CSL Strong???

soccersc said:
I understand what you are saying.
But if your premise is a gk doesn't have the all the skills and training to be elite because they are missing the "higher level stuff" then you would have to say that same thing about field players at u10 as well, because at u10, field players are missing a lot of higher level stuff as well. Not even necessarily higher level, but simple things like checking the shoulder....how many u10 kids that play midfield constantly check their shoulder? and how many of them check their shoulder and understand why they are checking their shoulder? I haven't seen many do that, or know why they're doing that.... so does that mean there are no u10 ELITE midfielders in the world? No, that's silliness, your definition of elite is a little off

Elite isnt defined by a specific skills set, it has to be defined by their ability compared to their peers. You start by looking at the world class level, look at all the gk or midfielders that are at the top of u10, in the WORLD, then you can identify where each kid would fit on that world scale...those players that are BETTER than others at their age group are the ELITE players.
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No I'm saying that at U10 they aren't just missing the higher level stuff, they are missing the basics. You might have a natural that is better at some aspects (maybe the kid can kick real far, for example), but what they are doing isn't really goalkeeping technique. There are 4 archetypes for goalkeepers at this age (at least on the boys side):

1. The super big kid. Put in goal because may not be able to play the field as well and just blocks more of it. Unless puberty is kind, that kid won't be playing at U13, because at that age they need to start extension diving and you can't do it without being more athletic.
2. The super athletic kid. Can block shots directly shot at them and hustles for the loose ball and maybe plays out of the box. Still, what they are doing isn't "goalkeeping"....it's defending in front of the goal.
3. The wanna be goalkeeper. Is doing goalkeeper training but their trainer is teaching them to dive safely, not effectively. You may see them dive but balls are still sailing past him. May give up more goals than 2, but this kid is actually more advanced than 2.
4. The rotater. Coach doing it right...rotating a bunch of kids through goals to give them some experience, see who has talent, and who might want to continue it after U9/U10 to get them some training.
 
Grace T. said:
MLS is the pro bound system, at least on the boys end (there's no reason for a boys ECNL to exist if the tiers really are about competition). It's the MLS teams and cannon fodder so they can scrimmage without having to fly every time. The problem then becomes every one wants to join this system because they don't want to be left out of the competition/college looks/prestige. I agree there are too many teams. If you want it tiered flight 1 should mean flight 1 which is just a handful of teams that the truly superior players can go to. But then (until the MLS has pro/rel) there is no pro/rel for these teams.

There are natural GKS and early bloomers but no GK coach worth their salt is teaching a U9/U10 goalkeeper how to cut off the angles. .At that age, the GKs aren't even supposed to be playing in goal full time and aren't supposed to be doing much extra training on it and are supposed to be rotating through. There are no "elite" GKs at U9/U10....that just doesn't exist. You have some big players that can block big goals and you have some athletic players that can do a decent job but none of them know what they are doing. At that age, the GK coaches of any repute are teaching them how to dive safely (not effectively), the basics of positioning, the basics of distribution (to be used later), catching and stance. If they are teaching tactics and angle play to an 8 year old they are doing it wrong.
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Have to disagree with you on whether an 8 year old can learn tactics.

My son was probably about 8 or 9 when he started learning to cut off the angles when playing goal. 9 or 10 when he started thinking about where to be to cut off the cross as well.

Not an elite player by any means. Nor even a full time goalie. But he’d played enough forward to be aware that a goalie near you is often harder to beat than a goalie with their heels on the line. So he learned a bit about how to be that kind of goalie.
 
