Trans eligibility rules for girls sports.

[Grace T.]

All distinctions such as these will have "winners" and "losers". I don't call on morality or fairness - just distinctions that are the most meaningful in terms of competitive advantage. Is Lia Thomas one of those tiny fractions of people born biologically male but developed physically in a way that is typical for females? If not, I'd say we are shafting every female that has to compete against her.

If there is no competitive advantage to being an MTF trans in female sports, we should expect to see as many high-performing FTM trans playing male sports. I haven't heard of any but I haven't looked either. Also, if we do get to the point where it's generally accepted that "sex" isn't binary, we need to expand Title IX accordingly. For every MTF trans female sports scholarship, we need to give an FTM trans male sports scholarship.

If we really care about competitive advantage, we'd be screening for testosterone/steroids on both the boys and girls side, not to mention cracking down on the phony documents we all know float around southern California for playing sports. The reason we don't do it of course is because parents would balk at regularly subjecting their kids to testing just to catch a handful of cheaters and would just go to another league that doesn't do it. A good guide post is that if the matter isn't serious enough to steroid test, then it probably isn't either to use a heightened scrutiny standard against transgenders (that thumbnail would require heightened scrutiny for Lia Thomas). Or we could go the way of the Ohio bill debated, but I think quite a few people might take umbrage if their goat daughter was forced to undergo a physical exam because the other side wanted to mess with her before the championship game. We've all had the moment when the beast of a child walks on to the field and the other side says "there's no way they are age X".

What's even more complicated is the state of California has moved to loosen standards to change gender on a birth certificate. The federal government is moving the same way as passports. So if we really care about this issue, the paper won't be sufficient in any case. BTW California has now even further complicated things because it allows people to now declare "nonbinary" on birth certificates, rendering them near worthless for determining what league to assign. We can all say California shouldn't have done this, but that's the reality so what now?

 

[JB805]

The answer depends on whether she is going to play professionally in the NWSL where the rule you are talking about applies, or kiddie soccer where winning and losing doesn't matter.

I'm totally in agreement that if winning and losing doesn't matter and youth soccer isn't competitive and the only thing that matters is growth, inclusivity and acceptance then by all means - allow transgender players to be sanctioned with no requirement for testing or treatments. With this scenario, I'd also say to go full recreational: don't keep score, make sure there is equal playing time for everyone. There also isn't a need to separate players based off of their gender to begin with - allow full co-ed teams.

 

[Grace T.]

I'm totally in agreement that if winning and losing doesn't matter and youth soccer isn't competitive and the only thing that matters is growth, inclusivity and acceptance then by all means - allow transgender players to be sanctioned with no requirement for testing or treatments. With this scenario, I'd also say to go full recreational: don't keep score, make sure there is equal playing time for everyone. There also isn't a need to separate players based off of their gender to begin with - allow full co-ed teams.

This begs the question of when "winning and losing" matter. If they matter so much, why aren't we steroid testing? The steroid basically is just artificial testosterone. And what's the meaning behind "winning and losing"....a tournament, state cup, national championship? At the Lia Thompson level it absolutely matters. At the MLS Academy level...maybe you have an argument (part of the problem if the girls don't really have a true elite bracket). At flight 2? Probably not. Then there's the argument that the obsession with winning and losing, given the way soccer is structured, is detrimental to US soccer development.

 

[Happened again]

Theres a lot to unpack here in this thoughtful statement. The eye test is helpful in a South Park situation. It’s less helpful in the situation jabroni described which is someone born xy but genetically inferior in athletics to other xy and if you look at the person they are closer to girl than boy. In such cases the eye test isn’t a useful limiting principle because it’s in the eye of the beholder

there’s been a lot of inconsistency and debate surrounding age of consent. A lot of data shows kids don’t really start to fully mature til their mid 20s. We don’t allow them to drink until 21 and there’s a push to restrict gun ownership to 21. But there as also a push to allow vaccine and abortion consent at age 12, and if they can consent to that why not hormones? They can drive (and negligently kill someone with a vehicle) at age 16. Die in war at 18

the age at which this should happen is also fraught. It is true there are some trans cases that are very obvious: it’s been obvious since they were very small that something was different…waiting in such cases will definitively impact the quality of life of such a person by forcing them to wait to transition. It is also true that these things have life altering implications that can’t be undone and there are people that have gone through it that later regret it or say they have some other psychological condition that was missed. At a minimum the standard for psychological screening before anything permanent is done needs to be much much higher than it is when it comes to minor and the ideology needs to be removed from it as much as possible.

again, very complicated and there are always statistical outliers. I hate to generalize using statistical outliers. What does genetically inferior mean? XY is XY. The eye of the beholder is important for high level youth sports. At the lower levels of youth sports, most people/parents don't care, there isn't as much at stake. Plenty of opening for argument there but the reality is a boy playing in a girls local league will not generate enough drama to move the needle.

