Trans eligibility rules for girls sports.

[Happened again]

But have you seen or heard of such ECNL championship stealing kid? Don't use naming as a cop-out. No need to use names. It either exists or it doesn't. I don't want to debate your imaginary bear.

Examples are few and far between and will likley not be a trend. I don't think it will ever effect anyone on a large scale. There is a high performing letter league team with a goalie. Very obvious when playing in the air, distribution, etc.. It really hasn' caused much of a ruckus (and it likely shoudn't). I'm certain it would cause a ruckus if that player moved to the field. For now, all good.

 

[Grace T.]

They’re not going to lie on all your forms.

Errrr....there is a very lucrative market for false papers in the United States. A couple years back they even posted ads for them both here and on the soccer boards that kept having to be pulled down.

You seem to be trying very hard to create confusion where none exists.

I like this exercise. But "What about the hairy hand?" is basically all we do in law school. Takes me back. Don't whine because you don't like the questions you get back and it makes it too complicated when you desire simplicity. That's weak. This isn't a simple issue. It's a puzzle.

p.s. you always lash out when stuck

Birth certificates have a field for “date signed”. You only have to think about it when “date signed” is 10-15 years later than “birthdate.”.

The same issue exists for lost papers or reissuing originals. That doesn't solve it. It doesn't catch your xxys (so if your test is y chromosomes you are now back to just targeting trans). Doesn't solve you FTM problem.

 

[Woodwork]

p.s. you always lash out when stuck

In fairness, lawyers don't recognize how annoying they are to regular people when they argue. They all think its normal. They think they are being nice and having a friendly conversation but the regular people they talk to feel like they just went through a deposition.

 

[dad4]

In fairness, lawyers don't recognize how annoying they are to regular people when they argue. They all think its normal. They think they are being nice and having a friendly conversation but the regular people they talk to feel like they just went through a deposition.

I don't mind the banter, but I find the lack of attention to detail obnoxious.

She a giant pile of words, then expecting the other person to shoot down every subargument, no matter how ill-formed.

For me, once I've shown that the first tupperware has rotten fish, I don't need to smell the others.

 

[Grace T.]

I don't mind the banter, but I find the lack of attention to detail obnoxious.

She a giant pile of words, then expecting the other person to shoot down every subargument, no matter how ill-formed.

For me, once I've shown that the first tupperware has rotten fish, I don't need to smell the others.

In fairness, lawyers don't recognize how annoying they are to regular people when they argue. They all think its normal. They think they are being nice and having a friendly conversation but the regular people they talk to feel like they just went through a deposition.

See...lashes out. Get what you are saying but he isn't the ordinary poster. As with COVID, he doesn't like it when his pronouncements are challenged and beliefs are shaken.

 

[dad4]

See...lashes out. Get what you are saying but he isn't the ordinary poster. As with COVID, he doesn't like it when his pronouncements are challenged and beliefs are shaken.

Sorry, but your "birth certificates are compromised" argument was 3 year old lutefisk.

You tossed it out there without bothering to think it through. You didn't even bother looking at a birth certificate before you posted it.

 

[Grace T.]

Sorry, but your "birth certificates are compromised" argument was 3 year old lutefisk.

You tossed it out there without bothering to think it through. You didn't even bother looking at a birth certificate before you posted it.

Dude I’ve done pro bono gender change birth certificates almost a dozen times. The two things which change are the date issued down at the bottom (in purple for certified copies) and the gender. It is otherwise completely indistinguishable. I’m literally looking at one right now that I did. That date issued changed for duplicates and lost documents too (my sons was lost. Looking at it now too. It has the new date).

your test was the Y chromosome. Your methodology was check the birthcert and if not test. It fails because other than the issuance date it is the same (anyone who loses there’s would have to test). It doesn’t catch the xxy people which means you are back to targeting people that may look trans. It doesn’t solve your ftm who are taking performance enhancing testosterone. Fail.