Grace T. said:
No I'm saying that at U10 they aren't just missing the higher level stuff, they are missing the basics. You might have a natural that is better at some aspects (maybe the kid can kick real far, for example), but what they are doing isn't really goalkeeping technique. There are 4 archetypes for goalkeepers at this age (at least on the boys side):

1. The super big kid. Put in goal because may not be able to play the field as well and just blocks more of it. Unless puberty is kind, that kid won't be playing at U13, because at that age they need to start extension diving and you can't do it without being more athletic.
2. The super athletic kid. Can block shots directly shot at them and hustles for the loose ball and maybe plays out of the box. Still, what they are doing isn't "goalkeeping"....it's defending in front of the goal.
3. The wanna be goalkeeper. Is doing goalkeeper training but their trainer is teaching them to dive safely, not effectively. You may see them dive but balls are still sailing past him. May give up more goals than 2, but this kid is actually more advanced than 2.
4. The rotater. Coach doing it right...rotating a bunch of kids through goals to give them some experience, see who has talent, and who might want to continue it after U9/U10 to get them some training.
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At U10 future goalkeeper ("future" is key word) needs to be playing on the field at least half the time and have a good goalkeeper coach who work with him/her on technical stuff - footwork, catching, stepping. Those keepers also needs to be on team where they constantly being challenged. Not on good teams, where they have 1 shot on goal if any, and not on teams which get blown out every game. If this scenario exists, your keeper will be just fine until all those skills will be needed at age 14-15.
I'm speaking from the 1st hand experience btw.
 
dad4 said:
Have to disagree with you on whether an 8 year old can learn tactics.

My son was probably about 8 or 9 when he started learning to cut off the angles when playing goal. 9 or 10 when he started thinking about where to be to cut off the cross as well.

Not an elite player by any means. Nor even a full time goalie. But he’d played enough forward to be aware that a goalie near you is often harder to beat than a goalie with their heels on the line. So he learned a bit about how to be that kind of goalie.
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"a goalie near you is often harder to beat than a goalie with their heels on the line". This is just wrong. There are more variables involved including the position of the ball relative to the goal. Sometimes the goalie absolutely is better off with their heels on the line. It's a complex trade off between cutting off the angle v. reaction speed and (which you'll appreciated) is actually pretty rooted in both mathematics and physics. You need some basic understanding of both before you can start to make the tradeoffs which starts for those trained goalkeepers somewhere between U12-U14.

I don't doubt that it's possible for a kid out there who is 8 or 9 to maybe pick up tactics and angles (despite that in school they've just been introduced to the concept). I don't doubt there's a kid out there that can be sweeper keeper and play like Neuer out of the box. I don't doubt there are some kids (despite the physical limitations of the human body at that age) that can regularly catch the ball shot at them in a proper W. The problem is that even among the basics there are so many things the goalkeeper needs to learn learn it's virtually impossible to pickup it all up at that age. Or as you statement itself demonstrate: "Not an elite player by any means. Nor even a full time goalie"....if that had been the case neither would be true.
 
Grace T. said:
"a goalie near you is often harder to beat than a goalie with their heels on the line". This is just wrong. There are more variables involved including the position of the ball relative to the goal. Sometimes the goalie absolutely is better off with their heels on the line. It's a complex trade off between cutting off the angle v. reaction speed and (which you'll appreciated) is actually pretty rooted in both mathematics and physics. You need some basic understanding of both before you can start to make the tradeoffs which starts for those trained goalkeepers somewhere between U12-U14.

I don't doubt that it's possible for a kid out there who is 8 or 9 to maybe pick up tactics and angles (despite that in school they've just been introduced to the concept). I don't doubt there's a kid out there that can be sweeper keeper and play like Neuer out of the box. I don't doubt there are some kids (despite the physical limitations of the human body at that age) that can regularly catch the ball shot at them in a proper W. The problem is that even among the basics there are so many things the goalkeeper needs to learn learn it's virtually impossible to pickup it all up at that age. Or as you statement itself demonstrate: "Not an elite player by any means. Nor even a full time goalie"....if that had been the case neither would be true.
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Who said any kid played like Neuer? Mine liked Howard and de Gea better back then anyway.

I just pointed out that 8 year olds can learn tactics. This is why we both used wiggle words (“often”, “sometimes”) to describe whether the goalie should come out of the box. It’s because there are multiple possible tactics, and the goalie needs to choose between the options. Even at 8.

Now, do I expect the 8 year old to always get it right? Heck no. He can learn.
 
