CSL Strong???

[notintheface]

they labeled it flight 1 for parents to think their kids are moving up.

Come on. If you truly believe there is no difference between flight 2 and flight 1 then it's like everyone telling you the sky is blue and you refusing to take them at face value, it's just not worth the effort to get through to you. Youngers flight 2 is where teams work hard on their game. Youngers flight 1 is where the great teams play against great competition. The olders flights are probably excessive but look, olders need parity more than anything in order to keep their development and competitive edge going.

CSL doesn't lie to you.

Okay everyone, I found the Coast admin!

 

[lafalafa]

Coast soccer will likely always have a niche and good for them to provide a platform and league for teams to play in.

The #strong... this is being used in marketing a bunch nowadays and everyone wants to portray themselves as....some...strong...

Forget about the comparison saying a xyz league flight is equivalent to another league bracket called uvw. It's all alphabet soup and there is no real hierarchical system in youth soccer besides a marketing one. Flatter or holacratic in real teams where things are based on what clubs are members of what leagues.

 

[Emma]

Come on. If you truly believe there is no difference between flight 2 and flight 1 then it's like everyone telling you the sky is blue and you refusing to take them at face value, it's just not worth the effort to get through to you. Youngers flight 2 is where teams work hard on their game. Youngers flight 1 is where the great teams play against great competition. The olders flights are probably excessive but look, olders need parity more than anything in order to keep their development and competitive edge going.



Okay everyone, I found the Coast admin!

I'm not saying there's no difference between flight 1 and flight 2 by the time you get to 11v11 (but it's a lot less than you think), what I'm saying is your flight 1 is actually flight 5 or 6 relabeled to make parents think their kids have improved to a flight 1 level. If your kid's team improved to a flight 1 level, they should be playing ECNL or Discovery (based on the club access). If your kid is still at flight 1 (scdsl labeling) at 11 v 11, your kid is still at at least a flight 3 or less level.

And taking my words out of context is silly. We're discussing the merits of the CSL pro/rel system. I hope CSL does pay me for making this argument in support of them. Please DM me if you can pay me. I need the extra coffee money.

 

[futboldad1]

with presidio my DDs did never play in Coast SL but I remember the league was a real power house 10 years ago and still competitive even 5 years ago...... a lot has changed since then...................

 

[Grace T.]

Your reality isn't true bc the flight 1 you think your team is in...is actually flight 5 or 6 at SCDSL but they labeled it flight 1 for parents to think their kids are moving up. Your kids haven't moved up in that scenario, your kid is in the same flight but with a different name. CSL doesn't lie to you. If your at bronze, you're at bronze level until you improve enough to move forward. It's ok to do so.

ECNL=flight 1
ECRL=flight 2
DISCOVERY=flight 3
CHAMPIONS=flight 4
Europa = flight 5
Flight 1= Flight 6

I've seen teams break up and I've seen teams stay together that do not move up. When teams break up, it's all for the same reasons, (1) bad coach, (2)the kids aren't a good combination of skills or personality together or (3) the parents are too toxic. Teams should break up if 6 kids are very good and 6 kids are very bad. You can't keep them together at 11 v 11 because those 6 good kids can't cover for the 6 bad kids at 11 v 11. If the six good kids want to play more challenging teams, they have to change their teammates at 11 v 11.

re CSL doesn’t lie to you, yes it does. Because if most teams are average the vast majority would be silver/silver elite. Instead if you look at the pyramid the vast majority of teams for u12 boys are bronze. One of this reasons this is done isn’t for sorting but to keep competition local so parents at the lower levels don’t have to drive as much. But if it’s about making teams better, you shouldn’t have new teams playing existing bronze teams and there would be 6 or 7 levels as in Europe none labeled things like gold/silver/bronze medal colors.

 

[PracticeWYpreach]

I'm not saying there's no difference between flight 1 and flight 2 by the time you get to 11v11 (but it's a lot less than you think), what I'm saying is your flight 1 is actually flight 5 or 6 relabeled to make parents think their kids have improved to a flight 1 level. If your kid's team improved to a flight 1 level, they should be playing ECNL or Discovery (based on the club access). If your kid is still at flight 1 (scdsl labeling) at 11 v 11, your kid is still at at least a flight 3 or less level.

And taking my words out of context is silly. We're discussing the merits of the CSL pro/rel system. I hope CSL does pay me for making this argument in support of them. Please DM me if you can pay me. I need the extra coffee money.

