Cal Berkeley Coach (women) abusive

[dk_b]

I don’t believe Macario’s statement. I think she’s politicking, making Stanford look good, and trying to get her papers so she can play on the National team. Do you really think Macario can be candid? How can you reconcile your position with the fact that Macario won the Mac Herman award her freshman year?

Girls aren’t developing much after 15. So, I respectfully submit most are getting hustled and won’t even benefit from letter leagues. Their fitness MAY be better but not much development occuring.

I hear what you are saying but she did not win in her frosh year - Andi Sullivan did. Whether they are developing, I leave that to the soccer folks. I know that there are some folks that consider that period - 18 to 22 - as a time of physical and mental maturity among athletes. Maybe they'd grow as players regardless of the situation but unless they can make a living in a pro club at that age, having all or some of college paid for (and all of their training paid for) in a critical time can't hurt (in my view anyway).

 

[MacDre]

What experience or examples do you have to support your position that girls aren’t developing much after 15?

Julie Ertz completely turned her career around after being dropped from the WNT player pool. Went out to NJ and trained with Carli Lloyd and a few others to redevelop her game. Came splashing back into the fold before the World Cup and has developed herself into a major component of the teams success.

I have failed to communicate so I’ll try again using your example of Ertz. I think it is relatively clear by time a kid is 15 if they have the ability to play at the highest levels. Maybe Ertz’ was burned out or hanging in the dorms at Stanford securing the ring on her finger and the surname Ertz. Once she whipped it on Mr. Ertz and had his nose wide opened she again focused on soccer. I don’t know that I’d call that development though.

 

[MacDre]

This, not so much. Please clarify.

Aren't developing physically?
Aren't developing technically?
Aren't developing tactically?

I would argue that after 15 is when you are really able to start understanding the nuances of the game and you see more "game development". Understanding and implementing tactics and concepts. Add in a little more technical development and the player starts to come into their own. I think that is where the US struggles, is we have very few coaches, or programs, that can develop players between the ages of 16 and 20-21.

I agree but you can’t squeeze blood from a turnip. You have to have the genetics. One of my kids besties is a great artist that would give Bob Ross a run for his money. On the other hand my kid is artistically challenged and despite all the help in the world, she will forever suck at art. Folks need to understand that everything ain’t for everybody. Get in where you fit in!

 

[Kicker4Life]

I have failed to communicate so I’ll try again using your example of Ertz. I think it is relatively clear by time a kid is 15 if they have the ability to play at the highest levels. Maybe Ertz’ was burned out or hanging in the dorms at Stanford securing the ring on her finger and the surname Ertz. Once she whipped it on Mr. Ertz and had his nose wide opened she again focused on soccer. I don’t know that I’d call that development though.

Dude...she made all the aforementioned accomplishments prior to meeting her husband.

Heck. Alex Morgan would be another example of someone who really developed later in her career since she really didn’t start playing competitively till she was 12.

You may have something with having the ability to play at a higher level, but even elite players continue to develop well into their 20’s. Harry Kane, Jamie Vardy are to names I can think of off the top of my head.

 

[EOTL]

I have failed to communicate so I’ll try again using your example of Ertz. I think it is relatively clear by time a kid is 15 if they have the ability to play at the highest levels. Maybe Ertz’ was burned out or hanging in the dorms at Stanford securing the ring on her finger and the surname Ertz. Once she whipped it on Mr. Ertz and had his nose wide opened she again focused on soccer. I don’t know that I’d call that development though.

She was a rock star on the WNT as Johnston. That said, I agree with you there isn’t a lot of development in college, and she is a good example of that. Her college “development” only caused her to initially flounder as a pro until she turned things around training with the likes of Carli Lloyd.

Macario is probably the worst possible example to use as proof that players develop significantly in college. She is perhaps the only player in college for whom a lucrative pro career is an absolute lock, and she therefore has the motivation to engage in additional training and effort that does not exist for anyone else. To the extent she has developed significantly, it is in large part due to her use of Stanford’s resources beyond the limited time NCAA rules allow for team activities.

 

[happy9]

I agree but you can’t squeeze blood from a turnip. You have to have the genetics. One of my kids besties is a great artist that would give Bob Ross a run for his money. On the other hand my kid is artistically challenged and despite all the help in the world, she will forever suck at art. Folks need to understand that everything ain’t for everybody. Get in where you fit in!

Hmm, this can be a slippery slope. We can discuss the pathways for early and late bloomers until we are blue in the face.

But yes, people certainly have ceilings. Some ceilings are tall, some not so tall. Every example of an early bloomer finding success at the U12 world championship in ____(insert sport here), you can find an example of a late bloomer going pro.

I suppose I would agree that by age 15, you could determine whether your kid can chew gum and dribble or just play the hell out of the flute.

I know that both of my kids couldn't paint a fence or beat a drum - but both can break your ankles with their cross over dribble on the bball court or break your hands with their strike from just outside the 18. Part of me wishes they would have continued with instruments when they were younger, but they sucked.

 

[crush]

I hear what you are saying but she did not win in her frosh year - Andi Sullivan did. Whether they are developing, I leave that to the soccer folks. I know that there are some folks that consider that period - 18 to 22 - as a time of physical and mental maturity among athletes. Maybe they'd grow as players regardless of the situation but unless they can make a living in a pro club at that age, having all or some of college paid for (and all of their training paid for) in a critical time can't hurt (in my view anyway).

Best take of the week bro. I hear some of the very top programs practice 3-5 hours a day. Not a lot of outside fun really for the best of the best and who wants to get in the game.

 

[MacDre]

Dude...she made all the aforementioned accomplishments prior to meeting her husband.

Heck. Alex Morgan would be another example of someone who really developed later in her career since she really didn’t start playing competitively till she was 12.

