Vaccine

Grace T. said:
If the vaccines decline as much as in the study in the article I referenced, vaccine herd immunity is a fantasy. If anything, the only way we can get to herd immunity is by not engaging in NPIs that postpone things (but that's assuming natural immunity is long lasting against all variants, which we aren't sure about yet either), that means that you are being selfish by trying to avoid the virus (since it prolongs all this for all of us), but that means there's not much we can do for people like poor Colin Powell (though the sooner we get there we might spare another Colin Powell equivalent 2 years down the line).

Back in my div school hanging out days, there was this nice evangelical guy who would hang out with us all. He was very tolerant of our arguments (ranging from the shockingly out right atheist even though it was the div school) to my weird theory about religion being like prisms (they all scattered some portion of truth). Very much a literalist, though, who did his best to convince us the Bible is the spoken word of God, and that the world was some 4000 years old. Even humored me on a tour of the natural history museum, which he angrily pushed aside as propaganda. Some time around Easter he blew up at us at a gathering in the lounge, saying we were incorigible and we were all going to hell, even though we were all overwhelmingly welcoming of his point of view.

It's not our side of the table which is trying to censor dialogue...we aren't the ones pulling tweets or facebook posts...we aren't the ones telling people they should just shut up and do as they are told....we aren't the ones telling people they are fing morons or c words. When this started, remember it was those of us on team reality who were in the minority. We've always welcomed your point of view which has always been constructive (unlike the 3 trolls), and your critiques have sharpened our own.
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[Catholic] Amen Sister!
 
N00B said:
Because the cost of Covid policy… wait. You know what it means… you just get lost on the way to your conclusion.
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The accustomed usage to describe a tactical victory that is not worth the strategic cost. I don't see it.

From Pyrrus, a Greek King of a small state, who, after driving off invading Romans, claimed that his army would be finished if they won another such battle.
 
espola said:
The accustomed usage to describe a tactical victory that is not worth the strategic cost. I don't see it.

From Pyrrus, a Greek King of a small state, who, after driving off invading Romans, claimed that his army would be finished if they won another such battle.
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...don't expect you to see it.
 
dad4 said:
Dad4 has come to the realization that you all want a nice room where you can tell each other how right you are. Someone needs to walk in and fart in that room occasionally, but that’s EOTL’s job.
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If this is the conclusion you have come to, you sorely lack the "nuance" you spoke of early in the pandemic. The one thing we all agree on in our "nice room" is that we shouldn't be forcing people to get a vaccine. Your insistence that you are right and others should be forced to comply is also at the core of every despotic regime that has ever existed. EOTL is a hard-core misanthrope and will never be part of any constructive consensus. That he is the one you reference simply indicates where your heart is. Enjoy that room. It's not farting that you smell.
 
kickingandscreaming said:
If this is the conclusion you have come to, you sorely lack the "nuance" you spoke of early in the pandemic. The one thing we all agree on in our "nice room" is that we shouldn't be forcing people to get a vaccine. Your insistence that you are right and others should be forced to comply is also at the core of every despotic regime that has ever existed. EOTL is a hard-core misanthrope and will never be part of any constructive consensus. That he is the one you reference simply indicates where your heart is. Enjoy that room. It's not farting that you smell.
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The prob dad and others like him have is they believe that gov intervention would stop this thing.

The realists realized that the virus is going to spread and as such get the at risk vaxxed when possible. Outside of that move on with life and stop doing things that don't make a difference virus wise, but hurt biz, kids in schools, etc. This was the minority position initially. But you see the world start to move in that direction as they realize this thing is endemic and we may as well move along with that in mind.
 
kickingandscreaming said:
If this is the conclusion you have come to, you sorely lack the "nuance" you spoke of early in the pandemic. The one thing we all agree on in our "nice room" is that we shouldn't be forcing people to get a vaccine. Your insistence that you are right and others should be forced to comply is also at the core of every despotic regime that has ever existed. EOTL is a hard-core misanthrope and will never be part of any constructive consensus. That he is the one you reference simply indicates where your heart is. Enjoy that room. It's not farting that you smell.
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This thread does not appear to be a place for nuance or consensus building.

Look at your own post. I disagree with you, therefore I am in line with all despotic regimes that have ever existed?

Not a place for subtlety.
 
espola said:
It's not gambling if it's free to enter.
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Not money that you're gambling with and it's not free either $20-40 per dose x 1b is a lot of $$.

The govt is gambling with tax payer $$ and spending on advertising, prizes, lotteries, tests, vax, promotions, etc to future a agenda
 
dad4 said:
This thread does not appear to be a place for nuance or consensus building.

Look at your own post. I disagree with you, therefore I am in line with all despotic regimes that have ever existed?

Not a place for subtlety.
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At this point you've been crushed, pathetic to watch. Best to get on with the 5 stages.
 
lafalafa said:
Well the vaccine lottery's are still being promoted in CA.

Govt involved and promoted gambling "winning" is a interesting concept where apparently "bribing" is ok for a "cause".

www.sfgate.com

Vaccinated teenagers could win free tuition at SFSU

The drawing will be held on Nov. 15.
www.sfgate.com www.sfgate.com
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When compliance through fear doesn't work, try bribery. It's also my parenting methodology. Of course, it doesn't work on my kids either.
 
dad4 said:
This thread does not appear to be a place for nuance or consensus building.

