CSL Strong???

[Grace T.]

I think this is turning into a discussion on semantics. Superior and far better, mean the same to me. Elite means the player is superior, far better, or distinctly stand out above those in age group they are playing. So, yes, I have seen a u6 player stand out and were clearly far better than those that they were playing against. Does that mean they will be elite at u10, not necessarily, because there are a crazy amount of factors that come into play, but at u6 they can be elite because they are better than their peers at that age.

I just don't agree that all keepers at 8 or 9 are all at the same level, I'm not sure why you think that, but maybe you haven't seen a rec keeper, or you are only exposed to keepers that go to keeper training or play club????

No I've seen keepers at all levels play at the 8 or 9 year old. I think that we just have different standards for what "elite' means (which I regard as different than either "better" or "superior" and it's relative to average, not the worst) and what goes into making that player elite (skill v. size/age). I also don't think there are 5 year old elite field players.

p.s. there has to be some line....4 year old elite field players, 3 year olds, 2, babies???

 

[dad4]

Fair as to field players. The GK doesn't have that influence because the GK can't score (and one solution in AYSO to the too good player that's scored 12 goals or so is to put them in goal). It also then beg's espola's question of whether a player can be "elite" if they aren't playing on an elite team (I think he's right, the answer is yes, but it gets difficult)

The other question is why? Is it because of developmental skill, or is it because of size and closeness to the age line. It's a mix of the 2 in most cases, but I haven't seen a lot of data over how heavily it leans towards one or the other.

Why? Occasionally, it’s just talent. I’ve watched a 7 year old girl dribble a field of 4th, 5th, and 6th grade boy defenders. That had nothing to do with age, height, weight, hard work, or training. That’s just undeveloped genetic luck.

 

[Grace T.]

Why? Occasionally, it’s just talent. I’ve watched a 7 year old girl dribble a field of 4th, 5th, and 6th grade boy defenders. That had nothing to do with age, height, weight, hard work, or training. That’s just undeveloped genetic luck.

Agree, occasionally, it's just talent. Sometimes, it's just age or height. Other than the hockey player study though that started that entire debate, is there much data on how often it's one v the other? Both BTW are genetically or circumstantially based, though you can do more with training and hard work for skill than age/height. One is finesse, the other is a blunt instrument.

 

[notintheface]

I get what you are saying, but if you don't think putting a higher level on a team brings in more players you are wrong. Advertise a F3 tryout in Irvine and post and ECRL tryout in Irvine and see how many players come to the F3 tryout. Of course that is the extreme, but there are going to be more players trying out for a higher team then a lower one. And what brings in the money, the players. The higher the team, the better chance a club has on being able to keep the team together and actually bring in more players. In my opinion, that is a big reason why those mega clubs broke off, they knew that was how to get the players, they have more control of were they place the team and that matters. It unfortunately all comes down to the money

Respectfully disagree -- your club should have a good working relationship with your local AYSO chapter to bring in those flight 3 players. If anything we see a better pipeline for youngers of AYSO select/extra players than we do of kids looking to move from one club to another.

Put it this way -- established flight 2 and flight 1 teams have about a 20% churn rate no matter what. Families move, kids decide it isn't for them, life happens. Those 2-3 kids either get replaced by lower flight kids or by external recruiting. It is rare in my experience to catch a large group of flight 1 kids all wanting to move at the same time and so your hypothetical ECRL tryout will tend to get a small amount of kids new-to-the-club regardless.

But that's all a moot point. The number one question that gets asked at large tryouts is, and will continue to be, "when and where does the team train?" because parents generally don't want to drive two hours round trip two or three times per week. It is only the most rabid parents who come up and ask "is this team prepared to be first place in flight 1 with an eye towards moving to discovery" and the moment some father (here's where I'm being a little sexist, because it's almost always fathers) asks that question it's a giant red flag as to that family's commitment and behavior.

