Vaccine

[Grace T.]

So all the billions (trillions?) of virus particles existing in Japan (each of which is an independent possible source of mutations) evolved down the same path?

where did I say that? I specifically said it's not likely to even hold up with COVID because omicron is going to get there, undoing the viral collapse (if that's what even happened) that occurred. I acknowledge that it's a possibility, not that it's a universal truth. again, that comprehension thing is eluding you.

 

[Grace T.]

Your argument is that the virus in Japan ran out of productive mutations, but the virus in other countries did not?

What a fascinating theory. It is bat shit crazy, but fascinating.

Not my argument. That Japanese epidemiologist. I don't have the chops to evaluate whether its bat shit crazy or not. And even he admitted it's probably an evolutionary fluke.

The reason YOU wouldn't like him is the explanation from his study as to why initial COVID didn't take too much of a hold in Asia is prior immunity to other coronaviruses.

 

[Grace T.]

It took you a lot of words to get around to it, but you essentially agreed that the right wing media helped cause the low vax rate in right wing areas.

Basic case of decent people being misled by their institutions. Except, in this case, it was the right wing talk show hosts who did the misleading.

Yes, I think they helped. But no, I don't think the explanation is as simplistic as you make it out to be. Any more than the left wing media caused African Americans to be skeptical of the vaccine. World is much more complicated than you want it to be (you see it even when you defend the models, which is why they fail).

 

[EvilGoalie 21]

Yes and the other argument is that it tries to recast its targeting strategy but fails…collapsing it’s ability to reproduce. I put it inartfully, but that’s what they in essence think has happened in Japan where covid collapsed unexpectedly even though seasonally it’s busting at the seams in South Korea.

For the virus, doesn't work that way. The only selective pressure so to speak is for bigger and faster. Natural selection is like a D1 soccer coach on a white plastic folding chair. consider genetically altered sterile mosquitos for example. the mosquitos aren't going to breed up sterility on their own. Makes no sense. Have to engineer it up and then flood the zone. same thing with the virus, it's not going to select for something that causes it to collapse. Doesn't mean such a combination of mutations is not possible, in fact most mutations are detrimental. Just means no way to drive such mutations forward in a larger population.

all this "unexpected" its up here, its down there is a few new emergent variants sloshing around from place to place globe with 6-10 month periodicity based on the timing of previous waves, vaccination campaigns, the waning of first round immunity in terms of ciculating Ab titers, all kinds of stuff. Once that periodicity settles down people will stop paying attention.

 

[crush]

Yes, I think they helped. But no, I don't think the explanation is as simplistic as you make it out to be. Any more than the left wing media caused African Americans to be skeptical of the vaccine. World is much more complicated than you want it to be (you see it even when you defend the models, which is why they fail).

I can say with certainty most parents I know WHO got the jab are NOT having their precious kiddos get jabbed. it's one thing to take one for the team, it's another to sacrifice your child for the team. We will ALL find out what this was all about. Let's all be patient and not overreact. The Military will sort it all out and not the courts. Everyone has a little or a lot of dirt on them. NSA has all the cell phones recorded, all text and emails captured real time. Drones and satellite are everywhere so no one escapes this game. Revelations was clear that everything someone has done is recorded. NSA has it all. Do good you guys and good will come to you. Do evil and you will live with evil. Simple.

 

[espola]

So you are just guessing then.

A question to ask you is why is the group with the lowest vax rate one that is the most reliable D voting block? IE blacks?

You just don't hear or read in the right side press anti vax sentiments/stories. Pretty much to a T they will all say get vaxxed.

They will argue strongly against mandates and other silly gov intrusions into life.

To be honest the only side that did express concern about the vax came from D politicians in the run up to the last presidential election. One could also find stories from the left side expressing skepticism about trumps vaccines.

The vast vast majority of the population has no real risk. I think many people look at that fact and determine what they want to do vaxx wise.

Throughout the country the high risk groups have been vaxxed at high rates. In other words the people at risk have made their choice.

At this point who cares? People have decided whether they want to get vaxxed or not.

Time to move on.

The US Black population has a higher vaccination rate than the average of the counties that supported t in 2020.