Grace T. said:
No I'm saying that at U10 they aren't just missing the higher level stuff, they are missing the basics. You might have a natural that is better at some aspects (maybe the kid can kick real far, for example), but what they are doing isn't really goalkeeping technique. There are 4 archetypes for goalkeepers at this age (at least on the boys side):

1. The super big kid. Put in goal because may not be able to play the field as well and just blocks more of it. Unless puberty is kind, that kid won't be playing at U13, because at that age they need to start extension diving and you can't do it without being more athletic.
2. The super athletic kid. Can block shots directly shot at them and hustles for the loose ball and maybe plays out of the box. Still, what they are doing isn't "goalkeeping"....it's defending in front of the goal.
3. The wanna be goalkeeper. Is doing goalkeeper training but their trainer is teaching them to dive safely, not effectively. You may see them dive but balls are still sailing past him. May give up more goals than 2, but this kid is actually more advanced than 2.
4. The rotater. Coach doing it right...rotating a bunch of kids through goals to give them some experience, see who has talent, and who might want to continue it after U9/U10 to get them some training.
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Okay, we are kinda going in circles. I understand what you are saying. GKs at u10 are missing aspects of what a goalkeeper should be doing, okay, but what I am saying is that the "basics" are relative to the age. If nobody at that age is doing those basics then that is par for the coarse, if there are some that do a few of the basics, then they are above average, then you have a FEW that do more of the basics and they are the ELITE. If you are ELITE, than you are better than the above average player, that's being elite, its comparable to those that play your position at the same age.

Elite doesn't have to do with having a certain amount of skill set, at a certain age, otherwise when you say elite players you would only be classifying the best players in the world, De Bruyne, Mbappe, Salah, Messi, Ronaldo. If you are going to classify elite by age group then you need to identify the best at those positions, it is irrelevant if they are missing a certain skill set or are missing certain "basics", they are elite because they have more than the others, even if the more is not very much :)
 
dad4 said:
Who said any kid played like Neuer? Mine liked Howard and de Gea better back then anyway.

I just pointed out that 8 year olds can learn tactics. This is why we both used wiggle words (“often”, “sometimes”) to describe whether the goalie should come out of the box. It’s because there are multiple possible tactics, and the goalie needs to choose between the options. Even at 8.

Now, do I expect the 8 year old to always get it right? Heck no. He can learn.
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An 8 year old shouldn't be learning keeper tactics (difference between can and should too)....even as a keeper there are too many other things to learn first (beginning with safety) and the 8 year old shouldn't be playing in goal full time and should be learning how to be a soccer player first. He can learn yes...but let's wait 2 years at a minimum.
 
soccersc said:
Okay, we are kinda going in circles. I understand what you are saying. GKs at u10 are missing aspects of what a goalkeeper should be doing, okay, but what I am saying is that the "basics" are relative to the age. If nobody at that age is doing those basics then that is par for the coarse, if there are some that do a few of the basics, then they are above average, then you have a FEW that do more of the basics and they are the ELITE. If you are ELITE, than you are better than the above average player, that's being elite, its comparable to those that play your position at the same age.

Elite doesn't have to do with having a certain amount of skill set, at a certain age, otherwise when you say elite players you would only be classifying the best players in the world, De Bruyne, Mbappe, Salah, Messi, Ronaldo. If you are going to classify elite by age group then you need to identify the best at those positions, it is irrelevant if they are missing a certain skill set or are missing certain "basics", they are elite because they have more than the others, even if the more is not very much :)
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No, you are missing the point again. See the archetypes I laid out. The kid who is learning how to dive safely or how to catch properly or how to use the backpass is actually MORE advanced than superathletic kid who may be doing a few of these things like defending out of the box really well like Neuer. The kid who is learning how to dive safely (not effectively) you might see him dive and the balls are sailing past him into the goal because he can't do it effectively but he's learning not to land on his elbow or hand, to extend the arm properly, timing, to not roll over and to not dive backwards. The kid who is coming out like Neuer may be saving the goal by using his feet but is not learning the technique he needs in 2-4 years. At U9, because the pressure is for the team to advance, the coach would rather have the superathletic kid who isn't using goalkeeping technique because it prevents goals and gets him a win....at U12 when the coach actually needs a goalkeeper that can dive if the superathletic kid hasn't stopped those bad habits that kid will either transfer to the field or be cut if his field skills have stagnated due to being placed in goal.
 
notintheface said:
Control of what, exactly? Who plays who and when? Have you ever been a part of the SCDSL bracketing and scheduling process? It is a clusterfuck to define all clusterfucks.