Isn't CSL the same thing? Top clubs leaving for the other top leagues and then gold, silver elite, silver, bronze? I personally like the pro/rel system at the top level like SCDSL is implementing this year. But I agree at the younger middle levels it really isn't that important.

 

[SoccerFan4Life]

- I see the value of CSL in terms of making it fair with relegation and promotion and maybe this works with the older groups.
There is one important factor to consider and that's speed of play. Ive seen with my kids over the past 10 years that they learn to play faster and better if they get moved up and challenged against tougher competition. If we keep a young player in bronze or silver for a long period of time, this could create a false sense of ability and skill.

Recently, my dd played a scrimmage with a high level team and I recognized that she adapted and started playing faster. In a way, SCDSL does allow players to develop when they move up. My complaint with SCDSL is that they need to eliminate so many tiers at the flight 1 level. Eliminate discovery and just keep it to Flight 1 Champion and Flight 1 Europa. CSL also has too many tiers (5) and they should stick with 4 max.

 

[Woodwork]

Your link is to 2009s. Take a look again.

Oops. So the team that lost 10-0 was promoted from the top 3 of Silver. Probably lost key players but went Silver Elite anyway.

Not sure what your point is. Sometimes teams, despite their best effort, have an issue during the season. It doesn't justify a team that couldn't finish at the top of F2 deliberately choosing to lose in F1 by 10 points for "development." Even if the team thought they were getting something out of it, the opponent doesn't. I say no to this.

Also, something to appreciate about CSL: They don't even really give a top flight credential to youngers. That's right kids - don't let your heads get too big. You still have work to do.

 

[Woodwork]

re CSL doesn’t lie to you, yes it does. Because if most teams are average the vast majority would be silver/silver elite. Instead if you look at the pyramid the vast majority of teams for u12 boys are bronze. One of this reasons this is done isn’t for sorting but to keep competition local so parents at the lower levels don’t have to drive as much. But if it’s about making teams better, you shouldn’t have new teams playing existing bronze teams and there would be 6 or 7 levels as in Europe none labeled things like gold/silver/bronze medal colors.

Maybe Bronze is for average teams. Its kind of a point of pride in CSL to be in Silver or Silver Elite because it is earned. It is an SCDSL thing to think you should advance a flight just by virtue of existing long enough as a team.

CSL has, at the older ages, 5 levels. But the top three levels are not really that far apart.

 

[Emma]

[Q. UOTE="Grace T., post: 394625, member: 2423"]
re CSL doesn’t lie to you, yes it does. Because if most teams are average the vast majority would be silver/silver elite. Instead if you look at the pyramid the vast majority of teams for u12 boys are bronze. One of this reasons this is done isn’t for sorting but to keep competition local so parents at the lower levels don’t have to drive as much. But if it’s about making teams better, you shouldn’t have new teams playing existing bronze teams and there would be 6 or 7 levels as in Europe none labeled things like gold/silver/bronze medal colors.
[/QUOTE]
I'm sure CSL lies to you occasionally like any league does. I'm just referring to the level the teams are playing at. CSL requires team to earn their promotion, not just belong to large clubs or relabel levels to appease parents.

Keeping competition close by at the lower levels is a good thing. Leagues don't develop players. Individual players, teammates, friends, coaches, trainers, and parents help develop players. League just organizes appropriate level games in appropriate locations. However, bronze teams are now thinking they should drive 50 mil

If your kid is playing at bronze level, put your effort into taking your kid to the nearest park to kick around rather than drive the extra 50 miles to play a team that might be slightly better than the team 5 miles away. The time is better spent on individual or team training than driving the extra 45 miles.

If there are 6-7 flights, it's fine too. My problem with SCDSL is there's no true pro/rel and the larger clubs decide where they want to put teams rather than where they deserve to be at. I do commend them for trying to do this at the higher levels but they won't do this at the lower levels because parents need their kids to be in flight 1 by 11 v 11 to continue with soccer but flight 1 is actually flight 6 and that's the part I don't like.

CSL levels are below and then divided into locations.
1. Premier
2. Gold
3. Silver Elite
4. Silver
5. Bronze

Then Rec

Most teams play at the Silver level, not bronze. I agree that they should label it Flight 1, 2, 3 , 4, 5 but CSL's labeling system is more clear than ECNL, ECRL, Discovery, Champions, Europa, Flight 1

Disclosure - my children no longer play at CSL but I still prefer the CSL flighting system because it gives a more accurate representation of a team's improvement than the constant addition of higher flights.