Look at your own post. I disagree with you, therefore I am in line with all despotic regimes that have ever existed?

Not a place for subtlety.
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It's why I disagree with you. It's a line of thinking that is and has been used to coerce people and I believe it's a bad idea to use it in this case. It also removes power from individuals and we all seemed to agree that there is too much power in too few hands. It will drive more divisiveness that we can't afford - assuming the goal is to maintain a united country.

Do you find anything subtle about forcing individuals to get vaccinated?
 
dad4 said:
This thread does not appear to be a place for nuance or consensus building.

Look at your own post. I disagree with you, therefore I am in line with all despotic regimes that have ever existed?

Not a place for subtlety.
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Iirc my evangelical friend had a similar rant the day he stormed out: we weren’t a group for “consensus and open dialogue” since we spent all our time trying to “show me up” and “prove me wrong”. Our hearts weren’t truly open to God and Jesus (never mind two of us were Jewish) therefore further discussions were fruitless and he would pray for poor souls in our damnation

funny how life repeats itself. Full…freaking…circle.

ps you said at one point neighbors should inform on each other for private gatherings. Pretty despotic. Even if you never said it outright your sympathies have always been australia.
 
espola said:
Weak
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Yeah that's your immunity over time weakening even with a vax .

The effectiveness of the Pfizer Inc/BioNTech SE vaccine in preventing infection by the coronavirus dropped to 47% from 88% six months after the second dose, according to data published on Monday By Reuters

All that for 47%, gambling yup pretty much but you're not given many or any options unless you want to stay isolated in CA.
 
MicPaPa said:
At this point you've been crushed, pathetic to watch. Best to get on with the 5 stages.
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There is a difference between questions of fact and popularity contests.

How disease spreads and whether masks and vaccines work are questions of fact. Whether you like the answers is pretty much irrelevant.
 
kickingandscreaming said:
It's why I disagree with you. It's a line of thinking that is and has been used to coerce people and I believe it's a bad idea to use it in this case. It also removes power from individuals and we all seemed to agree that there is too much power in too few hands. It will drive more divisiveness that we can't afford - assuming the goal is to maintain a united country.

Do you find anything subtle about forcing individuals to get vaccinated?
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It's a question of forced exposure to the vaccine versus forced exposure to covid.

There is no pure individualist answer. Someone is getting exposed to something they don't want.

It may be that the number of unvaccinatable people is small enough that the added deaths from community spread is the smaller concern. But no one here (other than husker and espola) seems even willing to admit that the issue even exists. Therefore no discussion. Just echo chamber.
 
dad4 said:
There is a difference between questions of fact and popularity contests.

How disease spreads and whether masks and vaccines work are questions of fact. Whether you like the answers is pretty much irrelevant.
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Stage 1: Denial and Isolation
 
dad4 said:
It's a question of forced exposure to the vaccine versus forced exposure to covid.

There is no pure individualist answer. Someone is getting exposed to something they don't want.

It may be that the number of unvaccinatable people is small enough that the added deaths from community spread is the smaller concern. But no one here (other than husker and espola) seems even willing to admit that the issue even exists. Therefore no discussion. Just echo chamber.
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The difference is the natural state of things is to be exposed to viruses. There is no natural state of things where you are exposed to a vaccine. It’s a bit of a trolley problem.

But it’s an impure trolley problem because the vaccine doesn’t prevent you from catching the disease. If the studies are right, The breakthroughs are high enough that vaccine herd immunity is impossible and natural herd immunity might be our only option. Not catching the virus is likely not an option on the table.

and it’s funny you are the one mentioning cost/benefits when you’ve fought doing that analysis at every turn
 
dad4 said:
It's a question of forced exposure to the vaccine versus forced exposure to covid.

There is no pure individualist answer. Someone is getting exposed to something they don't want.

It may be that the number of unvaccinatable people is small enough that the added deaths from community spread is the smaller concern. But no one here (other than husker and espola) seems even willing to admit that the issue even exists. Therefore no discussion. Just echo chamber.
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Sometmes you are your own echo chamber. You are certainly consistent with your message. Unfortunately your zero tolerance approach isn't popular and isn't reasonable. Your own country is 75% fully vaccinated and 80% 1st dose. Pretty good. I suspect the majority of those unvaccinated are in the 12-17 age group. For all of CA, roughly 1/3 of that age group hasn't been vaccinated. Your county is probably nearly the same. Go and live it up, you are in a safe bubble where you live.

Vaccinating age groups that are low risk is silly and a waste of time and resources. Around 7K people have died due to breakthrough cases. It's going to continue to happen. I expect that number to increase as vaccines wane, boosters are neglected, and people who are vaccine brave continue to spread the virus. As we learn more about the virus it becomes even more clear who's really at risk. Many are starting to see this as a vascular disease rather than a respiratory disease. Makes sense really based on the demographic that is most susceptible.

If you really want to help, saddle up and take part in a vaccine marketing campaign in hispanic and black neighorhoods. Each group is sitting on close to 50% still not vaccinated. There is your community spread. The numbers have gotten better but they certainly have room to grow. I would wager that everyone or close to it on this forum is fully vaccinated.
 
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