65+ is a out 3x as strong as the reduction for 12-17.

Send the link. The super long time window makes it hard to see what is happening. The window you chose mixes the very low case rate, moderate transmissibility numbers from June 2021 with the very high case rate, very high transmissibility numbers from January 2022. They don’t really belong in the same sample.

If it just adds them all up, you get a misleading answer. The early population had more unvaccinated people. The late population has more vaccinated. This means your unvaccinated average is weighted towards the low case rate 2021 summer numbers. Conversely, your vaccinated average is weighted towards the Omicron surge.

Try the same thing with a 1-4 week window. That also would let you see whether the omicron protection is much different from delta..
 
dad4 said:
The breakdown by age is huge. The reduction for 65+ is a out 3x as strong as the reduction for 12-17.

Send the link. The super long time window makes it hard to see what is happening. The window you chose mixes the very low case rate, moderate transmissibility numbers from June 2021 with the very high case rate, very high transmissibility numbers from January 2022. They don’t really belong in the same sample.

If it just adds them all up, you get a misleading answer. The early population had more unvaccinated people. The late population has more vaccinated. This means your unvaccinated average is weighted towards the low case rate 2021 summer numbers. Conversely, your vaccinated average is weighted towards the Omicron surge.

Try the same thing with a 1-4 week window. That also would let you see whether the omicron protection is much different from delta..
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I don't necessarily disagree with you, it's likely not the best data, that's why I said window. It's only an indication that the vaccinated get infected at a material rate, and not a conclusive study. However, I haven't found (although I suspect there is) anywhere else where someone has attempted to make the comparison. I agree that you have to break it out between pre-vax, post-vax, Alpha, Delta and Omicron time periods. My suspicion is that for Omicron the rate of vaccinated infection is relatively high even in relation to the unvaccinated (its just that contagious). You also have to believe that behavior outside of being vaccinated influences these numbers as well. You would expect those at older ages (ie higher risk) who are vaccinated to also engage in less "risky" behavior as compared to those that are younger and vaccinated.

My point is that we have enough real world results to prove that its not good policy to discriminate against the unvaccinated, we only have evidence to support that its a really good idea for most adults to get vaccinated. I think its poor form to make law based on hope and not evidence.
 
watfly said:
I don't necessarily disagree with you, it's likely not the best data, that's why I said window. It's only an indication that the vaccinated get infected at a material rate, and not a conclusive study. However, I haven't found (although I suspect there is) anywhere else where someone has attempted to make the comparison. I agree that you have to break it out between pre-vax, post-vax, Alpha, Delta and Omicron time periods. My suspicion is that for Omicron the rate of vaccinated infection is relatively high even in relation to the unvaccinated (its just that contagious). You also have to believe that behavior outside of being vaccinated influences these numbers as well. You would expect those at older ages (ie higher risk) who are vaccinated to also engage in less "risky" behavior as compared to those that are younger and vaccinated.

My point is that we have enough real world results to prove that its not good policy to discriminate against the unvaccinated, we only have evidence to support that its a really good idea for most adults to get vaccinated. I think its poor form to make law based on hope and not evidence.
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The data is fine. You just need to not mix time frames.

A narrow delta window gets you a consistent 65-80% reduction across age groups. Kind of what team panic expected.

The narrow Omicron window puts it at a huge (79%) reduction for 65+, and a moderate ( 30-35%) reduction for 18-49 and 50-64. And almost no reduction at all for 12-17. 12%. I chose 1/9-1/16.

I have no idea what is behind the age dependency. It only shows up Omicron. You have very robust protection for 65+, and a minimal impact on 12-17. Same virus, same vaccine. Completely different results.

No sense in declaring a reason yet. Could be medical (vax works differently in kids?), or it could be environmental (transmission is different in crowded indoor places like schools?). Above my pay grade anyway.
 
GoldenGate said:
The alt right crowd can't handle it when others use their tactic of insulting people against them. It's no wonder their snowflakey children are too emotionally feeble to wear masks at school.

You do a disservice to everyone by trying to have honest conversation with people who are not willing to engage in honest conversation. It only gives them and others the impression that their beliefs and opinions are anything more than an absolute embarrassment and a joke. In the last few days you have seen: (1) the self-proclaimed "serious legal scholar" Grace T. cite a twitter post to support her anti-mask agenda, although the attached study attached related to the unique situation in Catalonia, Spain and, more importantly, acknowledged two American studies (which she blithely ignores of course) about America's situation which show that wearing masks substantially reduces transmission here; (2) clown boy soccersc citing an article he claims shows vaccines aren't important in schools, although the article itself says exactly the opposite (to which he rationalizes that his inability to understand what words mean is "cherry picking"), and although he ignores (yet again) your point and the fact that the study also undermines his anti-mask position (actual cherry picking in other words); (3) desert cactus claiming NZ is doing a terrible job with Covid-19 while AZ is going bigly great with policies that kill more people of Covid on a typical day than NZ has had die of Covid in two freakin' years; (4) multiple anti-vaxxers/maskers and conspiracy theorists minimizing studies that establish Covid-19 was not created in a Wuhan lab to reduce population, because they haven't been "peer reviewed", but who then turn around and cite twitter and Tik tok instead; (5) their blatantly racist anti-vax/mask friend claiming in another thread that the U.S. has 27 super, duper secret biological weapons plants in the Ukraine where they're also hiding Hillary's emails about her secret lasagna recipe; and (6) all of them conveniently ignoring their biggest anti-vax/mask proponents crush and the racist, who remind everyone daily which side has the whackadoos.

Some day you will understand that you can't reason with people like this. Humiliating them is the only way to get them to take off their viking hats and face paint, and resign themselves to staying in their lane, which is the (intellectually) slow one.
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Do you sit there and log off one account the nlog back on to the other to respond to yourself? or do you simply have two computers logged into both your accounts? Then you respond to your own post to get validation...lonely world you live in
 
soccersc said:
Do you sit there and log off one account the nlog back on to the other to respond to yourself? or do you simply have two computers logged into both your accounts? Then you respond to your own post to get validation...lonely world you live in
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I understand why you and your friends don't want to talk about all the studies you cite to "support" the exact opposite of what they actually say. It's pretty humiliating for sure. I do like how you claimed that words don't mean what they mean because "cherry picking". Again, I think you'll get a lot more traction from your fellow nutters if you stick to pulling pond scum out of deeper, darker parts of the web instead of trying to tell people that left means right and up means down. Even the most brain addled of your kind can figure out what words mean if they ever chose to read them.
 
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