Vaccine

[Bruddah IZ]

Surgeons are trained to think of masks as PPE. Make sure the patient does not infect the doctor. Make sure the doctor doesn’t place germs into the patient’s open wound. Important stuff. Just not relevant to the question of masks for going to the grocery store.

Asking a surgeon about epidemiology is no more helpful than asking an epidemiologist to remove your appendix. Each has their own area of expertise, and neither one knows how to do the other’s job.

When it comes to mask mandates, social distancing, or any other pandemic restriction, what is the limiting principle? Or, putting it differently, under what conditions can we get back to normal? Based on the public health logic currently in vogue, I fear that the answer is never and that we are entering a new regime–the tyranny of tiny risks. --Ian Filmore

 

[crush]

It sounds like we are talking about different issues. The first topic I was following was whether it would be better to get immunity via infection or vaccinations. If given the choice, I would pick developing immunity via vaccines. This should not be a fantasy anymore with the amazing development of efficacious vaccines. When SARS-CoV2 infects cells, it can directly kill them, and it can also fuse cells to their neighbors, like a bunch of smaller bubbles merging together. There's also potential for secondary damage. Either route of exposure can lead to immunity, but one way avoids the damage.

If an individual already has some immunity, then their immune system should be able to try to neutralize viruses that it can recognize when the individual is exposed. If they don't have a robust enough response relative to the virus, then the virus can cause damage. It partly becomes a numbers and timing problem when considering the battle between the virus and the immune system.
The vaccine allows one to develop immunity without damage from infection. That is the point, in addition to not allowing the host to effectively spread the virus. If the virus is limited in it's ability to replicate or spread, the probability of variants emerging that can evade the immune system or that can be more damaging will be lower. Coronaviruses are great at not just mutating but also recombining, and the history of viruses shows that they don't always become more benign over time.

Any public health policy should be well grounded in the current knowledge, but will be necessarily impacted by realities and needs on the ground in their location. For example, Vietnam did an amazing job for quite a while limiting covid in their country. But, they have a robust medical system, quarantine facilities, and a government system that is strict. They also dealt with sars-cov1, and the population readily complies with public health edicts. England will be very different. Policies will also be impacted by what is available. Some locations don't have good access to vaccines, for example, let alone boosters. Some places have very limited medical facilities or staff.

I am not really interested in coming up with a one size fits all solution, because that's not practical or sensible. Sorry to disappoint on that.

Losers use kids as pawns.

Vaccine fanatics are coming for your kids

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[EvilGoalie 21]

it can also fuse cells to their neighbors,

The reason for that is remarkable. Once it binds to the Ace2 receptor, the spike protein of Cov-2 has acquired the ability to allow the virus to efficiently use a mode of cell entry where it directly fuses with the outside of the cell. This is in contrast to other C-viruses which tend to require first being engulfed by the cell prior to membrane penetration. A consequence of viral fusion with the outside of the cell is that residual spike protein remains on the cell surface after viral entry. That spike protein can then interact with the Ace2 receptor on a neighboring cell, leading the two cells to fuse. This appears to greatly contributes to the aveolar tissue disorganization observed in severe covid cases.

 

[Bruddah IZ]

Grace, I was correcting the assumption you made about my reaction to the video. I'm not attacking any person, but I did criticize the video.

As to the question of what is the best policy for governments to pursue? I'm sure that depends on the situation in their particular area. It also depends on what the goals are of the government or other group setting the policy. It's complex, as many on here have discussed.

From the biology side, knowing just how destructive this virus can be once set loose in our bodies and the damage that an infection can lead to, if given a choice, I would not want anyone to get infected. There's also the risk that a variant with a high mortality rate could emerge. No one can know whether this will or won't happen. This, I would advise against choices where the virus is permitted to thrive.

When it comes to mask mandates, social distancing, or any other pandemic restriction, what is the limiting principle? Or, putting it differently, under what conditions can we get back to normal? Based on the public health logic currently in vogue, I fear that the answer is never and that we are entering a new regime–the tyranny of tiny risks.--Ian Filmore

 

[crush]

It's game on folks.

 

[watfly]

The first topic I was following was whether it would be better to get immunity via infection or vaccinations. If given the choice, I would pick developing immunity via vaccines.

As would I and I suspect would the vast majority of the population. No one wants to get sick, very sick possibly, just to have natural immunity.

I am not really interested in coming up with a one size fits all solution, because that's not practical or sensible. Sorry to disappoint on that.

I think that's where most of us are coming from. Unfortunately, those that make policy are trying to force implementation of a one size fits all approach, particularly when it comes to requiring vaccines to participate in certain normal activities. The public doesn't respond very well to "my way or the highway" approach.

