Vaccine

Grace T. said:
a. this doesn't help you though mandate it with kids, the under 30, or people who have had it before because their risk is negligible.
b. if keeping people out of the hospital is the standard, then if you go down that road, why not mandate exercise for the obesse, what a diabetic can eat, smoking, people to take needed medicine that keeps them out of the hospital.
c. it's especially not appropriate in the United States. We've had areas that have come pretty close to hospital collapse but no where have we actually had them collapse (some countries, like the Czech Republic, have had such a collapse). And if that's the standard, you should be looking at the same every flu season. Hospitals don't carry a whole lot of excess capacity....it's not profitable...that was the result of the consulting wave (which my elder brother did some work on way back when) in the late 1990s. And before you say single payer...it's the same for the NIH...to remain on budget they did the same thing as part of the Labour reforms of the 90s.
Click to expand...
p.s. if hospital capacity really is something we are concerned with one of the big things clogging up the ERs is drug overdose. If you aren't mandating forced treatment including of the homeless, you aren't concerned with hospital capacity at all.
 
Grace T. said:
a. this doesn't help you though mandate it with kids, the under 30, or people who have had it before because their risk is negligible.
b. if keeping people out of the hospital is the standard, then if you go down that road, why not mandate exercise for the obesse, what a diabetic can eat, smoking, people to take needed medicine that keeps them out of the hospital.
c. it's especially not appropriate in the United States. We've had areas that have come pretty close to hospital collapse but no where have we actually had them collapse (some countries, like the Czech Republic, have had such a collapse). And if that's the standard, you should be looking at the same every flu season. Hospitals don't carry a whole lot of excess capacity....it's not profitable...that was the result of the consulting wave (which my elder brother did some work on way back when) in the late 1990s. And before you say single payer...it's the same for the NIH...to remain on budget they did the same thing as part of the Labour reforms of the 90s.
Click to expand...

Grace, read this out loud at least five times: NorCalDad is not arguing for mandates. Your staunch anti-mandate stance forces you to argue against vaccines. It's quite the bind to be in. The amount of mental gymnastics you have to do must be literally mind boggling. I'm arguing against your loosely put together arguments against vaccines. It's those opinions I take issue with.

So you're saying our healthcare system is broken? Or at the very least goes against the grain of capitalism? Please...go on.
 
NorCalDad said:
Grace, read this out loud at least five times: NorCalDad is not arguing for mandates. Your staunch anti-mandate stance forces you to argue against vaccines. It's quite the bind to be in. The amount of mental gymnastics you have to do must be literally mind boggling. I'm arguing against your loosely put together arguments against vaccines. It's those opinions I take issue with.

So you're saying our healthcare system is broken? Or at the very least goes against the grain of capitalism? Please...go on.
Click to expand...
Didn't I say you'd pull out the same tired canard? The NHS has the same issue....most of the western hospital systems reformed in the 90s as a result of a consulting push from some of the big consulting companies to cut back excess capacity. Whether private (US/Canada) or government (NHS) run, western hospitals don't have the same excess capacity they used to.....profit or budget it's all the same.

p.s. if you are not arguing for mandates, why'd you point out "anti-mandates"....which is why I raised the point....if you hadn't, I wouldn't have. Seems you aren't sure if you are coming or going.
 
NorCalDad said:
I mean I think the piece that always goes missing in these conversations from the anti-mandate folks is the vaccine is indeed helping keep our hospitals from filling up. When hospitals fill up, people die. I mean the great Donald Trump said the same thing. So to say it's ineffective is missing the mark pretty much entirely.
Click to expand...
I said its ineffective at preventing community spread. That's plainly obvious when you look at what's happening. For example, in the NHL with 100% vaccinated and just last week alone with over 100 in Covid protocol. I'm all ears. What's your evidence that the vaccine prevents community spread in the real world (i.e. not some experts opinion of what has happened in the lab)? I have plenty examples of where it hasn't.

