CSL Strong???

Grace T. said:
An 8 year old shouldn't be learning keeper tactics (difference between can and should too)....even as a keeper there are too many other things to learn first (beginning with safety) and the 8 year old shouldn't be playing in goal full time and should be learning how to be a soccer player first. He can learn yes...but let's wait 2 years at a minimum.
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There is no "shouldn't" (except perhaps in an AYSO-friendly coaching manual).
 
espola said:
But no "true" keeper is elite? Right?
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Once again you have it backwards (as always). The fallacy would apply if I set the standard with a high bar. For example...yeah they can pass but can they tip over bar. You aren’t an elite goalkeeper unless you can tip over bar. The discussion here is competence in the basic skills of goalkeeping for which kids will not have trained for more than once a week for about a years time (give it take 6 months) while they will have been training general soccer skills as early as age 3 or 4 if the parents like
 
Grace T. said:
Once again you have it backwards (as always). The fallacy would apply if I set the standard with a high bar. For example...yeah they can pass but can they tip over bar. You aren’t an elite goalkeeper unless you can tip over bar. The discussion here is competence in the basic skills of goalkeeping for which kids will not have trained for more than once a week for about a years time (give it take 6 months) while they will have been training general soccer skills as early as age 3 or 4 if the parents like
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My neighbor's son was the worst soccer player in his AYSO team at age 7-8. They pulled him out of soccer. When he turned 12, the kid decided that he wanted to play again. He started at defense and then moved to goali at age 13. With 3 years of 5 days a week training and dedication, he made it to the Seattle Sounders Academy and then moved on to play at an Ivy League school ( Academics was his priority).

My point being is that at a younger age, it's rare to really say a certain kid will be an elite player.
 
Grace T. said:
Kids train soccer as young as 3 and 4. It is possible that by 8/9 you have some kids that are better at it than others. You might even have some unicorns that are really good at it. They don’t start to train goalkeeping until age 8, most good coaches won’t take em before 9. As one of my sons trainers once told a parent of a little one: happy to take your money if you insist but at this age it would be a waste of time....teach them to play soccer first. He wouldn’t take my kid until age 9. Unlike field work you can execute the basics of field play at age 8. You cannot do the same with goalkeeping work. Assume they start age 8...gotten really good at the basics in 1 year with classes once a week? Even if their dad is a college level or pro gk that takes them out every day it’s hard because the physical skills are just really different. And at 10 the kid who is learning to dive but is still letting goals fly past them is more advanced than the athletic kid running around playing like a defender and foot stopping everything even though the later will save more goals and be told he’s a natural in the position.

As for ayso yes I’m sure that played into it. I was involved in our regions discussions when they removed the goalkeepers. The parents complained the loudest...the scores would be too high if the team had a unicorn shooter. But the rational was why sacrifice a kid in the position since unless the ball is shot straight at them the kids can never do anything to stop the ball. The Spanish dont play with goalkeepers either until u9.
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My son started playing indoor peewee at age 4, where there wasn't really a goalkeeper, just a small goal. He insisted on getting a keeper jersey and gloves at age 6 when he was playing Div 7 Rec because he wanted to work out in the club's weekly skill clinic. He had the advantage of a retired pro keeper as coach and learning by watching and imitating the older kids. He and another kid in the league got so good at running the ball up from the keeper position that the club changed the rules the next year.
 
SoccerFan4Life said:
My neighbor's son was the worst soccer player in his AYSO team at age 7-8. They pulled him out of soccer. When he turned 12, the kid decided that he wanted to play again. He started at defense and then moved to goali at age 13. With 3 years of 5 days a week training and dedication, he made it to the Seattle Sounders Academy and then moved on to play at an Ivy League school ( Academics was his priority).

My point being is that at a younger age, it's rare to really say a certain kid will be an elite player.
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That’s really impressive particularly how late he started, even with natural skill, given the amount there is to learn.

I’m even more impressed he was able to ivy with the demanding soccer schedule of an academy
 
espola said:
My son started playing indoor peewee at age 4, where there wasn't really a goalkeeper, just a small goal. He insisted on getting a keeper jersey and gloves at age 6 when he was playing Div 7 Rec because he wanted to work out in the club's weekly skill clinic. He had the advantage of a retired pro keeper as coach and learning by watching and imitating the older kids. He and another kid in the league got so good at running the ball up from the keeper position that the club changed the rules the next year.
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So he was elite level gk by age 9?
 
