Trans eligibility rules for girls sports.

dad4 said:
Sincerely held belief with no limits on testosterone? This policy won’t last 10 years.

For U17 or U19, if you put five competent MTF athletes on the any ECNL team, they’d win nationals every time. That is, until some other team finds six.
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I’d have added must be living full time in their chosen gender but it’s just another velvet rope. In a team sport if you are really concerned about an mtf athlete you could limit the number on a team. Your bigger worry would actually be the ftm who still play on the girls team and have the birth certificate still to back it up.

so what you advocating for in youth soccer? Testosterone testing? You’d be ok with steroid testing too? A level cut off (the boys have the mls academias but the girls have no equivalent truly elite division)?
 
Grace T. said:
I’d have added must be living full time in their chosen gender but it’s just another velvet rope. In a team sport if you are really concerned about an mtf athlete you could limit the number on a team. Your bigger worry would actually be the ftm who still play on the girls team and have the birth certificate still to back it up.

so what you advocating for in youth soccer? Testosterone testing? You’d be ok with steroid testing too? A level cut off (the boys have the mls academias but the girls have no equivalent truly elite division)?
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The whole debate is premised on the idea that there is an 18 year old birth-male who is better than all the ECNL players, who is going to stop playing better competition on the boys side, leave the player's current boys team, and chase after a national trophy with a new ECNL girls team.

Give me a real life example, please. Otherwise, I'm just seeing an imagined parade of horribles and fear and panic. Chicken little over here. Reality is this fear mongering is just stopping players that would be better off socially and maybe even physically on a girls team.
 

Just one of many examples of making a specific rule only after it becomes an actual problem. Sure it was unfair for a second, maybe (not from a physical perspective but because of the unique gear). But enjoy it while it lasts and don't make an unnecessary rule until you actually see a problem.

Note that you didn't see dudes running to get foot removal before the rule, which is what Dad4 is saying would happen, effectively.
 
Woodwork said:
The whole debate is premised on the idea that there is an 18 year old birth-male who is better than all the ECNL players, who is going to stop playing better competition on the boys side, leave the player's current boys team, and chase after a national trophy with a new ECNL girls team.

Give me a real life example, please. Otherwise, I'm just seeing an imagined parade of horribles and fear and panic. Chicken little over here. Reality is this fear mongering is just stopping players that would be better off socially and maybe even physically on a girls team.
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It’s also fear mongering with very real consequences for other players at least at the youth soccer level (since birth certificates aren’t a viable limit at least in California):
-physical exams for any girl that’s challenge
-drug testing for players (drug tests which aren’t free and need to be done somewhat frequently)
-genetic tests for players which could exclude certain rare people like xxy

fairness is an ephemeral concept.
 
Grace T. said:
It’s also fear mongering with very real consequences for other players at least at the youth soccer level (since birth certificates aren’t a viable limit at least in California):
-physical exams for any girl that’s challenge
-drug testing for players (drug tests which aren’t free and need to be done somewhat frequently)
-genetic tests for players which could exclude certain rare people like xxy

fairness is an ephemeral concept.
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As a staunch republican, I am against having to submit my kids to these government intrusions, for the same reason I am against having to show proof of vaccination for Covid-19.
 
Woodwork said:
The whole debate is premised on the idea that there is an 18 year old birth-male who is better than all the ECNL players, who is going to stop playing better competition on the boys side, leave the player's current boys team, and chase after a national trophy with a new ECNL girls team.

Give me a real life example, please. Otherwise, I'm just seeing an imagined parade of horribles and fear and panic. Chicken little over here. Reality is this fear mongering is just stopping players that would be better off socially and maybe even physically on a girls team.
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We should not go into real life examples. Any real life example is a real person, and I have no intent to draw them into it.

Very high skill MTF athletes exist. Lia Thomas is one. But she is an adult who chose to grab the spotlight for herself. I’m not going to out some kid.
 
dad4 said:
We should not go into real life examples. Any real life example is a real person, and I have no intent to draw them into it.

Very high skill MTF athletes exist. Lia Thomas is one. But she is an adult who chose to grab the spotlight for herself. I’m not going to out some kid.
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Good for you (not intended sarcastically). But as yourself say, Lia Thomas, an adult competing in an individual sport, is very different than some kid, playing a team sport in a league that doesn't care enough to screen for performance enhancing drugs. Given that birth certificates aren't a viable screen in California, what would you propose we do about it to screen?
 
Grace T. said:
I’d have added must be living full time in their chosen gender but it’s just another velvet rope. In a team sport if you are really concerned about an mtf athlete you could limit the number on a team. Your bigger worry would actually be the ftm who still play on the girls team and have the birth certificate still to back it up.

so what you advocating for in youth soccer? Testosterone testing? You’d be ok with steroid testing too? A level cut off (the boys have the mls academias but the girls have no equivalent truly elite division)?
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The simplest rule is Y chromosomes in one division, everyone else in the other.

So, XY, XXY, and 46XY would compete on the men’s side. XX and XXX would compete on the women’s.

To enforce the rule, go with birth identification, and do a cheek swab if there is a question about it.

Testing for steroids? It’s probably coming. This site already has a thread asking which PED are you allowed to give your kid. It won’t be too long before we have to test for it.
 
dad4 said:
Roughly 2% of kids identify as trans. Why would it be only 0.001% for athletes?
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Certainly a touch of hyperbole on my part.

That being said, I'm guessing that the out MTF trans subpopulation participation rate in youth soccer is well below the population at large, for a whole host of reasons.
 
dad4 said:
The simplest rule is Y chromosomes in one division, everyone else in the other.