 

[notintheface]

Why does it bother you at all that the team has to remain at the same level for another year until they improve a few more areas?

These kids have, on average, six years of playing this sport before they're done. That's 70-85 league games in total. If you spend more than one year in bronze, you will have wasted time that they simply do not have. Here's the scenario: a team plays its first year in bronze, U9, and out of a bracket of 6 teams let's say they come in 4th. Second year, U10 bronze, two top teams have moved up, brackets get shuffled a little bit, new team joins, this team comes in third because any myriad of reasons. Third year, U11 bronze, two top teams have moved up, brackets get shuffled a little bit, this team loses some kids but maintains a good core and manages to come in first. Fourth year, U12 silver, team has not been challenged and it's time to switch to 11v11, and they subsequently find themselves near the bottom of the table. Fifth year, U13 silver, you lose a few kids because the pro/rel process has failed them, team struggles again, near the bottom of the table. Sixth year, U14 you lose most of the rest of your original team, again because they're burned out and the whole process failed them top to bottom.

I have seen this happen time and time and time again in Coast. This does not happen in SCDSL. That U9 team plays flight 3 their first year and then flight 2 their second year and they have their second and third years to really develop, and by their fourth year and the switch to 11v11 they are ready to completely eat up other teams and so their fifth and sixth years you retain most of your players and you're rolling in flight 1. This is *reality*. This is why you tend to hear from coaches why they prefer the SCDSL format because they are not under pressure at that U9 U10 group.

I have no doubt that there are exceptions to this-- of course there are. Are there too many letter leagues? Of course there are and the fragmentation is absolutely a money grab. But pro/rel is 100% not the solution that parents (and Coast admins apparently!) think it is because you cannot tell me how it serves these youngers acting as some arbitrary gatekeeping.

 

[notintheface]

CSL made an exception to its pro/rel. You can see here that the team you focus on had a losing record the prior year: https://coastsoccer.us/web/coastsoccer/standings?YEAR=2019&SEX=G&AGE=10&SEASON=fall&BRACKET=SS&Send+Form=Standings!

Apparently, someone at the club thought it was good for development to move that team up.

Your link is to 2009s. Take a look again.

 

[Emma]

These kids have, on average, six years of playing this sport before they're done. That's 70-85 league games in total. If you spend more than one year in bronze, you will have wasted time that they simply do not have. Here's the scenario: a team plays its first year in bronze, U9, and out of a bracket of 6 teams let's say they come in 4th. Second year, U10 bronze, two top teams have moved up, brackets get shuffled a little bit, new team joins, this team comes in third because any myriad of reasons. Third year, U11 bronze, two top teams have moved up, brackets get shuffled a little bit, this team loses some kids but maintains a good core and manages to come in first. Fourth year, U12 silver, team has not been challenged and it's time to switch to 11v11, and they subsequently find themselves near the bottom of the table. Fifth year, U13 silver, you lose a few kids because the pro/rel process has failed them, team struggles again, near the bottom of the table. Sixth year, U14 you lose most of the rest of your original team, again because they're burned out and the whole process failed them top to bottom.

I have seen this happen time and time and time again in Coast. This does not happen in SCDSL. That U9 team plays flight 3 their first year and then flight 2 their second year and they have their second and third years to really develop, and by their fourth year and the switch to 11v11 they are ready to completely eat up other teams and so their fifth and sixth years you retain most of your players and you're rolling in flight 1. This is *reality*. This is why you tend to hear from coaches why they prefer the SCDSL format because they are not under pressure at that U9 U10 group.

I have no doubt that there are exceptions to this-- of course there are. Are there too many letter leagues? Of course there are and the fragmentation is absolutely a money grab. But pro/rel is 100% not the solution that parents (and Coast admins apparently!) think it is because you cannot tell me how it serves these youngers acting as some arbitrary gatekeeping.