I never said it wasn't effective at keeping you out of the hospital, in fact, I said its very effective. However, my position has always been from the kids' standpoint and they're not remotely close to overwhelming hospitals, vaccinated or not. Whether you're vociferously anti-mandate, but pro vaxx, or passively anti-mandate, but pro-vaxx is a difference without a distinction when it comes to the overwhelming hospitals theory (which is a valid issue). So it seems were on the same page, but maybe just different paragraphs.

Also therapeutics are very effective at keeping you out of the hospital if treated early, how many times have you heard that from leadership? Being in good shape also keeps you out of the hospital. There is more than one way to skin this cat. The government shouldn't be forcing you choose the medical treatment that they prefer.
 
Grace T. said:
It's well know Fauci's vision and hope was to get a vaccine for HIV. It's even in that Disney plus film on him. It's his white whale, and it's a shame (for all of us) he never got it. It's not a criticism of him since it's great that we even have COVID vaccines (no matter how imperfect they are)....but it is an observation that when you are a hammer (immunologist) everything is a nail (vaccine).,
Click to expand...

I don't have that limited vision of things. It's well known that Fauci supported the use of AZT against strong opposition, but that doesn't mean he gave up on the search for a vaccine.

And this --

www.nih.gov

Experimental mRNA HIV vaccine safe, shows promise in animals

NIH scientists developed vaccine platform.
www.nih.gov www.nih.gov
 
Grace T. said:
p.s. if hospital capacity really is something we are concerned with one of the big things clogging up the ERs is drug overdose. If you aren't mandating forced treatment including of the homeless, you aren't concerned with hospital capacity at all.
Click to expand...

You're comparing drug use dependency to someone unwilling to get a vaccine? Your arguments make absolutely no sense.

And like clockwork you're over simplifying an incredibly complex issue: https://www.npr.org/2021/03/12/9760...-struggle-with-overdose-spike-during-pandemic
 
NorCalDad said:
Grace, read this out loud at least five times: NorCalDad is not arguing for mandates. Your staunch anti-mandate stance forces you to argue against vaccines. It's quite the bind to be in. The amount of mental gymnastics you have to do must be literally mind boggling. I'm arguing against your loosely put together arguments against vaccines. It's those opinions I take issue with.

So you're saying our healthcare system is broken? Or at the very least goes against the grain of capitalism? Please...go on.
Click to expand...

I have hope that someday she may realize that posting things that boneheads tell her just may eventually make her look like a bonehead yourself.
 
NorCalDad said:
You're comparing drug use dependency to someone unwilling to get a vaccine? Your arguments make absolutely no sense.

And like clockwork you're over simplifying an incredibly complex issue: https://www.npr.org/2021/03/12/9760...-struggle-with-overdose-spike-during-pandemic
Click to expand...


Errr...it doesn't make sense because you went down the particular rabbit hole or arguing for vaccine mandates to preserve hospital capacity. You can't make that argument and then handwave the other concerns away. You can't go through the looking glass and then complain that cards walking around like people and talking cats don't make sense....your act of going through the looking glass already got you there.
 
espola said:
I have hope that someday she may realize that posting things that boneheads tell her just may eventually make her look like a bonehead yourself.
Click to expand...

I have hope that someday you might realize that you actually are lost and have a comprehension issues and put on those glasses everyone keeps telling you to wear.

"limited vision of things" :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
 
Grace T. said:
Didn't I say you'd pull out the same tired canard? The NHS has the same issue....most of the western hospital systems reformed in the 90s as a result of a consulting push from some of the big consulting companies to cut back excess capacity. Whether private (US/Canada) or government (NHS) run, western hospitals don't have the same excess capacity they used to.....profit or budget it's all the same.

p.s. if you are not arguing for mandates, why'd you point out "anti-mandates"....which is why I raised the point....if you hadn't, I wouldn't have. Seems you aren't sure if you are coming or going.
Click to expand...

