CSL Strong???

Grace T. said:
There are certain basic skills a goalkeeper has to master at the basic levels. They include: catching, diving, distribution, playing with the feet, stance, and positional play. I'm excluding here higher level stuff like tipping over bar or extension diving. This is the basics. At age 10, their bodies simply aren't wired to do it and they don't have enough training to successfully execute it. Yes, you can have a superathletic kid that does a good job at one particular aspect of the play....that doesn't make him elite because they don't have the training. A reputable GK trainer won't even start training a GK before age 8/9...there's no point....they can't safely execute the very basics of the moves without hurting themselves. And at U10 the expectation really should just be try and block the stuff that's shot right at you.
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I am frequently amazed at how constrained your view of the soccer world has been.
 
soccersc said:
haha...that made me laugh a little, must be coming from a gk parent!! Have you even played in the midfield in a competitive soccer game or understand tactics from an attacking position? We can agree to disagree, but there are an incredible amount of tactics and technique that even the best u10 field players are missing. They aren't even close to having what they need to be an elite player at u18, I find it interesting that you feel a u10 field player can possess the skills to be Elite but a GK at that age can't. You kinda have to laugh at that!!!

I guess at a u10 game you can see players positioning themselves inside the pocket, or knowing when to switch channels, or checking their shoulder to know when a man is coming and then knowing which direction to take their touch to give themselves more time, or understand when to dummy a pass for their teammate, or when they need to ping a ball or how to weight a pass, how to create numerical advantages...I've got to see those u10 games, they would be fun to watch.

And the reason AYSO doesn't have goalkeepers is because they want to promote scoring, and they understand goals are what keep kids in the game. Go talk to a uLittle, first thing they tell you about is if they scored a goal and the first thing a grandpa ask a kid who plays soccer is "did you score any goals?"
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Kids train soccer as young as 3 and 4. It is possible that by 8/9 you have some kids that are better at it than others. You might even have some unicorns that are really good at it. They don’t start to train goalkeeping until age 8, most good coaches won’t take em before 9. As one of my sons trainers once told a parent of a little one: happy to take your money if you insist but at this age it would be a waste of time....teach them to play soccer first. He wouldn’t take my kid until age 9. Unlike field work you can execute the basics of field play at age 8. You cannot do the same with goalkeeping work. Assume they start age 8...gotten really good at the basics in 1 year with classes once a week? Even if their dad is a college level or pro gk that takes them out every day it’s hard because the physical skills are just really different. And at 10 the kid who is learning to dive but is still letting goals fly past them is more advanced than the athletic kid running around playing like a defender and foot stopping everything even though the later will save more goals and be told he’s a natural in the position.

As for ayso yes I’m sure that played into it. I was involved in our regions discussions when they removed the goalkeepers. The parents complained the loudest...the scores would be too high if the team had a unicorn shooter. But the rational was why sacrifice a kid in the position since unless the ball is shot straight at them the kids can never do anything to stop the ball. The Spanish dont play with goalkeepers either until u9.
 
Grace T. said:
No I'm saying that at U10 they aren't just missing the higher level stuff, they are missing the basics. You might have a natural that is better at some aspects (maybe the kid can kick real far, for example), but what they are doing isn't really goalkeeping technique. There are 4 archetypes for goalkeepers at this age (at least on the boys side):

1. The super big kid. Put in goal because may not be able to play the field as well and just blocks more of it. Unless puberty is kind, that kid won't be playing at U13, because at that age they need to start extension diving and you can't do it without being more athletic.
2. The super athletic kid. Can block shots directly shot at them and hustles for the loose ball and maybe plays out of the box. Still, what they are doing isn't "goalkeeping"....it's defending in front of the goal.
3. The wanna be goalkeeper. Is doing goalkeeper training but their trainer is teaching them to dive safely, not effectively. You may see them dive but balls are still sailing past him. May give up more goals than 2, but this kid is actually more advanced than 2.
4. The rotater. Coach doing it right...rotating a bunch of kids through goals to give them some experience, see who has talent, and who might want to continue it after U9/U10 to get them some training.
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But no "true" keeper is elite? Right?
 
Grace T. said:
An 8 year old shouldn't be learning keeper tactics (difference between can and should too)....even as a keeper there are too many other things to learn first (beginning with safety) and the 8 year old shouldn't be playing in goal full time and should be learning how to be a soccer player first. He can learn yes...but let's wait 2 years at a minimum.
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There is no "shouldn't" (except perhaps in an AYSO-friendly coaching manual).
 
espola said:
But no "true" keeper is elite? Right?
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Once again you have it backwards (as always). The fallacy would apply if I set the standard with a high bar. For example...yeah they can pass but can they tip over bar. You aren’t an elite goalkeeper unless you can tip over bar. The discussion here is competence in the basic skills of goalkeeping for which kids will not have trained for more than once a week for about a years time (give it take 6 months) while they will have been training general soccer skills as early as age 3 or 4 if the parents like
 
Grace T. said:
Once again you have it backwards (as always). The fallacy would apply if I set the standard with a high bar. For example...yeah they can pass but can they tip over bar. You aren’t an elite goalkeeper unless you can tip over bar. The discussion here is competence in the basic skills of goalkeeping for which kids will not have trained for more than once a week for about a years time (give it take 6 months) while they will have been training general soccer skills as early as age 3 or 4 if the parents like
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My neighbor's son was the worst soccer player in his AYSO team at age 7-8. They pulled him out of soccer. When he turned 12, the kid decided that he wanted to play again. He started at defense and then moved to goali at age 13. With 3 years of 5 days a week training and dedication, he made it to the Seattle Sounders Academy and then moved on to play at an Ivy League school ( Academics was his priority).