 

[dad4]

Dude I’ve done pro bono gender change birth certificates almost a dozen times. The two things which change are the date issued down at the bottom (in purple for certified copies) and the gender. It is otherwise completely indistinguishable. I’m literally looking at one right now that I did. That date issued changed for duplicates and lost documents too (my sons was lost. Looking at it now too. It has the new date).

your test was the Y chromosome. Your methodology was check the birthcert and if not test. It fails because other than the issuance date it is the same (anyone who loses there’s would have to test). It doesn’t catch the xxy people which means you are back to targeting people that may look trans. It doesn’t solve your ftm who are taking performance enhancing testosterone. Fail.

So, it is indistinguishable, except for the field which distinguishes it perfectly.

As arguments go, that's still a dead fish.

 

[Grace T.]

So, it is indistinguishable, except for the field which distinguishes it perfectly.

As arguments go, that's still a dead fish.

Indistinguishable except for a field that doesn’t point to a gender change but can point to a whole slew of other reasons including simply a lost document, which puts the burden of finding it and ordering and administering the test on the hapless club and league registrars (“sorry your birth certificate burned in the fire…here’s a genetic test”), which despite you saying you care about the Y chromosome you target trans and give Xxys a pass (why is that I wonder) and which doesn’t solve your ftm problem.

you’d honestly just be better off saying genetic tests for everyone and that you don’t care about ftm. Instead you Build a system with no limiting principle and just gets you the result you wanted: dump just the trans people. Fail.

 

[dad4]

Indistinguishable except for a field that doesn’t point to a gender change but can point to a whole slew of other reasons including simply a lost document, which puts the burden of finding it and ordering and administering the test on the hapless club and league registrars (“sorry your birth certificate burned in the fire…here’s a genetic test”), which despite you saying you care about the Y chromosome you target trans and give Xxys a pass (why is that I wonder) and which doesn’t solve your ftm problem.

you’d honestly just be better off saying genetic tests for everyone and that you don’t care about ftm. Instead you Build a system with no limiting principle and just gets you the result you wanted: dump just the trans people. Fail.

You say I give a pass to XXY.

Think for a second.

Does an XXY individual have a Y chromosome?

It's not a hard question.

 

[Grace T.]

You say I give a pass to XXY.

Think for a second.

Does an XXY individual have a Y chromosome?

It's not a hard question.

Duh doy. The birth certificate doesn’t list out a genetic composition. To catch it you’d have to test everyone. The system you laid out only tests people who have their birth certificates reissued.

 

[dad4]

Duh doy. The birth certificate doesn’t list out a genetic composition. To catch it you’d have to test everyone. The system you laid out only tests people who have their birth certificates reissued.

I don't have to care whether I find every single undiagnosed XXY trisomy athlete.

It is extremely rare, not particularly performance enhancing, and most present as male anyway. I can ignore it.

 

[Grace T.]

I don't have to care whether I find every single undiagnosed XXY trisomy athlete.

It is extremely rare, not particularly performance enhancing, and most present as male anyway. I can ignore it.

So again:
A. You don’t really care about the Y chromosome. It was pretextual
B. You built a system that produces the result you wanted to begin with: exclude the mtf trans. Rather than apply a principle and build from there.
C. You don’t care about one particularly small group but you do seem to care about a slightly larger but also uncommon group and when you take the other genetic abnormalities you yourself set out it closes that gap even more
D. You’ve also made normative judgements over what’s particularly performance enhancing. A male to female that wasn’t particularly athletic or have a high testosterone count might not be more performanced enhanced than say Jamie Lee Curtis.
E. You aren’t particularly concerned with the ftms for some reason which your system doesn’t address.

you may as well just come out and say you don’t want mtf to play with your daughter because you don’t like them. Wow.