 

[espola]

where did I say that? I specifically said it's not likely to even hold up with COVID because omicron is going to get there, undoing the viral collapse (if that's what even happened) that occurred. I acknowledge that it's a possibility, not that it's a universal truth. again, that comprehension thing is eluding you.

I get it -- it's not your theory, it was discussed here last week, and what's on second.

 

[Grace T.]

For the virus, doesn't work that way. The only selective pressure so to speak is for bigger and faster. Natural selection is like a D1 soccer coach on a white plastic folding chair. consider genetically altered sterile mosquitos for example. the mosquitos aren't going to breed up sterility on their own. Makes no sense. Have to engineer it up and then flood the zone. same thing with the virus, it's not going to select for something that causes it to collapse. Doesn't mean such a combination of mutations is not possible, in fact most mutations are detrimental. Just means no way to drive such mutations forward in a larger population.

all this "unexpected" its up here, its down there is a few new emergent variants sloshing around from place to place globe with 6-10 month periodicity based on the timing of previous waves, vaccination campaigns, the waning of first round immunity in terms of ciculating Ab titers, all kinds of stuff. Once that periodicity settles down people will stop paying attention.

Again, I don't have the chops to evaluate the Japanese's theory. As best I understand it, it's like a computer code and eventually an error creeps in that causes the program to fail.

The problem the Japanese are trying to solve is why COVID collapsed in Japan (have you looked at the case count...it's pretty remarkable). It's not seasonality....south korea and China are in the same seasonal regions yet are having explosions right now. It's not everyone infected or vaccinated...vaccine rates are o.k. but countries that have done better such as Gibraltar, Ireland, Singapore, Iceland and England are dealing with delta outbreaks. It might be that the Japanese put a lot of restrictions on their borders after the Olympics but that didn't help in Australia or NZ....the Delta showed even 1 escaped case is enough to seed a country. It's not masks and NPIS....masks have failed to contain the outbreak in the rest of Asia and Japan is in the process of reopening. It could be that the Japanese are superimmune and the Delta went through the population already that was vulnerable....the authors also touched on prior Asian immunity. But this is the only country which is in season which does not have a very high level of natural immunity (e.g. India) where this has occurred, hence the out of the bo x theories.

I don't think your evolutionary analogy does what you think it does. Nature is replete with examples where species may have adapted for one reason (e.g. sexual appeal) but those evolutions turn out to be detrimental to the species survival. Or the conditions they are adapted to change. Nature is replete with evolutionary dead ends. I get your point, but this part of your argument isn't a very good analogy.

 

[Grace T.]

I get it -- it's not your theory, it was discussed here last week, and what's on second.

"Oh Magoo, you've done it again!"

Shall we waltz?

 

[EvilGoalie 21]

I agree, the fear virus is taking my pals hostage. No amount of boosters can save you. Nothing can stop what is coming evil. God brought us to learn how to live with knowing good & evil. I always saw it as "good vs evil." No no no no, I had it all wrong. God wanted us to eat of the tree of good & evil. He even told Adam "when you eat of it....." meaning, you will eat it because I want you to. He even brought Eve to help him eat of the tree of good and evil. Still, that wasn't enough so he brought the craft serpent to "help" Eve eat it. We had it all backwards and the way the English language is used to trick people, well then you can take words and twist them the way you them to be. Q. Why would God put the tree of good and evil in the garden of eden if he didnt want us to know what he knows, which is also good and evil. It's a choice P.S. I didnt ask to be born on this planet. I was brought here. My wife thinks I volunteered to join this mission. I know one thing. I pick Good and see Evil as all it is. It's just shadow really. We like to come up with fearful names. I hope that helps you out today as the country falls a part.

Interesting. Little story. Haven't thought about this in awhile. I'm like 6 back in the little patch of paradise where I grew up. Sunday school. Sunday school should be for all the warm and fuzzy stuff I think. But here's this dude laying down full blown Revelations on us little kids. Breaking seals, bowls all of it. I thought seal meant animal and starting crying. Seemed pointless and cruel. Got that guy pretty excited. Got right in my face yelling and stuff. Distinctly remember smelling the booze. Looking back, once I hit 18 and had grown my hair out a bit I should have tracked him down and administered a little earthly justice.