So, XY, XXY, and 46XY would compete on the men’s side. XX and XXX would compete on the women’s.

To enforce the rule, go with birth identification, and do a cheek swab if there is a question about it.

Testing for steroids? It’s probably coming. This site already has a thread asking which PED are you allowed to give your kid. It won’t be too long before we have to test for it.
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Fine, but I point out again you can't do birth identification because that procedure has been compromised. You'd have to test every player to register. You also have the unresolved problem of FTM that even though they are taking performance enhancing testosterone, they'd play with the girls. To fear monger, you could build a national championship team of FTM.
 
VanMan said:
Certainly a touch of hyperbole on my part.

That being said, I'm guessing that the out MTF trans subpopulation participation rate in youth soccer is well below the population at large, for a whole host of reasons.
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Only 20% of the population plays any kind of sports. Only 7% of the population plays soccer. So, it wouldn't be 0.001%, but around 0.035% and your point still stands.
 
dad4 said:
NWSL is dealing with adults. It’s closer to reasonable for them to request a specific medical procedure (gonadectomy or androgen suppressants) as a condition of playing in their league. And they do require it.

I wouldn’t want to out that kind of pressure on a kid. You don’t want to say “we’ll let you play, but only if you push transition faster than you find comfortable”.
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I hadn't thought of that, and makes some sense. How does the NCAA rule on this for soccer?
 
socalkdg said:
I hadn't thought of that, and makes some sense. How does the NCAA rule on this for soccer?
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Because there's less of an issue with a now adult athlete (as opposed to a kid) taking testosterone blockers and hormones, and because they already have a system in place to test athletes for PED, it's geared to testosterone levels. Individual sports make their own rules under this general guidance. IIRC it used to be more severe (you have to have had the surgery). It's called "sport by sport"

www.ncaa.org

Board of Governors updates transgender participation policy - NCAA.org

The NCAA Board of Governors on Wednesday voted in support of a sport-by-sport approach to transgender participation that preserves opportunity for transgender student-athletes
www.ncaa.org www.ncaa.org

A good summary. The changes, however, do generally allow a Lia Thomas to compete. I could be wrong but I don't think they've ruled on soccer yet....maybe because of the west virginia lawsuit that's pending.

www.si.com

Transgender athletes: Which states, sports federations have bans - Sports Illustrated

Looking at the different bans and policies around sports.
www.si.com www.si.com
 
dad4 said:
We should not go into real life examples. Any real life example is a real person, and I have no intent to draw them into it.

Very high skill MTF athletes exist. Lia Thomas is one. But she is an adult who chose to grab the spotlight for herself. I’m not going to out some kid.
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But have you seen or heard of such ECNL championship stealing kid? Don't use naming as a cop-out. No need to use names. It either exists or it doesn't. I don't want to debate your imaginary bear.
 
Grace T. said:
Fine, but I point out again you can't do birth identification because that procedure has been compromised. You'd have to test every player to register. You also have the unresolved problem of FTM that even though they are taking performance enhancing testosterone, they'd play with the girls. To fear monger, you could build a national championship team of FTM.
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Birth certificates have a field for “date signed”. You only have to think about it when “date signed” is 10-15 years later than “birthdate.”.

You seem to be trying very hard to create confusion where none exists. We are talking about kids who were identified male at birth, identify as female, and just want to play. They’re not going to lie on all your forms.
 
mlx said:
Everything has to have context.

I can see how a few trans women winning world championship can be a problem and deserves its own conversation.

On the other side, we should NOT get our panties in a bunch that a 10 year old trans girl is the most happy kid playing with her friends for the Brentwood Unicorns or whatever in socal.
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You are right, 10 year olds playing coed isn't a big deal. Not uncommon for girl athletes to be dominant at that age. My youngest dominated most boys in any sport until 14, then they caught up
 
Woodwork said:
But have you seen or heard of such ECNL championship stealing kid? Don't use naming as a cop-out. No need to use names. It either exists or it doesn't. I don't want to debate your imaginary bear.
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Examples are few and far between and will likley not be a trend. I don't think it will ever effect anyone on a large scale. There is a high performing letter league team with a goalie. Very obvious when playing in the air, distribution, etc.. It really hasn' caused much of a ruckus (and it likely shoudn't). I'm certain it would cause a ruckus if that player moved to the field. For now, all good.
 
dad4 said:
They’re not going to lie on all your forms.
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Errrr....there is a very lucrative market for false papers in the United States. A couple years back they even posted ads for them both here and on the soccer boards that kept having to be pulled down.
dad4 said:
You seem to be trying very hard to create confusion where none exists.
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I like this exercise. But "What about the hairy hand?" is basically all we do in law school. Takes me back. Don't whine because you don't like the questions you get back and it makes it too complicated when you desire simplicity. That's weak. This isn't a simple issue. It's a puzzle.

p.s. you always lash out when stuck

dad4 said:
Birth certificates have a field for “date signed”. You only have to think about it when “date signed” is 10-15 years later than “birthdate.”.
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The same issue exists for lost papers or reissuing originals. That doesn't solve it. It doesn't catch your xxys (so if your test is y chromosomes you are now back to just targeting trans). Doesn't solve you FTM problem.
 
Woodwork said:
In fairness, lawyers don't recognize how annoying they are to regular people when they argue. They all think its normal. They think they are being nice and having a friendly conversation but the regular people they talk to feel like they just went through a deposition.
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I don't mind the banter, but I find the lack of attention to detail obnoxious.

She a giant pile of words, then expecting the other person to shoot down every subargument, no matter how ill-formed.

For me, once I've shown that the first tupperware has rotten fish, I don't need to smell the others.
 
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