 

[dad4]

So again:
A. You don’t really care about the Y chromosome. It was pretextual
B. You built a system that produces the result you wanted to begin with: exclude the mtf trans. Rather than apply a principle and build from there.
C. You don’t care about one particularly small group but you do seem to care about a slightly larger but also uncommon group and when you take the other genetic abnormalities you yourself set out it closes that gap even more
D. You’ve also made normative judgements over what’s particularly performance enhancing. A male to female that wasn’t particularly athletic or have a high testosterone count might not be more performanced enhanced than say Jamie Lee Curtis.
E. You aren’t particularly concerned with the ftms for some reason which your system doesn’t address.

you may as well just come out and say you don’t want mtf to play with your daughter because you don’t like them. Wow.

Part of any discussion is that each person does a little internal editing and brings forward their most well reasoned ideas.

You seem to want to play "what if" with super long posts while the other person does all the heavy lifting of sorting out which ideas have merit.

Not interested. You already gave us two rotten fish: one factually false claim about birth certificates, and one unnecessary diversion into an extremely rare trisomy condition.

That's enough for me.

 

[Grace T.]

Part of any discussion is that each person does a little internal editing and brings forward their most well reasoned ideas.

You seem to want to play "what if" with super long posts while the other person does all the heavy lifting of sorting out which ideas have merit.

Not interested. You already gave us two rotten fish: one factually false claim about birth certificates, and one unnecessary diversion into an extremely rare trisomy condition.

That's enough for me.

As I said that what if is the entire way they teach reasoning in law school. The theory is that is your proposition is strong enough to withstand the what if questions then you have a winner

yours has been weighed, measured and found wanting. It starts with the proposition mtf should be excluded, builds a system that produces that result, and spits out the answer you wanted. What’s worse if you’ve targeted the community because youve appointed registrars to hunt down anyone who has an anamoly in their birth certificates (even those that lost and replaced them or has some paternity issue such as a father that was added) and force just those people to test in an attempt to root out those you want to exclude. There’s some words for that: witch hunt.

you could have stuck to your Y chromosome test and tested everyone. You could have done a testosterone test and caught the performing enhancing drugs. You could have had a physical test. You could have had a performance test. You could have had a test that trusted the documents issued by California. But you didn’t do that: you singled out mtf individuals because you wanted them excluded to begin with for some reason that doesn’t have to do with performance (or you’d test for performance enhancing drugs too). Wow.

 

[espola]

As I said that what if is the entire way they teach reasoning in law school. The theory is that is your proposition is strong enough to withstand the what if questions then you have a winner

yours has been weighed, measured and found wanting. It starts with the proposition mtf should be excluded, builds a system that produces that result, and spits out the answer you wanted. What’s worse if you’ve targeted the community because youve appointed registrars to hunt down anyone who has an anamoly in their birth certificates (even those that lost and replaced them or has some paternity issue such as a father that was added) and force just those people to test in an attempt to root out those you want to exclude. There’s some words for that: witch hunt.

you could have stuck to your Y chromosome test and tested everyone. You could have done a testosterone test and caught the performing enhancing drugs. You could have had a physical test. You could have had a performance test. You could have had a test that trusted the documents issued by California. But you didn’t do that: you singled out mtf individuals because you wanted them excluded to begin with for some reason that doesn’t have to do with performance (or you’d test for performance enhancing drugs too). Wow.

That's reasoning?

Wow.

 

[Grace T.]

That's reasoning?

Wow.

Meh take it up with the law schools. It’s why you never want to hire a lawyer if you are trying to innovate something. They’ll just tear it down and give you every reason not to do it

 

[dad4]

That's reasoning?

Wow.

There are some pretty reasonable posts before the recent nonsense. Shame on me for helping Grace divert the whole thing.

 

[Grace T.]

There are some pretty reasonable posts before the recent nonsense. Shame on me for helping Grace divert the whole thing.

I gave you my two propositions which are actually quite centrist:

1. sliding scale of scrutiny depending on the level, whether team or individual sport, and age
2. As a thumbnail if it ain’t important enough to test for performance enhancing drugs, it’s probably not important enough to warrant heightened scrutiny

you’re the one that trotted out the witch hunt proposal. That more than anything is what you should be ashamed of.

 

[GoldenGate]

Well, somebody got so bent that they just had to sent me a DM.