 

[Emma]

Isn't CSL the same thing? Top clubs leaving for the other top leagues and then gold, silver elite, silver, bronze? I personally like the pro/rel system at the top level like SCDSL is implementing this year. But I agree at the younger middle levels it really isn't that important.

Grace, notintheface, and I are just arguing the merits of CSL rel/pro (with petitioning ability) vs. relabeling flights to give parents a false sense of vast improvement by big clubs.

 

[PracticeWYpreach]

Only counter to that is that the larger clubs move their players up and down to form their competitive teams. So the teams don't necessarily stay the same every year. So is ECNL/ECRL a part of SCDSL? I thought the top teams of any league joined ECNL/ECRL/GA, and then teams decided to either play coast or SCDSL. But then again I am new and am still learning.

 

[Emma]

Only counter to that is that the larger clubs move their players up and down to form their competitive teams. So the teams don't necessarily stay the same every year. So is ECNL/ECRL a part of SCDSL? I thought the top teams of any league joined ECNL/ECRL/GA, and then teams decided to either play coast or SCDSL. But then again I am new and am still learning.

Top teams from any league can NOT join ECNL or GA. ECNL and GAL are monopolies for the clubs that formed the league or clubs that get big and strong enough to join. You don't get into ECNL because your team is good enough, you get in because your club is big enough for ECNL to add you or you were part of the founding members of ECNL. My children are in monopolies but I wish they weren't monopolies and would allow 4 team to play in every year and relegate teams if they are performing below a certain level, not neccesarily according to wins but how close the games are. If a team loses with mostly 6-0 to 12-0 scores, relegate them unless they pick up better players/coach to win the play in games.

Big clubs as well as small clubs generally have player change, that's why CSL does allow a petition based on changes or circumstances but at it's core, it relies on team performance.

 

[Grace T.]

Maybe Bronze is for average teams. Its kind of a point of pride in CSL to be in Silver or Silver Elite because it is earned. It is an SCDSL thing to think you should advance a flight just by virtue of existing long enough as a team.

CSL has, at the older ages, 5 levels. But the top three levels are not really that far apart.

If it's for an "average" team then it would be in the middle of the tiers since there are also new teams and disasters of teams.

 

[Grace T.]

I
Most teams play at the Silver level, not bronze. I agree that they should label it Flight 1, 2, 3 , 4, 5 but CSL's labeling system is more clear than ECNL, ECRL, Discovery, Champions, Europa, Flight 1

Disclosure - my children no longer play at CSL but I still prefer the CSL flighting system because it gives a more accurate representation of a team's improvement than the constant addition of higher flights.

At U11, U12, U13 most teams absolutely do not play at silver (at least on the boys side). Look at the regions on line. That's simply not true. There are a ton more at the bronze. Silver may have a few more teams in them but there are far more bronze than silver. At the upper ages it's that many of those bronze teams just go away and dissolve....all the good kids having moved on....all the rest having given up.

 

[Grace T.]

Its kind of a point of pride in CSL to be in Silver or Silver Elite because it is earned.

Further, the thing about "earning" levels makes no sense because of the churn NOTIF talked about. Assume he's right and the churn is about 20% on an average team. On a bronze or relegated team it may be more because families leave a situation where all the games are lost (thinking the coaches aren't developing the players) and on a team that's advanced maybe a little less (because clearly then the coach is doing a good job), though coaches may use the opportunity to engage in recruiting upgrades and cut the weaker kids to make the team even stronger and advance yet another level. In addition kids move, their interests change, financial circumstances may force them to drop out.. So by the time you get to U14, the team is completely different from U9. My son's former United team (which won one of the state cups) has when last I checked 5 or 6 players from the original squad. So what exactly has the U14 "earned"....that it wasn't relegated despite the fact that CSL and the clubs bend over backward to not relegate unless everyone agree it's in the best interest?....that it was really good at recruitment and recruited top kids and upgraded others? The team that earned the silver or silver elite title couple be proud of that, but there's no "dance with the one that brung you" rule. That U14 is a completely different team from the one that started, and may have even gone through a couple coaches. How less arbitrary is that then just having the coaches decide let's play x level???

 

[Woodwork]

If it's for an "average" team then it would be in the middle of the tiers since there are also new teams and disasters of teams.