"I'm going to move this team to flight 1 so I can extract another year of fees from my parents" is such a ludicrous statement when you consider that most parents care about drive time to practices more than anything else.
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It must be nice to live in your world.
 
notintheface said:

COAST SOCCER LEAGUE 2020 Standings for GIRLS UNDER 10 Silver Elite North

coastsoccer.us

Blowouts are happening in the highest tier of Coast youngers. Enjoy your drive.
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CSL made an exception to its pro/rel. You can see here that the team you focus on had a losing record the prior year: https://coastsoccer.us/web/coastsoc...0&SEASON=fall&BRACKET=SS&Send+Form=Standings!

Apparently, someone at the club thought it was good for development to move that team up.
 
Grace T. said:
No, you are missing the point again. See the archetypes I laid out. The kid who is learning how to dive safely or how to catch properly or how to use the backpass is actually MORE advanced than superathletic kid who may be doing a few of these things like defending out of the box really well like Neuer. The kid who is learning how to dive safely (not effectively) you might see him dive and the balls are sailing past him into the goal because he can't do it effectively but he's learning not to land on his elbow or hand, to extend the arm properly, timing, to not roll over and to not dive backwards. The kid who is coming out like Neuer may be saving the goal by using his feet but is not learning the technique he needs in 2-4 years. At U9, because the pressure is for the team to advance, the coach would rather have the superathletic kid who isn't using goalkeeping technique because it prevents goals and gets him a win....at U12 when the coach actually needs a goalkeeper that can dive if the superathletic kid hasn't stopped those bad habits that kid will either transfer to the field or be cut if his field skills have stagnated due to being placed in goal.
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okay, so let me ask you this...are there any field players that are Elite at u10?
 
soccersc said:
okay, so let me ask you this...are there any field players that are Elite at u10?
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Yes, though fewer than the rosters of the highest placed teams.

The issue is the goalkeeper skills require a little more maturity in the body to execute than the field skills, and a little more maturity mentally to comprehend. An 8 year old can run, pass, tackle, shoot. Most 8 year olds can't catch a ball hurled at their head, dive, perform 1 v 1 techniques without sliding feet first, or even remember to remain in the unnatural stances required of goalkeepers. It's for that reason many orgs such as AYSO don't even play with goalkeepers until U8/U9...you are asking them to do something which even at the European Academy level they aren't capable of doing.
 
Grace T. said:
Yes, though fewer than the rosters of the highest placed teams.

The issue is the goalkeeper skills require a little more maturity in the body to execute than the field skills, and a little more maturity mentally to comprehend. An 8 year old can run, pass, tackle, shoot. Most 8 year olds can't catch a ball hurled at their head, dive, perform 1 v 1 techniques without sliding feet first, or even remember to remain in the unnatural stances required of goalkeepers. It's for that reason many orgs such as AYSO don't even play with goalkeepers until U8/U9...you are asking them to do something which even at the European Academy level they aren't capable of doing.
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haha...that made me laugh a little, must be coming from a gk parent!! Have you even played in the midfield in a competitive soccer game or understand tactics from an attacking position? We can agree to disagree, but there are an incredible amount of tactics and technique that even the best u10 field players are missing. They aren't even close to having what they need to be an elite player at u18, I find it interesting that you feel a u10 field player can possess the skills to be Elite but a GK at that age can't. You kinda have to laugh at that!!!

I guess at a u10 game you can see players positioning themselves inside the pocket, or knowing when to switch channels, or checking their shoulder to know when a man is coming and then knowing which direction to take their touch to give themselves more time, or understand when to dummy a pass for their teammate, or when they need to ping a ball or how to weight a pass, how to create numerical advantages...I've got to see those u10 games, they would be fun to watch.

And the reason AYSO doesn't have goalkeepers is because they want to promote scoring, and they understand goals are what keep kids in the game. Go talk to a uLittle, first thing they tell you about is if they scored a goal and the first thing a grandpa ask a kid who plays soccer is "did you score any goals?"
 