Grace T. said:
Back at ya...particularly given the era you were active
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I admit that I have never been a certified referee (although I took and passed the written test once while waiting for my boys' class to finish, and I used to act as an AR when my kid's teams were practicing plays close to the offside line). I have a lot of other bases covered from ages 12 or so to 70+.
 
espola said:
Did you look up "no true Scotsman" yet?
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Don't have to. It's a basic fallacy and I answered you. By your avoidance of the question, what your son seems to be doing is in a very small goal doing some defending, "running the ball up", and doing some imitation. I don't know how you get from there to elite goalkeeping at age 9. What's the opposite of the true Scotsman fallacy (honest question....I don't know)?

"No true Scotsman drinks whiskey with soda".
"But my uncle drinks soda. True Scotsmen can drink soda."
 
Grace T. said:
Don't have to. It's a basic fallacy and I answered you. By your avoidance of the question, what your son seems to be doing is in a very small goal doing some defending, "running the ball up", and doing some imitation. I don't know how you get from there to elite goalkeeping at age 9. What's the opposite of the true Scotsman fallacy (honest question....I don't know)?

"No true Scotsman drinks whiskey with soda".
"But my uncle drinks soda. True Scotsmen can drink soda."
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In the midst of your denial you provide an example.
 
espola said:
In the midst of your denial you provide an example.
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You always lose the thread, don't you? The example is the opposite fallacy (which is what you are doing). The Scotsman Fallacy would read:

"No true Scotsman drinks whiskey with soda"
"By my uncle, a true Scotsman, drinks Whiskey with soda."
"But no true Scotsman drinks whiskey with soda"

That's not this. The Scotsman fallacy would be if I argued for a higher bar: only true goalkeepers extension dive for example. Here's it's a low bar....the basic skills involved in goalkeeping which a. are not trained at that age by most (or have been trained only for a short time so everyone is a "beginner"), b. their bodies aren't physically mature to master, and c. their minds struggle to comprehend. There's also the shoulda of it all that kids shouldn't be full time goalkeepers before U13 and should be rotating in U10.
 
Grace T. said:
You always lose the thread, don't you? The example is the opposite fallacy (which is what you are doing). The Scotsman Fallacy would read:

"No true Scotsman drinks whiskey with soda"
"By my uncle, a true Scotsman, drinks Whiskey with soda."
"But no true Scotsman drinks whiskey with soda"

That's not this. The Scotsman fallacy would be if I argued for a higher bar: only true goalkeepers extension dive for example. Here's it's a low bar....the basic skills involved in goalkeeping which a. are not trained at that age by most (or have been trained only for a short time so everyone is a "beginner"), b. their bodies aren't physically mature to master, and c. their minds struggle to comprehend. There's also the shoulda of it all that kids shouldn't be full time goalkeepers before U13 and should be rotating in U10.
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I have nothing new to offer. You're just repeating your empty positions.
 
Grace T. said:
Kids train soccer as young as 3 and 4. It is possible that by 8/9 you have some kids that are better at it than others. You might even have some unicorns that are really good at it. They don’t start to train goalkeeping until age 8, most good coaches won’t take em before 9. As one of my sons trainers once told a parent of a little one: happy to take your money if you insist but at this age it would be a waste of time....teach them to play soccer first. He wouldn’t take my kid until age 9. Unlike field work you can execute the basics of field play at age 8. You cannot do the same with goalkeeping work. Assume they start age 8...gotten really good at the basics in 1 year with classes once a week? Even if their dad is a college level or pro gk that takes them out every day it’s hard because the physical skills are just really different. And at 10 the kid who is learning to dive but is still letting goals fly past them is more advanced than the athletic kid running around playing like a defender and foot stopping everything even though the later will save more goals and be told he’s a natural in the position.

As for ayso yes I’m sure that played into it. I was involved in our regions discussions when they removed the goalkeepers. The parents complained the loudest...the scores would be too high if the team had a unicorn shooter. But the rational was why sacrifice a kid in the position since unless the ball is shot straight at them the kids can never do anything to stop the ball. The Spanish dont play with goalkeepers either until u9.
Click to expand...