 

[crush]

As would I and I suspect would the vast majority of the population. No one wants to get sick, very sick possibly, just to have natural immunity.


I think that's where most of us are coming from. Unfortunately, those that make policy are trying to force implementation of a one size fits all approach, particularly when it comes to requiring vaccines to participate in certain normal activities. The public doesn't respond very well to "my way or the highway" approach.

No they dont. This was the old way of running things in America. Not everyone treated people like shit and did whatever they could to make it to the top, including and not limited to cheating, buying a spot on the team, lying, lying, bribes, blackmail ((fang fang)) or worse. Them days are finally coming to an end. What your seeing right now are the small parts of the snake head squirming around.

 

[Roadrunner]

As would I and I suspect would the vast majority of the population. No one wants to get sick, very sick possibly, just to have natural immunity.


I think that's where most of us are coming from. Unfortunately, those that make policy are trying to force implementation of a one size fits all approach, particularly when it comes to requiring vaccines to participate in certain normal activities. The public doesn't respond very well to "my way or the highway" approach.

Agreed. I get where you are coming from on the question of how to handle (policywise) those who have had covid one or more times and have not been vaccinated. At a practical level, are you advocating for people to be able to meet a vaccine requirement by showing some sort of proof they have had covid? The real issue is wanting everyone to have good immune protection if possible, and then asking what metric or proxy is then useful.

 

[Bruddah IZ]

Meanwhile, all eyes are on Florida, because the media establishment despises Ron DeSantis, but lunatic Washington state just set an all-time record for hospitalizations:

 

[watfly]

Agreed. I get where you are coming from on the question of how to handle (policywise) those who have had covid one or more times and have not been vaccinated. At a practical level, are you advocating for people to be able to meet a vaccine requirement by showing some sort of proof they have had covid? The real issue is wanting everyone to have good immune protection if possible, and then asking what metric or proxy is then useful.

Personally I'm not in favor of having to meet any vaccine requirement for things like having dinner out, or for providing proof of a prior positive Covid test. I can see a good faith argument for requiring vaccines in Healthcare and military, but it's still problematic for me as a blanket approach.

I could be wrong, but it doesn't seem in the past that we've ever mandated or required a vaccine this soon after a vaccine was developed, certainly not before it was FDA approved (apparently Pfizer is coming on Monday). How long after certain vaccines were developed were they required for public education?

The Covid vaccinations are certainly one of the greatest accomplishments in medical history. However, I can appreciate people's skepticism given the pace that Covid information has been changing, sometimes in contradiction to previous information.

 

[Grace T.]

It sounds like we are talking about different issues. The first topic I was following was whether it would be better to get immunity via infection or vaccinations. If given the choice, I would pick developing immunity via vaccines. This should not be a fantasy anymore with the amazing development of efficacious vaccines. When SARS-CoV2 infects cells, it can directly kill them, and it can also fuse cells to their neighbors, like a bunch of smaller bubbles merging together. There's also potential for secondary damage. Either route of exposure can lead to immunity, but one way avoids the damage.

If an individual already has some immunity, then their immune system should be able to try to neutralize viruses that it can recognize when the individual is exposed. If they don't have a robust enough response relative to the virus, then the virus can cause damage. It partly becomes a numbers and timing problem when considering the battle between the virus and the immune system.
The vaccine allows one to develop immunity without damage from infection. That is the point, in addition to not allowing the host to effectively spread the virus. If the virus is limited in it's ability to replicate or spread, the probability of variants emerging that can evade the immune system or that can be more damaging will be lower. Coronaviruses are great at not just mutating but also recombining, and the history of viruses shows that they don't always become more benign over time.

Any public health policy should be well grounded in the current knowledge, but will be necessarily impacted by realities and needs on the ground in their location. For example, Vietnam did an amazing job for quite a while limiting covid in their country. But, they have a robust medical system, quarantine facilities, and a government system that is strict. They also dealt with sars-cov1, and the population readily complies with public health edicts. England will be very different. Policies will also be impacted by what is available. Some locations don't have good access to vaccines, for example, let alone boosters. Some places have very limited medical facilities or staff.

I am not really interested in coming up with a one size fits all solution, because that's not practical or sensible. Sorry to disappoint on that.

