Vaccine

[Desert Hound]

There are plenty of GOP (the right) governors and legislatives who are flat out doing the same. The voting and abortion legislation are the obviously examples, with the former having nothing to do with making elections "better" and everything to do with staying in power, and the latter being a cultural rallying cry since the 70s that the GOP doesn't actually want repealed (imo).

Both side are equally guilty.

I 100% agree on the sentiment of "it isn't my biz how you live your life".

Abortion is really the issue you have that is correct relating to many on the right.

The voting issue you are very wrong on.

The left is doing everything it can to bypass any real oversight on voting.

- To require an ID to vote is not voter suppression. Though the dems claim it is.
- Ballot harvesting is not something you want if you want integrity of the vote. And yet it is the left that mainly pushes this. It is ripe for corruption as the case of the R in NC shows an election cycle or 2 ago.
- Mailing out millions of mail in ballots is not a recipe for clean elections. Not long ago both Rep and Dems agreed on this. There is no chain of custody, no proof on who actually fills out, sends in the ballots. For something as vital as voting you dont want millions of ballots just floating around.
- Dems are the ones fighting cleaning up election rolls. If anything one wants the elections rolls to be as accurate as possible. And yet by and large it is the dems that fight this.
- And the most egregious is in this congress the dems have been pushing for basically federal control of the voting process...and with that all their wish lists to minimize oversight.

But back to your original comment. If you look on the push to restrict speech on campus, work, or in entertainment, that push comes today from the left.

If you look to where a group wants to push norms on other groups, today that largely comes from the left.

The one example that holds true for the right and it isnt universal would be abortion. Outside of that what national effort from the right do you see them trying to inflict on the populace at large?

 

[whatithink]

The US is one of the few western countries that believe in college for everyone. Europe specifically tracks people into the arts, academic routes, sports and trades. It's why the futbol academies exist, and why every one else gets rec in Europe. The problem with the European system is that the rich and the well connected play by a different set of rules (in a system that is designed to be more blatantly a meritocracy than ours), and minorities which have not been around the system for a while find themselves falling through the cracks unless they are fortunate enough to be ID'd in the imperfect system (which with our racial issues would be a nightmare to implement here).

I'm pretty sure the various education related posts on this thread, today, highlight the disparity driven by those with versus those without. Its never the same rules for everyone, when those with money can buy or just influence different outcomes.

 

[watfly]

So if everyone did what you think we'd be better off, is that because you know better?

You missed the point entirely. I will do what's best for my family and you do what you think is best for your family and let the consequences follow. It's called choice and as long as it not illegal and infringing on your rights it shouldn't be a problem. I thought the left was pro choice.

 

[Grace T.]

I'm pretty sure the various education related posts on this thread, today, highlight the disparity driven by those with versus those without. Its never the same rules for everyone, when those with money can buy or just influence different outcomes.

That's always been the case though even with the former Soviet Union. I'm not aware of an utopia built anywhere on this planet where money and influence haven't been used to get around a purported meritocracy. The chief difference between Europe and the US, though, is the US believes everyone can be saved through college. Europe doesn't, but provides a more robust social safety net for those that fail. Having toured the suburbs around Paris, however, I'm hard pressed to determine which system is actually better.

 

[watfly]

So if they are "underserved", how do you know that "a traditional education might not be productive for them"? I assume you are correlating the underserved and the ones who could/should go the trade route?

I don't know that, I was just using trades as an example. Trades might work for some and not for others.

 

[whatithink]

Th

Abortion is really the issue you have that is correct relating to many on the right.

The voting issue you are very wrong on.

The left is doing everything it can to bypass any real oversight on voting.

- To require an ID to vote is not voter suppression. Though the dems claim it is.
- Ballot harvesting is not something you want if you want integrity of the vote. And yet it is the left that mainly pushes this. It is ripe for corruption as the case of the R in NC shows an election cycle or 2 ago.
- Mailing out millions of mail in ballots is not a recipe for clean elections. Not long ago both Rep and Dems agreed on this. There is no chain of custody, no proof on who actually fills out, sends in the ballots. For something as vital as voting you dont want millions of ballots just floating around.
- Dems are the ones fighting cleaning up election rolls. If anything one wants the elections rolls to be as accurate as possible. And yet by and large it is the dems that fight this.
- And the most egregious is in this congress the dems have been pushing for basically federal control of the voting process...and with that all their wish lists to minimize oversight.

But back to your original comment. If you look on the push to restrict speech on campus, work, or in entertainment, that push comes today from the left.