I don’t get why you associate the skill of the player with what makes them elite. You are making it way too difficult, an elite player is one that is clearly above the peers, simple. Every player has different strengths and weaknesses, it’s those that have more strengths that are better. If you took the top u10 keepers in the world and put them up against a bunch of rec players in keeper wars, who would win. Those players are at an Elite level compared to some Rec kid. Why is that hard to understand?

The funny thing is, by your own premise, it must be easy then to become an elite keeper. If you don’t start training until u10/u11 and by u17 be considered elite, wow, maybe more kids should try and become an elite keeper???? Compare that to a kid whose been playing since they were 3 and u10 they can’t even start to sniff the elite level, they’ve already been at it 6 or 7 years.

If it were that hard to be an elite GK they be demanding the highest salary? Nope, look at what players get paid the most...Very few want to play keeper, that’s why there aren’t many of them, and it’s evident by salary and how long it takes to develop that it is easier than being a field player.

Keeper parents
 
I’ll drop this non seqitor into your going’s on about 9 yo keepers...

i lived in Germany as a teen back when soccer balls worn down to kinda suede leather, absorbed wet so were heavy. I didn’t know anything about soccer and ran my ass off for two weeks of tryouts. Coach stuck me in goal - I was tall, fast, agile couldcover ground. I’d come home pummeled and covered in mud and scrapes from the dirt / gravel field we were on. Never forget trying to stop balls in the chest and catch them with bare hands.

Anyway after enduring that for the last week of tryouts I got cut.
 
soccersc said:
I don’t get why you associate the skill of the player with what makes them elite. You are making it way too difficult, an elite player is one that is clearly above the peers, simple. Every player has different strengths and weaknesses, it’s those that have more strengths that are better. If you took the top u10 keepers in the world and put them up against a bunch of rec players in keeper wars, who would win. Those players are at an Elite level compared to some Rec kid. Why is that hard to understand?

The funny thing is, by your own premise, it must be easy then to become an elite keeper. If you don’t start training until u10/u11 and by u17 be considered elite, wow, maybe more kids should try and become an elite keeper???? Compare that to a kid whose been playing since they were 3 and u10 they can’t even start to sniff the elite level, they’ve already been at it 6 or 7 years.

If it were that hard to be an elite GK they be demanding the highest salary? Nope, look at what players get paid the most...Very few want to play keeper, that’s why there aren’t many of them, and it’s evident by salary and how long it takes to develop that it is easier than being a field player.

Keeper parents
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Whereto start?

1. Make it simple then. You can't have an elite keeper because at age 8 and 9 all keepers are beginners and they should be part timers. That's not true of the field players since some kids have been training since age 3 or 4.
2. Are there kids that are better? Sure, but the criteria at that age for goalkeepers is different. Why? Because the more advanced kid at that age will actually be giving up more goals. We are sort of constrained here by the parameters originally set by Emma which was there is a distinction between the "superior" players playing on higher level teams than on the lower level teams. Espola's point that there could be superior players playing on lower level teams is actually equally valid, but that's not where this long winded side debate began with Emma's post.
3. Soccer development is not linear. Much like physical growth in kids, it comes it spurts and stops. One of the biggest spurts for the goalkeepers comes with puberty. For the boys, being able to touch the cross bar is actually very useful in ability to stop goals.
4. There isn't a shortage of keepers on the boys side...that's mostly true of the non-elite levels for girls. There are a shortage of trained keepers on the boys side but there are keepers a plenty.
5. The amount of stuff a GK needs to learn just simply exceeds that of a field player. They need to learn soccer + the goalkeeping skills. So yes, it is very hard to be an elite GK at the highest levels. They also have a shorter time period to learn it all, particularly if they start late, which makes it all the more impressive.
6. The salary stuff is an irrelevancy. You assume that soccer is actually a meritocracy (it isn't). If you read soccernomics, you'll see that the goalkeeper actually ads only mediocre value to a team because they can only stop (some) of the shots and so are only reducing a hole the team is in. To win, the team needs to score. That's why those up front pull in the highest salary. It's basic market economics.

Typical field player parent.
 
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