You may have something with having the ability to play at a higher level, but even elite players continue to develop well into their 20’s. Harry Kane, Jamie Vardy are to names I can think of off the top of my head.

Damn it, you got me. But, I think for the most part all of the examples you gave are outliers that had higher ceilings than most. I’d also bet that you could tell all of those athletes were special at 15. I think that guy Wando in the MLS supports your position too.

 

[GT45]

Best take of the week bro. I hear some of the very top programs practice 3-5 hours a day. Not a lot of outside fun really for the best of the best and who wants to get in the game.

Nah man don't believe that b.s. NCAA rules only allow 4 hours per day for your sport. Sure an injured player may use up all four hours when you included time in the training room before and after practice. But no one is on the pitch for 4 hours. 2 to 2.5 hours tops.

 

[crush]

Damn it, you got me.

 

[crush]

Nah man don't believe that b.s. NCAA rules only allow 4 hours per day for your sport. Sure an injured player may use up all four hours when you included time in the training room before and after practice. But no one is on the pitch for 4 hours. 2 to 2.5 hours tops.

Cool, thanks for the update.

 

[crush]

 

[outside!]

So nobody here believes that many college D1 soccer players improve (develop) their soccer IQ? I know they develop their fitness. I know my DD is a better player now than when she was in HS/club. Her first touch is better, her speed of play is better and her soccer IQ has improved. I know many of the players on her team became much better players by the time they were seniors. That is not development?

 

[crush]

So nobody here believes that many college D1 soccer players improve (develop) their soccer IQ? I know they develop their fitness. I know my DD is a better player now than when she was in HS/club. Her first touch is better, her speed of play is better and her soccer IQ has improved. I know many of the players on her team became much better players by the time they were seniors. That is not development?

I believe that my dd will develop to her full potential as a D1 player and will be even better today because of great coaches, great players, great support from Alumni and Admin that cares about their student athletes. I believe 100% Outside. Please stop ignoring me bro.

 

[Kicker4Life]

So nobody here believes that many college D1 soccer players improve (develop) their soccer IQ? I know they develop their fitness. I know my DD is a better player now than when she was in HS/club. Her first touch is better, her speed of play is better and her soccer IQ has improved. I know many of the players on her team became much better players by the time they were seniors. That is not development?

I think I am one of many who supports that position.

 

[MacDre]

That is not development?

I would say it’s wishful thinking or Ebonically speaking “you’re putting the paint where it ain’t.”

I would say soccer development is analogous to foreign language development and that occurs when young in order to have native fluency.

One can study a foreign language in high school and college but will never attain native fluency; maybe they’ll see improvement but will never develop native fluency in both foreign language and soccer at such late age.

 

[dk_b]

I think I am one of many who supports that position.

I do, too. My point upthread was not that I don't think college players develop. I think every elite athlete continues to develop and being around others on the same path is great for growth. These athletes would develop in a different environment, too, but that does not that I think college stunts their growth - I don't think that. And some coaches are going to be better at developing than others - that's always been the case in every sport, in every era. Otherwise, one would have to think that the only difference between an elite U16 squad (say an all-star squad) and a college squad is the physical growth and I don't believe that.

I was once watching a college game with someone who knows a lot more about soccer - tactics, etc. - than I do. He asked me if I thought a particular elite elite youth squad could beat a D1 college team that was particularly down. I said, "no chance". I explained that while some or even most of the girls could be on the field and do OK, that we were looking at one squad entirely made up of college players and trying to compare a squad of kids - physically, mentally, experientially, there is just no comparison. And all you need to do is take an elite youth squad that has, say, 13 or 15 D1 commits and look at how many get meaningful playing time as frosh. W/very rare exception, it will be a small number. As a group, those girls at 15 or 16 would get smashed by a college squad in every metric.

 

[suzysoccer1]

I don’t believe Macario’s statement. I think she’s politicking, making Stanford look good, and trying to get her papers so she can play on the National team. Do you really think Macario can be candid? How can you reconcile your position with the fact that Macario won the Mac Herman award her freshman year?

Girls aren’t developing much after 15. So, I respectfully submit most are getting hustled and won’t even benefit from letter leagues. Their fitness MAY be better but not much development occuring.

This is dumbest shit I’ve read on this forum all year. Including the covid talk. You have zero clue about anything related to women’s sports, women’s physiology, or soccer. I’d love to go on and provide the decades worth of actual data, studies, player profiles, statistical analysis of not only American female players but also international players that clearly shows not only physical development in ages 15-18,18-22, 22-24 and beyond but more importantly technically, tactical and mental advances. FFS what is up with this forum sometimes.

 

[Scott m Shurson]

I would say it’s wishful thinking or Ebonically speaking “you’re putting the paint where it ain’t.”

I would say soccer development is analogous to foreign language development and that occurs when young in order to have native fluency.

One can study a foreign language in high school and college but will never attain native fluency; maybe they’ll see improvement but will never develop native fluency in both foreign language and soccer at such late age.

Hope Solo respectfully disagrees with you, MD, and she's the best female in history to ever play the position.

 

[warrior49]

So nobody here believes that many college D1 soccer players improve (develop) their soccer IQ? I know they develop their fitness. I know my DD is a better player now than when she was in HS/club. Her first touch is better, her speed of play is better and her soccer IQ has improved. I know many of the players on her team became much better players by the time they were seniors. That is not development?

I agree with you. It's a fact that athletes continue to develop, regardless of the sport, as they grow and mature as players. How many 18-year-old soccer players are playing pro? Like right from high school? My DD's D1 coach once told her, "Women's soccer players, in general, haven't fully developed until 22-23 years old." Of course there are rare exceptions. But with that thinking, the NWSL should be loaded with fresh out of high school players who bypassed college.