If you look to where a group wants to push norms on other groups, today that largely comes from the left.

The one example that holds true for the right and it isnt universal would be abortion. Outside of that what national effort from the right do you see them trying to inflict on the populace at large?

The voting stuff is a solution searching for a problem. There is statistically zero voting fraud in US elections. Its been flogged to death and in a blatantly partisan manner and nothing material has been found. To pursue more stringent controls in something that has zero material problem suggests a different agenda, and a partisan agenda. To your first 3 points

• Ensure everyone gets a free ID to use to vote, if they don't already have a driving license for example - issue them automatically to HS seniors who hit 18, and if not ensure that there is a simple and convenient way to get it done.
• Ensure everyone is registered, you can use the HSs to do this automatically when kids hit 18 and that will get the majority. For everyone else, make sure its a simple process, and that it can be done conveniently, i.e. its a dispersed and accessible
• Make sure that there are polling stations available in sufficient numbers and opened for a sufficient amount of time, lets say 7 days up to and including election day, so that everyone can vote in person - no long lines.

In other words, when I see GOP legislatures looking to enact voting laws, I look at what they are doing to ensure that everyone who may be impacted can easily overcome the new legislation and then I go ... yeah, democracy, shamocracy.

 

[Desert Hound]

The US is one of the few western countries that believe in college for everyone. Europe specifically tracks people into the arts, academic routes, sports and trades. It's why the futbol academies exist, and why every one else gets rec in Europe. The problem with the European system is that the rich and the well connected play by a different set of rules (in a system that is designed to be more blatantly a meritocracy than ours), and minorities which have not been around the system for a while find themselves falling through the cracks unless they are fortunate enough to be ID'd in the imperfect system (which with our racial issues would be a nightmare to implement here).

That is exactly what they do in many of those countries.

Early on they put kids on certain tracks for their careers.

 

[whatithink]

That's always been the case though even with the former Soviet Union. I'm not aware of an utopia built anywhere on this planet where money and influence haven't been used to get around a purported meritocracy. The chief difference between Europe and the US, though, is the US believes everyone can be saved through college. Europe doesn't, but provides a more robust social safety net for those that fail. Having toured the suburbs around Paris, however, I'm hard pressed to determine which system is actually better.

Finnish speeding laws - awesome.

Finland, Home of the $103,000 Speeding Ticket - The Atlantic

For sure, nowhere is a utopia, I wasn't suggesting anywhere is.

 

[Desert Hound]

I must admit, I'm a little disappointed.

I was hoping for more as well. But it caught my eye.

 

[Bruddah IZ]

Sounds like the “conservative” agenda, not that they have the exclusive there, but hypocrisy makes it stick out more.

Stick it back in.

 

[whatithink]

You missed the point entirely. I will do what's best for my family and you do what you think is best for your family and let the consequences follow. It's called choice and as long as it not illegal and infringing on your rights it shouldn't be a problem. I thought the left was pro choice.

Not everyone can make the same choices due to any number of things, socio economic being a prevalent one. I agree with the premise that I can do what I think is best for my family, while recognizing that I have different choices available to me than others.

 

[espola]

Th

The voting stuff is a solution searching for a problem. There is statistically zero voting fraud in US elections. Its been flogged to death and in a blatantly partisan manner and nothing material has been found. To pursue more stringent controls in something that has zero material problem suggests a different agenda, and a partisan agenda. To your first 3 points

• Ensure everyone gets a free ID to use to vote, if they don't already have a driving license for example - issue them automatically to HS seniors who hit 18, and if not ensure that there is a simple and convenient way to get it done.
• Ensure everyone is registered, you can use the HSs to do this automatically when kids hit 18 and that will get the majority. For everyone else, make sure its a simple process, and that it can be done conveniently, i.e. its a dispersed and accessible
• Make sure that there are polling stations available in sufficient numbers and opened for a sufficient amount of time, lets say 7 days up to and including election day, so that everyone can vote in person - no long lines.

In other words, when I see GOP legislatures looking to enact voting laws, I look at what they are doing to ensure that everyone who may be impacted can easily overcome the new legislation and then I go ... yeah, democracy, shamocracy.

I have proposed in the past a compromise on the voter ID issue. Allow everyone who is currently registered to vote as is, but require all new voters to get an acceptable ID.

 

[Grace T.]