But I keep looking for it. Q shaman kind of dude pops out of a manhole with a magnet and all the vaxxed people go tumbling end over end, fingers clawing at the pavement into the pit. Then a plague with a virulent form of scabies and everyone chomping ivermectin comes up smelling roses. Counter-acting postive and negative selections always give you what want. Things would quiet down a lot I think. Maybe I'd have time to set up a little Uno's garden somewhere.

But if I do get back to my little patch of paradise I'm definitely going to get me a dart gun like Jim had on Wild Kingdom, get my Q-beam, and vaxx me some deer. Public service. And badgers. If this virus gets into badgers, whatever comes back out will be really really bad.

 

[espola]

"Oh Magoo, you've done it again!"

Shall we waltz?

I m just pleased to see that you have conceded my initial point, that "run out of mutations" is coocoo science.

 

[Grace T.]

I can say with certainty most parents I know WHO got the jab are NOT having their precious kiddos get jabbed. it's one thing to take one for the team, it's another to sacrifice your child for the team. We will ALL find out what this was all about. Let's all be patient and not overreact. The Military will sort it all out and not the courts. Everyone has a little or a lot of dirt on them. NSA has all the cell phones recorded, all text and emails captured real time. Drones and satellite are everywhere so no one escapes this game. Revelations was clear that everything someone has done is recorded. NSA has it all. Do good you guys and good will come to you. Do evil and you will live with evil. Simple.

One of the variables is if it's true the omicron is not stopped by the jab. If not, the case to vaccinate children collapses. Ny just mandated it for kids 5 and up in public spaces. Gonna be a problem considering its a tourism city.

 

[dad4]

Yes, I think they helped. But no, I don't think the explanation is as simplistic as you make it out to be. Any more than the left wing media caused African Americans to be skeptical of the vaccine. World is much more complicated than you want it to be (you see it even when you defend the models, which is why they fail).

I am sure left wing news reports played a role in African American mistrust of vaccines. How many thousand reports mention the Tuskegee syphillis experiment? How many reports mention any other medical advances which benefit Africans or African Americans?

The Tuskegee study ended in disgrace a half century ago. It is an excellent cautionary tale, and should not be forgotten. But talking about Tuskegee without mentioning polio shots and malaria nets is extremely misleading. It focuses on the 600 who were hurt and ignores the tens of millions who were helped.

But, if you have a story to tell about white racism against blacks, Tuskegee helps you tell that story. So the left keeps it on the front burner.

If they want to talk about medical programs that affected black people, they should discuss the polio eradication program in Africa. It was over a million times as large as the Tuskegee experiment, and more recent. You’d think it would warrant a mention now and then.

 

[crush]

 

[Grace T.]

I am sure left wing news reports played a role in African American mistrust of vaccines. How many thousand reports mention the Tuskegee syphillis experiment? How many reports mention any other medical advances which benefit Africans or African Americans?

The Tuskegee study ended in disgrace a half century ago. It is an excellent cautionary tale, and should not be forgotten. But talking about Tuskegee without mentioning polio shots and malaria nets is extremely misleading. It focuses on the 600 who were hurt and ignores the tens of millions who were helped.

But, if you have a story to tell about white racism against blacks, Tuskegee helps you tell that story. So the left keeps it on the front burner.

If they want to talk about medical programs that affected black people, they should discuss the polio eradication program in Africa. It was over a million times as large as the Tuskegee experiment, and more recent. You’d think it would warrant a mention now and then.

Well we both agree then the media is garbage. That's something.....

 

[EvilGoalie 21]

Or the conditions they are adapted to change.

That's very different from what you said. Conditions changed.....wonder what kind of changes those might possibly be. Yes, i've looked at Japan. Yes, it came down just like FLA, just like everywhere else where it comes up it comes down. Some new kind of thing does not need to be invented everytime that happens, no matter what your bloggers say. But have fun with it. Although I watched one of those you linked up until the point where the second bro came on and started talking about sleeping on somebodies couch. I thought that was kind of weird.

 

[crush]

One of the variables is if it's true the omicron is not stopped by the jab. If not, the case to vaccinate children collapses. Ny just mandated it for kids 5 and up in public spaces. Gonna be a problem considering its a tourism city.

Plus that liar is leaving in a few weeks.

 

[Grace T.]

I m just pleased to see that you have conceded my initial point, that "run out of mutations" is coocoo science.