Your reality isn't true bc the flight 1 you think your team is in...is actually flight 5 or 6 at SCDSL but they labeled it flight 1 for parents to think their kids are moving up. Your kids haven't moved up in that scenario, your kid is in the same flight but with a different name. CSL doesn't lie to you. If your at bronze, you're at bronze level until you improve enough to move forward. It's ok to do so.

ECNL=flight 1
ECRL=flight 2
DISCOVERY=flight 3
CHAMPIONS=flight 4
Europa = flight 5
Flight 1= Flight 6

I've seen teams break up and I've seen teams stay together that do not move up. When teams break up, it's all for the same reasons, (1) bad coach, (2)the kids aren't a good combination of skills or personality together or (3) the parents are too toxic. Teams should break up if 6 kids are very good and 6 kids are very bad. You can't keep them together at 11 v 11 because those 6 good kids can't cover for the 6 bad kids at 11 v 11. If the six good kids want to play more challenging teams, they have to change their teammates at 11 v 11.

 

[notintheface]

they labeled it flight 1 for parents to think their kids are moving up.

Come on. If you truly believe there is no difference between flight 2 and flight 1 then it's like everyone telling you the sky is blue and you refusing to take them at face value, it's just not worth the effort to get through to you. Youngers flight 2 is where teams work hard on their game. Youngers flight 1 is where the great teams play against great competition. The olders flights are probably excessive but look, olders need parity more than anything in order to keep their development and competitive edge going.

CSL doesn't lie to you.

Okay everyone, I found the Coast admin!

 

[lafalafa]

Coast soccer will likely always have a niche and good for them to provide a platform and league for teams to play in.

The #strong... this is being used in marketing a bunch nowadays and everyone wants to portray themselves as....some...strong...

Forget about the comparison saying a xyz league flight is equivalent to another league bracket called uvw. It's all alphabet soup and there is no real hierarchical system in youth soccer besides a marketing one. Flatter or holacratic in real teams where things are based on what clubs are members of what leagues.

 

[Emma]

Come on. If you truly believe there is no difference between flight 2 and flight 1 then it's like everyone telling you the sky is blue and you refusing to take them at face value, it's just not worth the effort to get through to you. Youngers flight 2 is where teams work hard on their game. Youngers flight 1 is where the great teams play against great competition. The olders flights are probably excessive but look, olders need parity more than anything in order to keep their development and competitive edge going.



Okay everyone, I found the Coast admin!

I'm not saying there's no difference between flight 1 and flight 2 by the time you get to 11v11 (but it's a lot less than you think), what I'm saying is your flight 1 is actually flight 5 or 6 relabeled to make parents think their kids have improved to a flight 1 level. If your kid's team improved to a flight 1 level, they should be playing ECNL or Discovery (based on the club access). If your kid is still at flight 1 (scdsl labeling) at 11 v 11, your kid is still at at least a flight 3 or less level.

And taking my words out of context is silly. We're discussing the merits of the CSL pro/rel system. I hope CSL does pay me for making this argument in support of them. Please DM me if you can pay me. I need the extra coffee money.

 

[futboldad1]

with presidio my DDs did never play in Coast SL but I remember the league was a real power house 10 years ago and still competitive even 5 years ago...... a lot has changed since then...................

 

[Grace T.]

Your reality isn't true bc the flight 1 you think your team is in...is actually flight 5 or 6 at SCDSL but they labeled it flight 1 for parents to think their kids are moving up. Your kids haven't moved up in that scenario, your kid is in the same flight but with a different name. CSL doesn't lie to you. If your at bronze, you're at bronze level until you improve enough to move forward. It's ok to do so.

