Vaccine

[espola]

Stunning contribution, as usual.

It directly addressed your error, with comparable levels of effort.

 

[Grace T.]

I think our decision to open up before widespread vaccination will cost us about 100,000 lives. Most of those will be among the unvaccinated, but some will be people whose surgeries were delayed. Other people probably have better estimates.

We can say “that’s the natural order”. The logical conclusion of that argument is to limit ICU bed use for unvaccinated covid patients. After all, it’s their choice. The fact that Bob believes in internet vaccine conspiracies is no reason to delay Sam’s heart bypass.

Howard Stern went there. It doesn’t work for me. I prefer a world where we look out after each other.

a. The decision to open up was because everyone thought it was over. Joe Biden said it would be over by July 4th. Even you said it would be over in a couple of weeks.
b. The only expression about a horse to water. At this point, you aren't going to change any minds. If anything the politicization and harshness of the pro vaxxers will have caused the hard core holdouts to dig in their heels. To do anything at this point you have to mandate it which means dragging people kicking and screaming to get the shot (or if you prefer exclude them from polite society whether ICU beds, banning them from work [see the construction workers riots in Australia?], or banning them from restaurants [see the incident with the African American patrons in NY]). But hoping they'll change their minds isn't an answer.
c. You (and the authorities) ignoring those who can prove natural immunity isn't helping anything. A block of the refusers are those that have already had it.
d. You don't get to live in the world we hope for. You get to live in the world we have.

 

[Grace T.]

It directly addressed your error, with comparable levels of effort.

Back to the schtick I see.

 

[Grace T.]

Mr. Magoo is old, short, bald, fat, and nearsighted. I am old.

Who is lost?

Magoo always goes off on a tangent, doesn't realize he goes off on a tangent, which usually leads him to crash...through it all he thinks he is doing a heckuva job and stubbornly refuses to get the glasses that would rectify the situation (in part because he doesn't want the glasses to shatter the illusion that he's all that).

I didn't coin, but it does describe you and your method of "debate" (more quotes!) perfectly.

 

[what-happened]

The tragedy of the unvaccinated is how many people are doing it just for the politics.

Really? proof? It would be more palatable if you said because of politics, not for politics. Vaccine hesitancy is a thing, mainly derived from not trusting politicians, talking heads, Physicians with book deals, etc. Nice of you to paint everyone in the same light.

It would be nice to practice medicine without stoopid physicians going on tiktok and throwing tantrums.

 

[watfly]

The tragedy of the unvaccinated is how many people are doing it just for the politics.

If by politics, you mean distrust of government, regardless of party, then your probably right. The mixed messaging has contributed to that mistrust of the government.

 

[dad4]

Again, you got slapped and have no answer for all the other points so you are focused on the last.

It's the last point on the list for a reason. There is a structure in logic to the list: 1. point out the obvious tactic about what's going on here (you aren't the only one to do it), 2. point out why the argument is wrong, 3. point out that even if your assumptions are true, there is no limiting principle to what you are arguing.

The reason is that it's a danger that is always going to exist. So your prescribed solution has no limiting principle. You have no offramp. But if you admit that, you lose everyone, so you don't want to say it.

I am focused on the last because I was curious how long you would hold on to an obviously untenable position, just to avoid having to admit you were wrong.

I have gotten my answer. This function has no bound.

 

[espola]

Magoo always goes off on a tangent, doesn't realize he goes off on a tangent, which usually leads him to crash...through it all he thinks he is doing a heckuva job and stubbornly refuses to get the glasses that would rectify the situation (in part because he doesn't want the glasses to shatter the illusion that he's all that).

I didn't coin, but it does describe you and your method of "debate" (more quotes!) perfectly.

No, it doesn't.

 

[Grace T.]

I am focused on the last because I was curious how long you would hold on to an obviously untenable position, just to avoid having to admit you were wrong.

I have gotten my answer. This function has no bound.

If your point on the last is that it's a weak argument against the point you raised, I'd readily concede that. But it wasn't intended as a direct refutation (which is why it's last). It intended to show that your argument has no limiting principle, and no off ramp, which despite you being on this forum these many months, and despite being called upon to do so, you have not been able to show any. It's because we have a suspicion you'd be o.k. (because of the hypochondria) to have limitations any time a bad flu or RSV season (or future COVID season) comes around, and you just don't want to articulate it because you know how it will be received.

And it's still handwaiving to distract from the rest of your cratered argument.

It seems like we've come to the point where you and I are now not only directly arguing with each other, but now laying traps for each other and engaging in long term side arguments. We (quite stupidly I might add) are now trying to play chess instead of checkers, even though all we both have is checkers pieces.

 

[espola]

Really? proof? It would be more palatable if you said because of politics, not for politics. Vaccine hesitancy is a thing, mainly derived from not trusting politicians, talking heads, Physicians with book deals, etc. Nice of you to paint everyone in the same light.

It would be nice to practice medicine without stoopid physicians going on tiktok and throwing tantrums.

You want me to provide proof that many people are not getting vaccinated because of politics?

Do you have a link to your favorite tiktok featuring a physician throwing a tantrum?

 

[Grace T.]

No, it doesn't.