I told you I don't have the chops to determine whether the Japanese are right and wrong. I have no opinion whether it is coocoo science or not. My only point is that it is a theory being discussed by experts (which isn't being an "expert" the entire threshold for dad4's arguments).

 

[espola]

Again, I don't have the chops to evaluate the Japanese's theory. As best I understand it, it's like a computer code and eventually an error creeps in that causes the program to fail.

The problem the Japanese are trying to solve is why COVID collapsed in Japan (have you looked at the case count...it's pretty remarkable). It's not seasonality....south korea and China are in the same seasonal regions yet are having explosions right now. It's not everyone infected or vaccinated...vaccine rates are o.k. but countries that have done better such as Gibraltar, Ireland, Singapore, Iceland and England are dealing with delta outbreaks. It might be that the Japanese put a lot of restrictions on their borders after the Olympics but that didn't help in Australia or NZ....the Delta showed even 1 escaped case is enough to seed a country. It's not masks and NPIS....masks have failed to contain the outbreak in the rest of Asia and Japan is in the process of reopening. It could be that the Japanese are superimmune and the Delta went through the population already that was vulnerable....the authors also touched on prior Asian immunity. But this is the only country which is in season which does not have a very high level of natural immunity (e.g. India) where this has occurred, hence the out of the bo x theories.

I don't think your evolutionary analogy does what you think it does. Nature is replete with examples where species may have adapted for one reason (e.g. sexual appeal) but those evolutions turn out to be detrimental to the species survival. Or the conditions they are adapted to change. Nature is replete with evolutionary dead ends. I get your point, but this part of your argument isn't a very good analogy.

Two simple analogies were offered up by Dr. Thwaites in my SDSU genetics course -- xerox machines and the I8/I5 interchange. If you copy a document, and then use the copy to produce the next copy, recycling the fresh copy each time, eventually the reproduction will be unusable. As for the freeway interchange - the reason the ramps loop around in such a tortuous manner is because they couldn't tear up I5 for a couple of years to build a rational interchange (or in biological terms, no mutation will survive to reproduce if the mutation causes the death of the organism).

Dr. Thwaites had a good personal history (the source of his interest in genetics) because he was colorblind and traced the history of colorblindness back through his family tree.

 

[Grace T.]

That's very different from what you said. Conditions changed.....wonder what kind of changes those might possibly be. Yes, i've looked at Japan. Yes, it came down just like FLA, just like everywhere else where it comes up it comes down. Some new kind of thing does not need to be invented everytime that happens, no matter what your bloggers say. But have fun with it. Although I watched one of those you linked up until the point where the second bro came on and started talking about sleeping on somebodies couch. I thought that was kind of weird.

Florida is easily explained, though by the seasonal conditions.

Japan is not. There is no easy explanation for the Japanese collapses (as I've run through), which is why they are thinking out of the box.

I supposed one possible explanation is it's we really don't have an understanding of the seasonal conditions and Japan is really out of season, but as far as I'm aware no one has been able to explain that mechanism.

 

[crush]

Interesting. Little story. Haven't thought about this in awhile. I'm like 6 back in the little patch of paradise where I grew up. Sunday school. Sunday school should be for all the warm and fuzzy stuff I think. But here's this dude laying down full blown Revelations on us little kids. Breaking seals, bowls all of it. I thought seal meant animal and starting crying. Seemed pointless and cruel. Got that guy pretty excited. Got right in my face yelling and stuff. Distinctly remember smelling the booze. Looking back, once I hit 18 and had grown my hair out a bit I should have tracked him down and administered a little earthly justice.

But I keep looking for it. Q shaman kind of dude pops out of a manhole with a magnet and all the vaxxed people go tumbling end over end, fingers clawing at the pavement into the pit. Then a plague with a virulent form of scabies and everyone chomping ivermectin comes up smelling roses. Counter-acting postive and negative selections always give you what want. Things would quiet down a lot I think. Maybe I'd have time to set up a little Uno's garden somewhere.

But if I do get back to my little patch of paradise I'm definitely going to get me a dart gun like Jim had on Wild Kingdom, get my Q-beam, and vaxx me some deer. Public service. And badgers. If this virus gets into badgers, whatever comes back out will be really really bad.

That is serious church trauma bro. I'm sorry to hear about Sunday school classes. Disturbing..