Th

The voting stuff is a solution searching for a problem. There is statistically zero voting fraud in US elections. Its been flogged to death and in a blatantly partisan manner and nothing material has been found. To pursue more stringent controls in something that has zero material problem suggests a different agenda, and a partisan agenda. To your first 3 points

• Ensure everyone gets a free ID to use to vote, if they don't already have a driving license for example - issue them automatically to HS seniors who hit 18, and if not ensure that there is a simple and convenient way to get it done.
• Ensure everyone is registered, you can use the HSs to do this automatically when kids hit 18 and that will get the majority. For everyone else, make sure its a simple process, and that it can be done conveniently, i.e. its a dispersed and accessible
• Make sure that there are polling stations available in sufficient numbers and opened for a sufficient amount of time, lets say 7 days up to and including election day, so that everyone can vote in person - no long lines.

In other words, when I see GOP legislatures looking to enact voting laws, I look at what they are doing to ensure that everyone who may be impacted can easily overcome the new legislation and then I go ... yeah, democracy, shamocracy.

"statistically zero" is not a useful concept when it comes to voting. While up until 2020 (I point out 2020 arguendo because it's kind of irrelevant to my point whether wide spread mail voting was secure enough) we could be reasonably certain there wasn't systemic widespread or coordinated voting fraud across the system, we also know that voting irregularities have happened in the past in the United States (there have been periodic convictions for voting fraud, audits have found double votes or dead people voting, and there's been historical incidents such as Illinois and the JFK election). Given that some elections (whether the house elections determined in 2020 with a margin less than 100 votes, the 2000 Presidential election with Florida decided by less than 1000 votes, or my friend's school board race determined by less than 40 votes) are so close, "statistically zero" is not a useful concept when it comes to voting fraud.

I like your first two ideas (you can do it when kids have to register for the draft....I personally think women registering is long over due)...your 3rd is more problematic because I don't like early voting....some facts on the ground could change in the 7 day period....I wouldn't be opposed to a 2 or 3 or even 4 day period including a day over the weekend.

 

[Desert Hound]

Th

The voting stuff is a solution searching for a problem. There is statistically zero voting fraud in US elections. Its been flogged to death and in a blatantly partisan manner and nothing material has been found. To pursue more stringent controls in something that has zero material problem suggests a different agenda, and a partisan agenda. To your first 3 points

• Ensure everyone gets a free ID to use to vote, if they don't already have a driving license for example - issue them automatically to HS seniors who hit 18, and if not ensure that there is a simple and convenient way to get it done.
• Ensure everyone is registered, you can use the HSs to do this automatically when kids hit 18 and that will get the majority. For everyone else, make sure its a simple process, and that it can be done conveniently, i.e. its a dispersed and accessible
• Make sure that there are polling stations available in sufficient numbers and opened for a sufficient amount of time, lets say 7 days up to and including election day, so that everyone can vote in person - no long lines.

In other words, when I see GOP legislatures looking to enact voting laws, I look at what they are doing to ensure that everyone who may be impacted can easily overcome the new legislation and then I go ... yeah, democracy, shamocracy.

I have no issue with those 3 points above.

And in a national election most of the time the fraud isn't enough to make a change. However small numbers can and do make a difference.

Case in point FL in 2000. The margin was less than 600 votes. Errors/fraud, etc could turn that one way or another.

Local races. Usually the turnout is minimal. Vote winners win on margins of 1000s to 100s of votes. A little fraud either way can turn that.

Many races that have rather large outcomes involve rather small numbers.

The attitude shouldn't be well the press hasn't talked about it.

Really want you want is rigorous control of the voting. As in making sure people eligible to vote did vote.

There is way too much money and power involved in election outcomes to have loose standards on ensuring people are voting legally.

Verifying an ID should be #1.

Limiting mail in ballots should be #2. On this there has long been a concern about the integrity of the ballots sent in. And that was before this last election cycle where many 10s of millions more were sent out.

Also as a side example CA wants or is allowing ballots to come in 10-14 days after the election is over and be counted. If one thinks about that, that is RIPE for abuse, especially when you consider there is little oversight on mail in ballots to begin with. And even without organized effort...hey my candidate lost. You know I am going to send in that ballot now. Not good. Especially when CA is loose on even the date of postage.

In the end, we should have rather enforceable standards regarding voting.

 

[espola]

Abortion is really the issue you have that is correct relating to many on the right.

The voting issue you are very wrong on.

The left is doing everything it can to bypass any real oversight on voting.