We could go round and round forever on this..it's a politcally charged topic, usually spearheaded by ideologues without much skin in the game.

As far as not truly maturing until the mid 20s...yes....especially for boys. It's why the NFL is very particular when college kids can declare. 19-20 year old boys dont' stack up well to 25 year old men. Girls wrap things up sooner. You'll never see MTF in an NBA/MLB/NFL/EPL/La Liga...etc... uniform. Maybe I'll be proven wrong, but I doubt it..

Now gender?

 

[Grace T.]

again, very complicated and there are always statistical outliers. I hate to generalize using statistical outliers. What does genetically inferior mean? XY is XY. The eye of the beholder is important for high level youth sports. At the lower levels of youth sports, most people/parents don't care, there isn't as much at stake. Plenty of opening for argument there but the reality is a boy playing in a girls local league will not generate enough drama to move the needle.

We could go round and round forever on this..it's a politcally charged topic, usually spearheaded by ideologues without much skin in the game.

As far as not truly maturing until the mid 20s...yes....especially for boys. It's why the NFL is very particular when college kids can declare. 19-20 year old boys dont' stack up well to 25 year old men. Girls wrap things up sooner. You'll never see MTF in an NBA/MLB/NFL/EPL/La Liga...etc... uniform. Maybe I'll be proven wrong, but I doubt it..

Now gender?

I like it. This is very thoughtful. I guess my biggest point is that this is not a clear black and white issue...it's not as easy as saying ban all transgendered or let all transgendered compete whereever they choose even if it's the olympics.

It's an interesting point as well about FTM....when do we say they can't compete anymore with the girls? Testosterone is a performing enhancing drug. That line of reasoning leads to all transgendered get dumped in with the men (along with the nonbinary and the xxy) regardless of how they were born. If you are going to testosterone test them, you have to do it for everyone else too (because otherwise you say we are o.k. with cheaters but not the transgendered). It's also an acknowledgement once and for all that female sports are somehow "lesser", an artificial construct meant to protect them, and if so what really is the point? Pretty existential right there. Mind blown.

 

[JB805]

Virtually every sports organization decided a long time ago what the answer is to your question. Most decided that winning a kiddie sport is just not important compared to inclusion and doing one's party to create a tolerant and safe environment for all children, and that trans girls can therefore play for as long as they're age eligible. The NCAA has set their standard. The NWSL has set it's standard. The Olympics has set its standard. Most HS organizations have set their standards. Obviously club soccer organizations have set their standards. And if/when they decide the standard doesn't appear to be appropriate or working, they change it to address that as the NCAA recently did with swimming, just as every organization does with respect to any issue from time to time.

I don't see that any of the youth soccer bodies that sanction Southern California have set any kind of standard. Show me if you have and I'll change my tune. If they did, it would be important to be transparent about it to avoid this kind of conflict. It's what I've been saying the entire time - that there needs to be discussion about this as a community to which you told me:

And no, there is no need for discussion.

Your problem is that you simply refuse to accept the very simple concept that winning and losing in youth sports is not important compared to inclusivity, taking action to protect trans children from the inevitable abuse and hostility that they face, and helping educate others to overcome their irrational transphobic fears, all of which you have proven quite clearly is very necessary. And you refuse to accept the fact that pretty much every sports organization around already did this many years ago. In reality, you just don't give a shit about the health, safety and welfare of trans children.

Do I have irrational transphobic fears? I don't think that I do but you've been telling me otherwise. I have already and will continue to admit that I don't have a complete comprehension of transgenders athletes in sports, especially youth sports. It's not something that was even brought to my attention until recently. I'd like to think that I'm pretty accepting and willing to at least try to understand everyone's point of view. This is why I've been saying that it's important to have this discussion to begin with.

Honestly, there is no point in having a real conversation with you until you are willing to admit and accept the reality that a trans girl is very likely to face terrible abuse and suffering if they are left with the bullshit Hobson's choice of having to play on a boys team or stop playing sports altogether when they're just 10 years old, and that you're perfectly ok with that.

I have never once said that. Re-read my post that made you upset to begin with:

I'm not going to generalize here and will discuss specifics even though identifying this player and team in this scenario makes me uncomfortable. This is a place for discussion and this won't be the last time we question "is this a boy or a girl?" playing against our daughters.