ECNL=flight 1
ECRL=flight 2
DISCOVERY=flight 3
CHAMPIONS=flight 4
Europa = flight 5
Flight 1= Flight 6

I've seen teams break up and I've seen teams stay together that do not move up. When teams break up, it's all for the same reasons, (1) bad coach, (2)the kids aren't a good combination of skills or personality together or (3) the parents are too toxic. Teams should break up if 6 kids are very good and 6 kids are very bad. You can't keep them together at 11 v 11 because those 6 good kids can't cover for the 6 bad kids at 11 v 11. If the six good kids want to play more challenging teams, they have to change their teammates at 11 v 11.

re CSL doesn’t lie to you, yes it does. Because if most teams are average the vast majority would be silver/silver elite. Instead if you look at the pyramid the vast majority of teams for u12 boys are bronze. One of this reasons this is done isn’t for sorting but to keep competition local so parents at the lower levels don’t have to drive as much. But if it’s about making teams better, you shouldn’t have new teams playing existing bronze teams and there would be 6 or 7 levels as in Europe none labeled things like gold/silver/bronze medal colors.

 

[PracticeWYpreach]

I'm not saying there's no difference between flight 1 and flight 2 by the time you get to 11v11 (but it's a lot less than you think), what I'm saying is your flight 1 is actually flight 5 or 6 relabeled to make parents think their kids have improved to a flight 1 level. If your kid's team improved to a flight 1 level, they should be playing ECNL or Discovery (based on the club access). If your kid is still at flight 1 (scdsl labeling) at 11 v 11, your kid is still at at least a flight 3 or less level.

And taking my words out of context is silly. We're discussing the merits of the CSL pro/rel system. I hope CSL does pay me for making this argument in support of them. Please DM me if you can pay me. I need the extra coffee money.

Isn't CSL the same thing? Top clubs leaving for the other top leagues and then gold, silver elite, silver, bronze? I personally like the pro/rel system at the top level like SCDSL is implementing this year. But I agree at the younger middle levels it really isn't that important.

 

[SoccerFan4Life]

- I see the value of CSL in terms of making it fair with relegation and promotion and maybe this works with the older groups.
There is one important factor to consider and that's speed of play. Ive seen with my kids over the past 10 years that they learn to play faster and better if they get moved up and challenged against tougher competition. If we keep a young player in bronze or silver for a long period of time, this could create a false sense of ability and skill.

Recently, my dd played a scrimmage with a high level team and I recognized that she adapted and started playing faster. In a way, SCDSL does allow players to develop when they move up. My complaint with SCDSL is that they need to eliminate so many tiers at the flight 1 level. Eliminate discovery and just keep it to Flight 1 Champion and Flight 1 Europa. CSL also has too many tiers (5) and they should stick with 4 max.

 

[Woodwork]

Your link is to 2009s. Take a look again.

Oops. So the team that lost 10-0 was promoted from the top 3 of Silver. Probably lost key players but went Silver Elite anyway.

Not sure what your point is. Sometimes teams, despite their best effort, have an issue during the season. It doesn't justify a team that couldn't finish at the top of F2 deliberately choosing to lose in F1 by 10 points for "development." Even if the team thought they were getting something out of it, the opponent doesn't. I say no to this.

Also, something to appreciate about CSL: They don't even really give a top flight credential to youngers. That's right kids - don't let your heads get too big. You still have work to do.

 

[Woodwork]

re CSL doesn’t lie to you, yes it does. Because if most teams are average the vast majority would be silver/silver elite. Instead if you look at the pyramid the vast majority of teams for u12 boys are bronze. One of this reasons this is done isn’t for sorting but to keep competition local so parents at the lower levels don’t have to drive as much. But if it’s about making teams better, you shouldn’t have new teams playing existing bronze teams and there would be 6 or 7 levels as in Europe none labeled things like gold/silver/bronze medal colors.

Maybe Bronze is for average teams. Its kind of a point of pride in CSL to be in Silver or Silver Elite because it is earned. It is an SCDSL thing to think you should advance a flight just by virtue of existing long enough as a team.

CSL has, at the older ages, 5 levels. But the top three levels are not really that far apart.