The best part about that is that by denying it, you are only playing deeper into type. You just made me laugh again. For those wondering "why does she put up with him and why doesn't she just block him like she did EOTL"....that's why.

 

[espola]

If by politics, you mean distrust of government, regardless of party, then your probably right. The mixed messaging has contributed to that mistrust of the government.

A Venn diagram of those still supporting t's Big Lie and those unvaccinated would be interesting to see.

 

[Desert Hound]

A Venn diagram of those still supporting t's Big Lie and those unvaccinated would be interesting to see.

Too bad you don't look at data.

The largest group of unvaxxed would be African Americans.

Any guess as to which party they overwhelmingly are part of?

 

[watfly]

A Venn diagram of those still supporting t's Big Lie and those unvaccinated would be interesting to see.

You know what else would be interesting? A Venn diagram of those that supported the big Russian Collusion lie and masking children.

Actually, I don't give a shit about either. I'm not really as interested as you are with throwing crap against the wall to see what sticks.

 

[Kicker4Life]

[

A Venn diagram of those still supporting t's Big Lie and those unvaccinated would be interesting to see.

Should we do a quick search on the Liberal talking heads who went on record with “I’ll never take a vaccine that Trump rushed to market” the. Later go on record with “do your part and get your shot” once Biden was in office?

Maybe just as much of the Vax hesitancy comes from that type of hypocrisy as it does from the anti-vax “misinformation”.

 

[Desert Hound]

 

[Grace T.]

Calvin, by nature, isn’t really a “try hard“ kind of kid.

Being a boy of destiny is one way to avoid effort.

Espola actually stumbled into a pretty good analogy for the COVID argument. Calvin (the boy) is pretty much the antivaxxer...trusts destiny to handle things...stubborn refusal to listen...usually (but not always) right and things work out (but sometimes not). Hobbes (the tiger) is actually a pretty good analogy for the pro lockdowners...a bit a nag that doesn't really believe in the rules (will go off and encourage his ward and engage in the same behavior when it suits him)...more concerned with seeming wise and virtuous than actually doing the work of being wise and virtuous in action. We, on team reason, are Susie Derkin, shaking our heads sadly wondering what's become of you two. And EOTL/Husker/Espola are just Moe...just there to stir things up and cause chaos.

 

[what-happened]

You want me to provide proof that many people are not getting vaccinated because of politics? YES

Do you have a link to your favorite tiktok featuring a physician throwing a tantrum? Where have you been?

 

[espola]

Espola actually stumbled into a pretty good analogy for the COVID argument. Calvin (the boy) is pretty much the antivaxxer...trusts destiny to handle things...stubborn refusal to listen...usually (but not always) right and things work out (but sometimes not). Hobbes (the tiger) is actually a pretty good analogy for the pro lockdowners...a bit a nag that doesn't really believe in the rules (will go off and encourage his ward and engage in the same behavior when it suits him)...more concerned with seeming wise and virtuous than actually doing the work of being wise and virtuous in action. We, on team reason, are Susie Derkin, shaking our heads sadly wondering what's become of you two. And EOTL/Husker/Espola are just Moe...just there to stir things up and cause chaos.

All that is ad hominem. Are you still trying to run away from your error?

...day after day...

 

[N00B]

I obviously agree with you. But that's the whole thing, does it matter? Or, more accurately, what matters, how much and for whom? How do I perceive (not calculate, perceive) the risk of damage? What kind of damage? What sort of collateral am I willing to place on the table to mitigate those perceived risks, even it is unlikely to affect me directly? The thread is sort of an exegesis of those voicing opinions on that whole thing. Ironically, the only reason it's even an issue is because, from a technological standpoint, we have a certain ability to choose this time around. It would be one thing if people were dropping like flies and this virus produced the typical U-shaped mortality profile as a function of age. But CoV-2 instead offers a kind of bargain. It says "Here I am. New kid on the block. Nice to meet you. Yum. Success for me is to reach steady state propagation in as big a population as possible. BTW thanks for inventing the whole rapid global travel network. Love the interconnectivity. So I'll tell you what I do. I'm going to mow through you like a lawnmower but I'm mostly going to kill your parents but not your kids. I mean by and large. Of course just by accident. I'll try and play nice. At any rate it should not be too bad. Not in the grand scheme of things. At the worst, a few extra refrigerator trucks (if you have them) tucked discretely behind the morgue and you should be good. Drop in the bucket really. Odds are you won't even notice. Well, except for all the videos on the internet of granny hacking up syntiated aveolar tissue against plastic sheeting while she waves bye bye on a nurse's cell phone. There is that. People like Gupta want to hold me up as the real Leviathan. I'm cold reality in a Darwinian kind of way. But that's so 17th century thinking. I'm here to tell you that your internet is the real new Leviathan. Anyway, the bottom line question becomes how much does all that matter to you. And if your answer is "meh, fits in the natural order" or you can't collectively get your shit together about figuring it out, that works for me. How does that sound?"

The other ‘How we get to heard immunity’ part that is important involves the political leviathan.

I don’t think, when past fear of barbarians at the gate (Covid 19… or just facing mortality without religion) that society is ready for a new wave of Enlightened ‘science based’ Despotism.