My point being is that at a younger age, it's rare to really say a certain kid will be an elite player.
 
Grace T. said:
Kids train soccer as young as 3 and 4. It is possible that by 8/9 you have some kids that are better at it than others. You might even have some unicorns that are really good at it. They don’t start to train goalkeeping until age 8, most good coaches won’t take em before 9. As one of my sons trainers once told a parent of a little one: happy to take your money if you insist but at this age it would be a waste of time....teach them to play soccer first. He wouldn’t take my kid until age 9. Unlike field work you can execute the basics of field play at age 8. You cannot do the same with goalkeeping work. Assume they start age 8...gotten really good at the basics in 1 year with classes once a week? Even if their dad is a college level or pro gk that takes them out every day it’s hard because the physical skills are just really different. And at 10 the kid who is learning to dive but is still letting goals fly past them is more advanced than the athletic kid running around playing like a defender and foot stopping everything even though the later will save more goals and be told he’s a natural in the position.

As for ayso yes I’m sure that played into it. I was involved in our regions discussions when they removed the goalkeepers. The parents complained the loudest...the scores would be too high if the team had a unicorn shooter. But the rational was why sacrifice a kid in the position since unless the ball is shot straight at them the kids can never do anything to stop the ball. The Spanish dont play with goalkeepers either until u9.
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My son started playing indoor peewee at age 4, where there wasn't really a goalkeeper, just a small goal. He insisted on getting a keeper jersey and gloves at age 6 when he was playing Div 7 Rec because he wanted to work out in the club's weekly skill clinic. He had the advantage of a retired pro keeper as coach and learning by watching and imitating the older kids. He and another kid in the league got so good at running the ball up from the keeper position that the club changed the rules the next year.
 
SoccerFan4Life said:
My neighbor's son was the worst soccer player in his AYSO team at age 7-8. They pulled him out of soccer. When he turned 12, the kid decided that he wanted to play again. He started at defense and then moved to goali at age 13. With 3 years of 5 days a week training and dedication, he made it to the Seattle Sounders Academy and then moved on to play at an Ivy League school ( Academics was his priority).

My point being is that at a younger age, it's rare to really say a certain kid will be an elite player.
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That’s really impressive particularly how late he started, even with natural skill, given the amount there is to learn.

I’m even more impressed he was able to ivy with the demanding soccer schedule of an academy
 
espola said:
My son started playing indoor peewee at age 4, where there wasn't really a goalkeeper, just a small goal. He insisted on getting a keeper jersey and gloves at age 6 when he was playing Div 7 Rec because he wanted to work out in the club's weekly skill clinic. He had the advantage of a retired pro keeper as coach and learning by watching and imitating the older kids. He and another kid in the league got so good at running the ball up from the keeper position that the club changed the rules the next year.
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So he was elite level gk by age 9?
 
Grace T. said:
Back at ya...particularly given the era you were active
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I admit that I have never been a certified referee (although I took and passed the written test once while waiting for my boys' class to finish, and I used to act as an AR when my kid's teams were practicing plays close to the offside line). I have a lot of other bases covered from ages 12 or so to 70+.
 
espola said:
Did you look up "no true Scotsman" yet?
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Don't have to. It's a basic fallacy and I answered you. By your avoidance of the question, what your son seems to be doing is in a very small goal doing some defending, "running the ball up", and doing some imitation. I don't know how you get from there to elite goalkeeping at age 9. What's the opposite of the true Scotsman fallacy (honest question....I don't know)?

"No true Scotsman drinks whiskey with soda".
"But my uncle drinks soda. True Scotsmen can drink soda."
 
Grace T. said:
Don't have to. It's a basic fallacy and I answered you. By your avoidance of the question, what your son seems to be doing is in a very small goal doing some defending, "running the ball up", and doing some imitation. I don't know how you get from there to elite goalkeeping at age 9. What's the opposite of the true Scotsman fallacy (honest question....I don't know)?

"No true Scotsman drinks whiskey with soda".
"But my uncle drinks soda. True Scotsmen can drink soda."
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In the midst of your denial you provide an example.
 
espola said:
In the midst of your denial you provide an example.
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You always lose the thread, don't you? The example is the opposite fallacy (which is what you are doing). The Scotsman Fallacy would read:

"No true Scotsman drinks whiskey with soda"
"By my uncle, a true Scotsman, drinks Whiskey with soda."
"But no true Scotsman drinks whiskey with soda"

That's not this. The Scotsman fallacy would be if I argued for a higher bar: only true goalkeepers extension dive for example. Here's it's a low bar....the basic skills involved in goalkeeping which a. are not trained at that age by most (or have been trained only for a short time so everyone is a "beginner"), b. their bodies aren't physically mature to master, and c. their minds struggle to comprehend. There's also the shoulda of it all that kids shouldn't be full time goalkeepers before U13 and should be rotating in U10.
 
Grace T. said:
You always lose the thread, don't you? The example is the opposite fallacy (which is what you are doing). The Scotsman Fallacy would read:

"No true Scotsman drinks whiskey with soda"
"By my uncle, a true Scotsman, drinks Whiskey with soda."
"But no true Scotsman drinks whiskey with soda"

That's not this. The Scotsman fallacy would be if I argued for a higher bar: only true goalkeepers extension dive for example. Here's it's a low bar....the basic skills involved in goalkeeping which a. are not trained at that age by most (or have been trained only for a short time so everyone is a "beginner"), b. their bodies aren't physically mature to master, and c. their minds struggle to comprehend. There's also the shoulda of it all that kids shouldn't be full time goalkeepers before U13 and should be rotating in U10.
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I have nothing new to offer. You're just repeating your empty positions.
 
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