Yes we are talking different issues. You are talking about a different question. Neither one of the 2 approaches under discussion is don’t vaccinate. And it’s a fair response re the 3rd world…this is excluding any country without a vaccine response

the issue is the blue state us response and the Uk response are beginning to diverge. Extrapolating a bit here but the blue state is response is ongoing low level npis keeping people from being infected until the booster and maybe delta specific boosters are available. It has no end date for npi restrictions and advocates like Gottlieb readily admit it may be 1-3 more years to normalcy. The uk response is remove almost all restrictions and the booster (except for the most vulnerable) is natural infection. Incidentally that also frees up vaccine doses for use in the 3rd world. The Uk approach means returning to something close like normalcy now. That’s the choice I had asked you to comment on but you seem to prefer friendlier ground of your choosing.

 

[N00B]

I guess zombie life is next. No offense, everything you just wrote makes zero sense but you took it and I'm sure you will live with the consequences. Where I draw the line is when someone fires someone for saying, "NO!!!" or kid is blocked. It's great you know how to make a better bio weapon and all but this thing is one big mess. You and so many listened to Dr. F, a known liar. Bill was in on it with Jeffrey. You do understand that right? Does that make you feel a little nervous what these boys were up to? I forgot to ask. Is Jesus the Lord?

@crush

I’m sorry man… I feel like the older sibling that ruined Santa… you know ‘EvilGoalie 21” by another name.

 

[EvilGoalie 21]

@crush

I’m sorry man… I feel like the older sibling that ruined Santa… you know ‘EvilGoalie 21” by another name.

Well, actually I was just trying to wrap my head around the idea that it's going to be pretty thin under the tree for me this year. What with lyin', cheatin', reading filthy books, working on behalf of know or alleged pedophiles and now apparently unleashing the zombie apocalypse I have a feeling I'm on the Big Guy's naughty list. That's probably not even a complete tally. With a quarter of a year left to go. And here I was hoping for a new PCR machine.

 

[EvilGoalie 21]

And a new pair of goalie gloves that don't have to be transported between games and practice tied down to the outside of the car. I guess I can kiss that goodbye too.

 

[N00B]

And a new pair of goalie gloves that don't have to be transported between games and practice tied down to the outside of the car. I guess I can kiss that goodbye too.

What’s wrong with outside the car? It’s the only thing that works.

 

[EvilGoalie 21]

What’s wrong with outside the car? It’s the only thing that works.

yep. it's like carrying a dead skunk around.

 

[crush]

Well, actually I was just trying to wrap my head around the idea that it's going to be pretty thin under the tree for me this year. What with lyin', cheatin', reading filthy books, working on behalf of know or alleged pedophiles and now apparently unleashing the zombie apocalypse I have a feeling I'm on the Big Guy's naughty list. That's probably not even a complete tally. With a quarter of a year left to go. And here I was hoping for a new PCR machine.

Hahahahaha Evil. I'm trying to find work today and food for next month so keep me in your thoughts. The pressure is on me like no other time in my life. I mean that 100%. As a man, I can;t buy & sell unless I get jabbed. You think this is funny, dont you? I was at Trader Joes yesterday. I'm starting to see regular folks with signs asking for help. This is going to get a lot worse for middle class families and giggle all you want. I know you and the others think this is all fun & games trying to ruin other peoples ability to live. BTW, Hunter is the only one I know who reported to the Big Guy. You will see the truth some day Evil.

 

[crush]

What a wonderful place to live....not!!

NYC vaccination program will require IDs to eat indoors to prevent 'fraud'
New York was the first city in the nation to require such proof of vaccination

"The ID requirement is to help reduce fraud. Venues covered by the vax screening program are required to check ID for those 18+. Checking ID for 12+ is optional. The NYC Covid Safe app allows you to upload a picture of your ID if you don't want to carry it," he added.

 

[crush]

Surgeon general expects more businesses will mandate COVID-19 vaccine after FDA approval

"This is important for a couple of reasons," Murthy said about the FDA approval. "Number one, there were some people who may have been waiting for this, and who may come up in the sense, so to speak, to get vaccinated. So, it may help increase vaccination rates to some extent. But I also think that there are universities and businesses that have been considering putting in vaccine requirements in order to create a safer, a workplace, a learning environment. And I think this announcement from the FDA would likely encourage them and make them feel more comfortable in putting some requirements in place."

I will do my best to look for a way to make a living but I will never get jabbed. My buddy is not doing well you guys. I have first hand eye witness news. Let's see what happens when push comes to shove.

 

[crush]

 

[Desert Hound]

“Few people will ever go broke overestimating the desire among Americans to inflict punishment on their perceived political enemies. But not only will blue-state vax requirements end up disproportionately impacting Democratic-voting minority populations, they will also discourage basic human activity among populations that have already long since been nudged into vaccination.”