This conversation has happened on sidelines at multiple tournaments throughout the country regarding this same team. I've witnessed it first-hand not just with my kid's team but with others playing against the team in question. I have also heard that this concern has been brought to tournament officials and their response was that the player's eligibility isn't up to the tournament but is on the club's sanctioning body.

It's clear that you can't even muster the ability to admit that transphobic children face terrible abuse from their male peers in sport, because that would require you to have sympathy for a group that you obviously hold in contempt but aren't willing to come out and say. So instead, you make up bullshit excuses about how a 10 year old trans girl is a "safety issue", although that is a ridiculous, asinine position that was rightfully rejected by pretty much every youth soccer organization on the planet many years ago.

I specified how a tournament dealt with a complaint that they had received about a specific player. I also specified that player safety was the concern that the party that complained had. That is enough for you to call me transphobic, a shit bag, call my 10 year old daughter a shit bag and then give more identifying details than I ever had about the player that you accused me of outing. I'm not the one that needs to admit anything. You've clearly been so triggered about the idea of having this conversation that you're full-on delusional and unable to comprehend anything that I've said. I've not once asked why or asked for you to admit what it is that's gotten you to this point but it doesn't matter - you're clearly irrationally upset.

So then you pivot to "rules are rules" and point to a bunch of rules that actually say nothing to say about the issue and, in fact, which are completely contrary to their actual positions on transgender play given they all clearly allow it. So then, you point to an NWSL policy for professional adult athletes that you want to apply to freakin' children, because you mistakenly believe supports your hatred of trans children. But, go figure, it turns out even that policy says the opposite of what you want because virtually all 10 year old boys fall far below the max testosterone standards set fort therein. So then you claim trans children should not be allowed to play because it's not appropriate to "fuck with testosterone levels", which is also a bs argument because it isn't necessary given that at least pre-pubescent boys fall under the NWSL's limits, which you previously claimed was "gospel".

Further proof that you're beyond triggered and have zero ability to comprehend.

So what is your next excuse? I know you don't want to go down the road of admitting that you're worried that you and your child's fragile ego can't handle the possibility she isn't good enough to compete with a 10 year old trans girl. I know you don't want to go down the road of admitting that your own fragile self esteem depends greatly on whether your 10 year old daughter wins a soccer trophy. I know you don't want to just come out and say "god says trans children shouldn't play soccer". I know you don't want to claim that you're worried that your daughter playing with a trans girl will educate her that trans people aren't bad and will cause her to question your transphobic views and/or your religion? So what is it going to be this time?

I hope you find happiness. It's not going to be in this thread.

 

[VanMan]

I'm totally in agreement that if winning and losing doesn't matter and youth soccer isn't competitive and the only thing that matters is growth, inclusivity and acceptance then by all means - allow transgender players to be sanctioned with no requirement for testing or treatments. With this scenario, I'd also say to go full recreational: don't keep score, make sure there is equal playing time for everyone. There also isn't a need to separate players based off of their gender to begin with - allow full co-ed teams.

So throw the whole system out because there's like a 0.001% chance there's an MTF trans kid on the other team.

 

[Soccer Dad & Ref]

I'm totally in agreement that if winning and losing doesn't matter and youth soccer isn't competitive and the only thing that matters is growth, inclusivity and acceptance then by all means - allow transgender players to be sanctioned with no requirement for testing or treatments. With this scenario, I'd also say to go full recreational: don't keep score, make sure there is equal playing time for everyone. There also isn't a need to separate players based off of their gender to begin with - allow full co-ed teams.

you seriously think club records matter that much in the long run, don't you. I get that a lot of parents live and die with their child's team records, but you all have a problem. I think your testosterone levels may be too high, need to test you for something...

Add your desire to win "fairly" with your fairly obvious transphobia, and you get a special sort of something...

 

[JB805]

So throw the whole system out because there's like a 0.001% chance there's an MTF trans kid on the other team.

Either that or come up with some kind of trans eligibility guidelines.

 

[Soccer Dad & Ref]

We can all say California shouldn't have done this, but that's the reality so what now?

Say what now?

 

[JB805]

you seriously think club records matter that much in the long run, don't you. I get that a lot of parents live and die with their child's team records, but you all have a problem. I think your testosterone levels may be too high, need to test you for something...

Add your desire to win "fairly" with your fairly obvious transphobia, and you get a special sort of something...

No, I don't think that club records matter at all - actually. Where did I say anything about winning fairly? Hell, where did I say anything about winning or competition at all?

 

[Grace T.]

Say what now?