The center of your argument in this entire thread has been about mandates, and your disapproval of them, Just because I reference that center as being "anti-mandate" does not mean I am suddenly pro-mandate. I'm arguing against the basis of which you argue against mandates -- which flies in the face of anything logical.
 
NorCalDad said:
The center of your argument in this entire thread has been about mandates, and your disapproval of them, Just because I reference that center as being "anti-mandate" does not mean I am suddenly pro-mandate. I'm arguing against the basis of which you argue against mandates -- which flies in the face of anything logical.
Click to expand...

Errr...hate to tell you this, but you've bound yourself into quite a pretzel. On the one hand, you say you are anti-mandate. But YOU were the one that raised the hospital argument (not I) which is a pro-mandate argument. I pointed out to you why that argument didn't make sense. Which YOU then claim flies in the face of anything logical, when it is a response to the argument YOU made, which YOU claim you aren't really making at all.

Pretzel. Seriously, if you are anti-mandate, let's hear your argument about being anti-mandate. Why even bring up the canard about the hospitals?
 
Grace T. said:
Errr...it doesn't make sense because you went down the particular rabbit hole or arguing for vaccine mandates to preserve hospital capacity. You can't make that argument and then handwave the other concerns away. You can't go through the looking glass and then complain that cards walking around like people and talking cats don't make sense....your act of going through the looking glass already got you there.
Click to expand...

My god. When did I ever say I was arguing for mandates? I'm arguing that people should take the vaccine because it is safe to do so and that they do indeed help. Nowhere do I ever make a case for mandates. The basis for your argument goes against what I'm arguing, and I'm sure many others that are here.
 
Grace T. said:
Errr...hate to tell you this, but you've bound yourself into quite a pretzel. On the one hand, you say you are anti-mandate. But YOU were the one that raised the hospital argument (not I) which is a pro-mandate argument. I pointed out to you why that argument didn't make sense. Which YOU then claim flies in the face of anything logical, when it is a response to the argument YOU made, which YOU claim you aren't really making at all.

Pretzel. Seriously, if you are anti-mandate, let's hear your argument about being anti-mandate. Why even bring up the canard about the hospitals?
Click to expand...

Holy jeebus. "But YOU were the one that raised the hospital argument (not I) which is a pro-mandate argument". What in bloody hell kind of debate voodoo are you using here? When did the pro-mandate people get a monopoly on the simple fact that less vaccinated people land in the hospital? Why are they the only ones who can point that out?
 
NorCalDad said:
My god. When did I ever say I was arguing for mandates? I'm arguing that people should take the vaccine because it is safe to do so and that they do indeed help. Nowhere do I ever make a case for mandates. The basis for your argument goes against what I'm arguing, and I'm sure many others that are here.
Click to expand...
a. "I think that the piece that is missing from these anti-mandate folks is that the vaccines are indeed helping" keep hospitals from being overwhelmed. You should just admit you misspoke then and didn't mean "antimandate folks". because
b. few of us are arguing that folks shouldn't take the vaccine. We are arguing it should be a personal choice. and
c. for some people (notably children, men under 30) particular vaccines or getting vaccinated may not be warranted because their risk is so miniscule they won't clog up the hospitals.
 
NorCalDad said:
Holy jeebus. "But YOU were the one that raised the hospital argument (not I) which is a pro-mandate argument". What in bloody hell kind of debate voodoo are you using here? When did the pro-mandate people get a monopoly on the simple fact that less vaccinated people land in the hospital? Why are they the only ones who can point that out?
Click to expand...

a. Because you were the one that called out the "anti-mandate" folks.
b. It's not all people....it's certain people....going around vaccinating all kids (some may very well need vaccination) is not doing much for your hospital capacity. Vaccinating everyone over 40 yeah absolutely good idea, but the boosters may not do much. Vaccinating and boosting everyone over 60 or 70, absolutely.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top