- To require an ID to vote is not voter suppression. Though the dems claim it is.
- Ballot harvesting is not something you want if you want integrity of the vote. And yet it is the left that mainly pushes this. It is ripe for corruption as the case of the R in NC shows an election cycle or 2 ago.
- Mailing out millions of mail in ballots is not a recipe for clean elections. Not long ago both Rep and Dems agreed on this. There is no chain of custody, no proof on who actually fills out, sends in the ballots. For something as vital as voting you dont want millions of ballots just floating around.
- Dems are the ones fighting cleaning up election rolls. If anything one wants the elections rolls to be as accurate as possible. And yet by and large it is the dems that fight this.
- And the most egregious is in this congress the dems have been pushing for basically federal control of the voting process...and with that all their wish lists to minimize oversight.

But back to your original comment. If you look on the push to restrict speech on campus, work, or in entertainment, that push comes today from the left.

If you look to where a group wants to push norms on other groups, today that largely comes from the left.

The one example that holds true for the right and it isnt universal would be abortion. Outside of that what national effort from the right do you see them trying to inflict on the populace at large?

It's interesting to note that in this long rant about voting the only actual fraud you cited was pulled off by Rs.

 

[Desert Hound]

our 3rd is more problematic because I don't like early voting

I dont like early voting either. Things do change. However 7 days early is close enough.

 

[Desert Hound]

It's interesting to note that in this long rant about voting the only actual fraud you cited was pulled off by Rs.

Just shows it happens amigo.

When power and money are involved you will find either party willing to push the line. That may be on the national level, or could come down to local races.

 

[whatithink]

I have proposed in the past a compromise on the voter ID issue. Allow everyone who is currently registered to vote as is, but require all new voters to get an acceptable ID.

Fine as long as the ID is free (no poll tax) and straight forward and convenient to obtain.

 

[whatithink]

"statistically zero" is not a useful concept when it comes to voting. While up until 2020 (I point out 2020 arguendo because it's kind of irrelevant to my point whether wide spread mail voting was secure enough) we could be reasonably certain there wasn't systemic widespread or coordinated voting fraud across the system, we also know that voting irregularities have happened in the past in the United States (there have been periodic convictions for voting fraud, audits have found double votes or dead people voting, and there's been historical incidents such as Illinois and the JFK election). Given that some elections (whether the house elections determined in 2020 with a margin less than 100 votes, the 2000 Presidential election with Florida decided by less than 1000 votes, or my friend's school board race determined by less than 40 votes) are so close, "statistically zero" is not a useful concept when it comes to voting fraud.

I like your first two ideas (you can do it when kids have to register for the draft....I personally think women registering is long over due)...your 3rd is more problematic because I don't like early voting....some facts on the ground could change in the 7 day period....I wouldn't be opposed to a 2 or 3 or even 4 day period including a day over the weekend.

A lot of states have auto recounts if the margin is small, and I have zero problem with recounts by competent professionals versus, say, the shite show recently in AZ. I get the sparse incidents, but elections in the US are fine.

It would be better for the country to expand the number voting, ensuring all redistricting is independent and force both political parties to have to move more to the center by making every race competitive. How f-cked up is the system when Congress' approval rating is never close to 50% but the re-election rate is in the high 90s?

 

[espola]

I have no issue with those 3 points above.

And in a national election most of the time the fraud isn't enough to make a change. However small numbers can and do make a difference.

Case in point FL in 2000. The margin was less than 600 votes. Errors/fraud, etc could turn that one way or another.

Local races. Usually the turnout is minimal. Vote winners win on margins of 1000s to 100s of votes. A little fraud either way can turn that.

Many races that have rather large outcomes involve rather small numbers.

The attitude shouldn't be well the press hasn't talked about it.

Really want you want is rigorous control of the voting. As in making sure people eligible to vote did vote.

There is way too much money and power involved in election outcomes to have loose standards on ensuring people are voting legally.

Verifying an ID should be #1.

Limiting mail in ballots should be #2. On this there has long been a concern about the integrity of the ballots sent in. And that was before this last election cycle where many 10s of millions more were sent out.

Also as a side example CA wants or is allowing ballots to come in 10-14 days after the election is over and be counted. If one thinks about that, that is RIPE for abuse, especially when you consider there is little oversight on mail in ballots to begin with. And even without organized effort...hey my candidate lost. You know I am going to send in that ballot now. Not good. Especially when CA is loose on even the date of postage.

In the end, we should have rather enforceable standards regarding voting.

California law (recently passed to counter DeJoy's messing with the USPS) allows ballots received up to 17 days after the election, providing that they are postmarked no later than Election Day (It used to be 3 days until DeJoy went crazy). What abuse is RIPE in that?