Its up to CSL whether to put Silver or SE in the middle of the bell curve. You want it to be, I get that. But, suppose for a second it isn't.
They usually promote the top 3 or so teams in the group each year, but there isn't anywhere to demote the "disasters" as you call them. If it is promoting the exceptional ones but not demoting the unexceptional ones, it is going to be the largest group by default.

 

[Grace T.]

Its up to CSL whether to put Silver or SE in the middle of the bell curve. You want it to be, I get that. But, suppose for a second it isn't.
They usually promote the top 3 or so teams in the group each year, but there isn't anywhere to demote the "disasters" as you call them. If it is promoting the exceptional ones but not demoting the unexceptional ones, it is going to be the largest group by default.

You promote anyone that’s been around more than 2 years out of the bottom tier making it clear it’s for new teams (or teams in the penultimate tier that loses more than 50% of its players and are effectively new). If a team still has an exceptionally bad record (most such teams will have exploded) you allow them to play there too. If a team has an exceptionally good tournament season before you allow them to start the penultimate tier to avoid 15-0 monsters like my sons United team. It also eliminates the stigma of the lower tier( they can’t recruit good players because they are “just bronze”) and you have 3 intermediate tiers (for a total of 6-7 tiers). It would involve more driving and it would mean in the penultimate tier there would be very few games against disaster teams. Except for exceptional circumstances of voluntary relegation or a team reforming, there wouldn’t be relegation to the new tier. I’d also impose a dance with the one that brung you rule the first year of a teams promotion to levels higher than penultimate. Top teams in the new division skip penulrimate.

 

[Emma]

At U11, U12, U13 most teams absolutely do not play at silver (at least on the boys side). Look at the regions on line. That's simply not true. There are a ton more at the bronze. Silver may have a few more teams in them but there are far more bronze than silver. At the upper ages it's that many of those bronze teams just go away and dissolve....all the good kids having moved on....all the rest having given up.

Three reasons for reduction of teams: (1) teams consolidate at u13 to go 11 v 11 (2) players start to move to MLS Next and ECNL teams and (3) kids start picking their favorite sports to play, which is generally the one they are good at and if there skills haven't developed passed bronze level and they've been playing for 5/6 years, they probably won't stay if their parents are looking for a college scholarship.

I agree with you that more teams are in bronze at the younger ages but that makes sense because only a few teams should move up every year. If you think CSL should add an additional flight between the bronze and silver level, like bronze elite for teams that come in 3rd-5th place , I can agree with that. Whatever the number of flights needed, the movement should be based on merit and not additional top flights added every year. The addition of the flights should be based on where it is needed and maybe in CSL's case an additional flight or two is needed between the silver and bronze level.

 

[espola]

Further, the thing about "earning" levels makes no sense because of the churn NOTIF talked about. Assume he's right and the churn is about 20% on an average team. On a bronze or relegated team it may be more because families leave a situation where all the games are lost (thinking the coaches aren't developing the players) and on a team that's advanced maybe a little less (because clearly then the coach is doing a good job), though coaches may use the opportunity to engage in recruiting upgrades and cut the weaker kids to make the team even stronger and advance yet another level. In addition kids move, their interests change, financial circumstances may force them to drop out.. So by the time you get to U14, the team is completely different from U9. My son's former United team (which won one of the state cups) has when last I checked 5 or 6 players from the original squad. So what exactly has the U14 "earned"....that it wasn't relegated despite the fact that CSL and the clubs bend over backward to not relegate unless everyone agree it's in the best interest?....that it was really good at recruitment and recruited top kids and upgraded others? The team that earned the silver or silver elite title couple be proud of that, but there's no "dance with the one that brung you" rule. That U14 is a completely different team from the one that started, and may have even gone through a couple coaches. How less arbitrary is that then just having the coaches decide let's play x level???

Line them all up and let St. Luigi Scrosopi seed the circuits.

Or you can let logic help --

Assign each team to a small group at the beginning of the season. After a few games (3 for groups of 4) determine 1-2-3-4 in each group by whatever the league rules and tiebreakers are. Reform the group so #1 plays in a group of #1s down to #4 plays in a group of #4s. Repeat a few times until it is clear who the persistent winners are. Bracket #1 to #4 for a league playoff (or more for a longer playoff as the calendar permits).

 

[Porkchop]

What I don't understand is how a team can be silver 04 Fourth in bracket can take over a 03 Gold team for the current season ?or a new team can saying it's going to be Gold or Premier next season?