Grace T. said:
There are certain basic skills a goalkeeper has to master at the basic levels. They include: catching, diving, distribution, playing with the feet, stance, and positional play. I'm excluding here higher level stuff like tipping over bar or extension diving. This is the basics. At age 10, their bodies simply aren't wired to do it and they don't have enough training to successfully execute it. Yes, you can have a superathletic kid that does a good job at one particular aspect of the play....that doesn't make him elite because they don't have the training. A reputable GK trainer won't even start training a GK before age 8/9...there's no point....they can't safely execute the very basics of the moves without hurting themselves. And at U10 the expectation really should just be try and block the stuff that's shot right at you.
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I am frequently amazed at how constrained your view of the soccer world has been.
 
soccersc said:
haha...that made me laugh a little, must be coming from a gk parent!! Have you even played in the midfield in a competitive soccer game or understand tactics from an attacking position? We can agree to disagree, but there are an incredible amount of tactics and technique that even the best u10 field players are missing. They aren't even close to having what they need to be an elite player at u18, I find it interesting that you feel a u10 field player can possess the skills to be Elite but a GK at that age can't. You kinda have to laugh at that!!!

I guess at a u10 game you can see players positioning themselves inside the pocket, or knowing when to switch channels, or checking their shoulder to know when a man is coming and then knowing which direction to take their touch to give themselves more time, or understand when to dummy a pass for their teammate, or when they need to ping a ball or how to weight a pass, how to create numerical advantages...I've got to see those u10 games, they would be fun to watch.

And the reason AYSO doesn't have goalkeepers is because they want to promote scoring, and they understand goals are what keep kids in the game. Go talk to a uLittle, first thing they tell you about is if they scored a goal and the first thing a grandpa ask a kid who plays soccer is "did you score any goals?"
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Kids train soccer as young as 3 and 4. It is possible that by 8/9 you have some kids that are better at it than others. You might even have some unicorns that are really good at it. They don’t start to train goalkeeping until age 8, most good coaches won’t take em before 9. As one of my sons trainers once told a parent of a little one: happy to take your money if you insist but at this age it would be a waste of time....teach them to play soccer first. He wouldn’t take my kid until age 9. Unlike field work you can execute the basics of field play at age 8. You cannot do the same with goalkeeping work. Assume they start age 8...gotten really good at the basics in 1 year with classes once a week? Even if their dad is a college level or pro gk that takes them out every day it’s hard because the physical skills are just really different. And at 10 the kid who is learning to dive but is still letting goals fly past them is more advanced than the athletic kid running around playing like a defender and foot stopping everything even though the later will save more goals and be told he’s a natural in the position.

As for ayso yes I’m sure that played into it. I was involved in our regions discussions when they removed the goalkeepers. The parents complained the loudest...the scores would be too high if the team had a unicorn shooter. But the rational was why sacrifice a kid in the position since unless the ball is shot straight at them the kids can never do anything to stop the ball. The Spanish dont play with goalkeepers either until u9.
 
Grace T. said:
No I'm saying that at U10 they aren't just missing the higher level stuff, they are missing the basics. You might have a natural that is better at some aspects (maybe the kid can kick real far, for example), but what they are doing isn't really goalkeeping technique. There are 4 archetypes for goalkeepers at this age (at least on the boys side):

1. The super big kid. Put in goal because may not be able to play the field as well and just blocks more of it. Unless puberty is kind, that kid won't be playing at U13, because at that age they need to start extension diving and you can't do it without being more athletic.
2. The super athletic kid. Can block shots directly shot at them and hustles for the loose ball and maybe plays out of the box. Still, what they are doing isn't "goalkeeping"....it's defending in front of the goal.
3. The wanna be goalkeeper. Is doing goalkeeper training but their trainer is teaching them to dive safely, not effectively. You may see them dive but balls are still sailing past him. May give up more goals than 2, but this kid is actually more advanced than 2.
4. The rotater. Coach doing it right...rotating a bunch of kids through goals to give them some experience, see who has talent, and who might want to continue it after U9/U10 to get them some training.
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But no "true" keeper is elite? Right?
 
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