IIUC, in California you can choose "nonbinary" as your gender now. In part because of California, the federal government is moving so your passport can be labeled with a gender of "X". The primary way of assigning people to "girls" and "boys" and proper age tiers is birth certificates. Where are we going to put the people with nonbinary? You can't just say everyone who isn't an "f" goes boys league, because California has also loosened the terms for changing your gender on your birth certificate, not to mention you are conceeding a ftm can play with the girls for as long as they don't change their papers.

That leaves meh let's come up with some loose guidelines and trust people to adhere to them, let's do physical exams (in which case be prepared for your GOAT to be challenged to a physical exam before the championship game), let's do genetic/blood tests, or let's do testosterone tests (which also catch the steroid cheaters). If you aren't already doing testosterone checks for cheaters, it's probably not a big deal enough to warrant anything more than "meh let's come up with some loose guidelines and trust people to adhere to them"

 

[mlx]

It's in the interest of women's sports to keep the compeition fair and not make it a laughing stock within the professional sports community...and to try and stay away from the vagueness of gender vs the quantifiable ID of sex at birth. There are outlyer medical conditions that contradict but those are few and far between.

It's a difficult and uncomfortable subject for some/many. Coed teams up to certain ages aren't a big deal. Puberty/hormones are the line in the sand and are so obvioss if you ever seen an elite U16/U17 girls team take on a U16/U17 boy's second team. I've never seen a close game and the differences are glaringly obvious. Size and strength matter and usually wins when bodies clash.

Everything has to have context.

I can see how a few trans women winning world championship can be a problem and deserves its own conversation.

On the other side, we should NOT get our panties in a bunch that a 10 year old trans girl is the most happy kid playing with her friends for the Brentwood Unicorns or whatever in socal.

 

[VanMan]

Either that or come up with some kind of trans eligibility guidelines.

US Soccer did this some time ago.

https://www.ussoccer.com/governance/bylaws

Policy 601-5, Section 6. Numbered page 55, page 58 of the pdf file.

Many clubs and state associations cite the exact language in their Inclusion Policies.

 

[JB805]

US Soccer did this some time ago.

https://www.ussoccer.com/governance/bylaws

Policy 601-5, Section 6. Numbered page 55, page 58 of the pdf file.

Many clubs and state associations cite the exact language in their Inclusion Policies.

The original question posed was should the sanctioning bodies sanction transgender players. If I had seen this previously (I hadn't) then I would have said absolutely. Easy enough.

 

[Soccer Dad & Ref]

US Soccer did this some time ago.

https://www.ussoccer.com/governance/bylaws

Policy 601-5, Section 6. Numbered page 55, page 58 of the pdf file.

Many clubs and state associations cite the exact language in their Inclusion Policies.

So simple, yet, perfect. No need for testing a 14 year old kid.

Professionals - WHOLE different game. (and your 17 year old ECNL player isn't professional, and their season record isn't going to impact their status in life when they are 30)

 

[Woodwork]

I would start watching NWSL if they allowed trans players without restriction. I currently don't watch NWSL.

I don't care about some worse player getting pushed to the bench or off the first team. A bad professional player's right to be on the team is always subservient to my need for a team to provide entertainment in exchange for ticket dollars. The NWSL should do whatever makes it the most money. This is consistent with my staunch republican belief that the government should stay out of it and the free market should decide.

Also maybe an unpopular belief but I find USWNT boring. Don't need to see them beating Thailand 15-0 or whatever. Do whatever it takes to make that less boring and I'll watch.

I don't watch design or fashion shows. Boring. I'll take Ru Paul's Drag Race any day, though. Entertainment!

 

[dad4]

So throw the whole system out because there's like a 0.001% chance there's an MTF trans kid on the other team.

Roughly 2% of kids identify as trans. Why would it be only 0.001% for athletes?

 

[Woodwork]

Roughly 2% of kids identify as trans. Why would it be only 0.001% for athletes?

Perhaps going on current observation. It won't be one to one trying to change teams to the general population. Some would prefer to stay with their current team. Arguing about the exact percent isn't the point. The main thing is people are complaining about something that we don't know is a significant problem.

Give it a try and see how it goes.

 

[dad4]

The original question posed was should the sanctioning bodies sanction transgender players. If I had seen this previously (I hadn't) then I would have said absolutely. Easy enough.

View attachment 14560

Sincerely held belief with no limits on testosterone? This policy won’t last 10 years.

For U17 or U19, if you put five competent MTF athletes on the any ECNL team, they’d win nationals every time. That is, until some other team finds six.

 

[Woodwork]

Sincerely held belief with no limits on testosterone? This policy won’t last 10 years.

For U17 or U19, if you put five competent MTF athletes on the any ECNL team, they’d win nationals every time. That is, until some other team finds six.

Speculation. Fear. Panic.

I want to see how it plays out.

Try it. You might like it.