 

[Emma]

[Q. UOTE="Grace T., post: 394625, member: 2423"]
re CSL doesn’t lie to you, yes it does. Because if most teams are average the vast majority would be silver/silver elite. Instead if you look at the pyramid the vast majority of teams for u12 boys are bronze. One of this reasons this is done isn’t for sorting but to keep competition local so parents at the lower levels don’t have to drive as much. But if it’s about making teams better, you shouldn’t have new teams playing existing bronze teams and there would be 6 or 7 levels as in Europe none labeled things like gold/silver/bronze medal colors.
[/QUOTE]
I'm sure CSL lies to you occasionally like any league does. I'm just referring to the level the teams are playing at. CSL requires team to earn their promotion, not just belong to large clubs or relabel levels to appease parents.

Keeping competition close by at the lower levels is a good thing. Leagues don't develop players. Individual players, teammates, friends, coaches, trainers, and parents help develop players. League just organizes appropriate level games in appropriate locations. However, bronze teams are now thinking they should drive 50 mil

If your kid is playing at bronze level, put your effort into taking your kid to the nearest park to kick around rather than drive the extra 50 miles to play a team that might be slightly better than the team 5 miles away. The time is better spent on individual or team training than driving the extra 45 miles.

If there are 6-7 flights, it's fine too. My problem with SCDSL is there's no true pro/rel and the larger clubs decide where they want to put teams rather than where they deserve to be at. I do commend them for trying to do this at the higher levels but they won't do this at the lower levels because parents need their kids to be in flight 1 by 11 v 11 to continue with soccer but flight 1 is actually flight 6 and that's the part I don't like.

CSL levels are below and then divided into locations.
1. Premier
2. Gold
3. Silver Elite
4. Silver
5. Bronze

Then Rec

Most teams play at the Silver level, not bronze. I agree that they should label it Flight 1, 2, 3 , 4, 5 but CSL's labeling system is more clear than ECNL, ECRL, Discovery, Champions, Europa, Flight 1

Disclosure - my children no longer play at CSL but I still prefer the CSL flighting system because it gives a more accurate representation of a team's improvement than the constant addition of higher flights.

 

[Emma]

Isn't CSL the same thing? Top clubs leaving for the other top leagues and then gold, silver elite, silver, bronze? I personally like the pro/rel system at the top level like SCDSL is implementing this year. But I agree at the younger middle levels it really isn't that important.

Grace, notintheface, and I are just arguing the merits of CSL rel/pro (with petitioning ability) vs. relabeling flights to give parents a false sense of vast improvement by big clubs.

 

[PracticeWYpreach]

Only counter to that is that the larger clubs move their players up and down to form their competitive teams. So the teams don't necessarily stay the same every year. So is ECNL/ECRL a part of SCDSL? I thought the top teams of any league joined ECNL/ECRL/GA, and then teams decided to either play coast or SCDSL. But then again I am new and am still learning.

 

[Emma]

Only counter to that is that the larger clubs move their players up and down to form their competitive teams. So the teams don't necessarily stay the same every year. So is ECNL/ECRL a part of SCDSL? I thought the top teams of any league joined ECNL/ECRL/GA, and then teams decided to either play coast or SCDSL. But then again I am new and am still learning.

Top teams from any league can NOT join ECNL or GA. ECNL and GAL are monopolies for the clubs that formed the league or clubs that get big and strong enough to join. You don't get into ECNL because your team is good enough, you get in because your club is big enough for ECNL to add you or you were part of the founding members of ECNL. My children are in monopolies but I wish they weren't monopolies and would allow 4 team to play in every year and relegate teams if they are performing below a certain level, not neccesarily according to wins but how close the games are. If a team loses with mostly 6-0 to 12-0 scores, relegate them unless they pick up better players/coach to win the play in games.

Big clubs as well as small clubs generally have player change, that's why CSL does allow a petition based on changes or circumstances but at it's core, it relies on team performance.