Bad News Thread

We do not take a healthy population, quarantine them all, mask them all up so that they don't spread something that they don't have. This is insanity. Any epidemiologist or virologists will tell you this. We've never treated people like this before. And what we're doing is creating a culture where we shame each other. We look at each other as if you're selfish and you're mean if you don't wear a mask, which is not true at all. That whole conversation has to be out in the open and addressed because people have bought into that. It's become virtue signaling basically.
 
Government has a right to impose those rules. Society has a right to do that but there's a process for doing it. The process is this that the government needs to publish a notice of the rule making so they'll publish the proposed rule which says we're going to make everybody mask and that could be 24 hours a day or do you just do it when you're in public buildings or in public areas, whatever. Everybody gets to see the rule and to understand all the implications of the rule. Then they have to publish, create and publish an environmental impact statement, regulatory impact statement, an economic impact statement that says here's how many businesses are going to bankrupt, here are the businesses that will probably go bankrupt and here are the other public rights that are going to be restricted. Here are the costs we believe are going to be imposed by the counter measures and compare those to the costs that are being imposed by COVID and then there's a public hearing on that. They have to lay out in that environmental regulatory and economic impact statements all of the science that they relied on so the specific studies, the opinions of the specific scientists.
 
Then you have a public hearing, you have a comment time when you usually have 60 days. The public from all different parts of the public file comments on it which have to be responded to by the proponents of that law. Then you have a public hearing and in that public hearing they bring their experts who testify about the science and we're allowed to bring our experts and we can cross examine their experts, they can cross examine us and you have a debate that is aired publicly, there's a transcript that everybody can read. Then you have a finding by the judge and recommendation for edits or changes or amendments to the law based upon what we are... None of that process took place. We just have one unelected bureaucrat, Tony Fauci who says in March masks don't work, in April they do work. Therefore without citing any science and now everybody's got to wear them. Lockdowns don't work, they're ridiculous. The restrictions on travel don't work he said at one point they're ridiculous. Then he comes back without citing any science and said now everybody do it, fall in line because I said so.
 
I think it was Mark Twain who said that it's easier to fool somebody than to convince that person that they've been fooled. I think that it's not just the regulators who are acting in a self interest way to increase their power. Medical regulators have a long history of aligning themselves with tyranny. In Hitler's Germany there were more doctors who joined the Nazi party than any other profession and the medical experiments that were a key feature of the Third Reich, they were all endorsed by the leading medial associations, many of the leading doctors in Nazi Germany took part in those experiments, endorsed them, endorsed the elimination of people who were they called free eaters or worthless eaters. People who had intellectual disabilities, people who had physical disabilities who virtually all of the doctors in Nazi Germany were writing evaluations that said this person should not be allowed to live. Were participating in that before they started killing gypsies and Jews, they were killing people who had intellectual disabilities and people who had physical disabilities and the doctors were participating in that.
 
There wasn't a single medical voice in Germany during that part, that point in history that was complaining about this. None of the prominent doctors, none of the university medical schools et cetera and so the idea and this whole idea that we should trust the experts. You hear Joe Biden who I've known for many years and I like Joe Biden but this idea that democrats have adopted and liberals have adopted that we should trust the experts is absolutely antithetical to democracy. We don't trust experts. You listen to the experts, you weigh their opinions. You weigh their assessments. You don't turn democracy over to them. I've brought hundreds and hundreds of cases and I've been involved with many, many, many trials during my lifetime almost all of them involve some kind of scientific controversy.
 
On both sides of a trial you have experts and leading experts. We tried the Monsanto cases the last couple of years, my wife came to sit in on the trial a couple days. The first day that she came Monsanto had its experts on the stand and these were people from the Harvard School of Public Heath. They were people of the most highly credentialed people in the country and they were very, very convincing and at the end of the day she turned to me and she said, "Why are you guys even in here? Clearly Round Up is not dangerous to people. It doesn't cause cancer." I said to her, "Wait," and then we got to cross examine those experts and they fell apart and then we got to bring in our own experts and she heard them. There were experts on both sides. Both of them could be very convincing in a vacuum. You cannot simply say I'm going to rely on this expert because and turn democracy over to them.
 
That's why we elect politicians, that's why we pay them to be able to run these agencies, to listen to the agency heads not simply to turn to abdicate their political and democratic power to non-elected apparatchiks who are going to profit. The more catastrophic this disease is the more it amplifies their personal power and their influence and their ability to get on TV every day and have people worshiping them and to have people revering them and listening to them and have everybody paying attention and that is power. Tony Fauci has been in power for... He's the J. Edgar Hoover of public health. He's lasted there for 50 years because he has good political skills, not because he's a great scientist. The great scientists at that agency were Bernice Eddie who got run out, Julie Mikovits who got run out. Sean Anthony Morris who got run out because they were coming up with science that challenged the profit taking agendas of the industry that that agency's supposed to regulate.
 
The people who have staying power at that agency are people who figure out ways to get in the tank with the pharmaceutical companies and do their bidding. Tony Fauci's been doing that for 50 years in every instance. If you go through his career, that's what he had been doing. The idea that we should now turn all the power of the federal government over not just public health but over our economy, over our constitutional or our political movements, he's never made an assessment about what quarantines do to an economy and what unemployment does to human life. There are a lot of people who have made those studies. There was a whole industry in those studies back in the 1980's when all of these big industries, these big corporations like General Electric and General Motors were downsizing and there was a cottage industry at that time where you had a whole school of economists who were looking at the impacts of unemployment and what they found was that there's a very kind of predictable formula that at every one point unemployment at that time was killing 37,000 people. Our population was half of what it is today so that's like 60,000 people who we can expect to die from every point of unemployment.
 
Grace T. said:
Well, the teachers aren't doing a very credible version of their jobs via remote learning (and there are many many sources, but since I know you love them, here's 3). The gym employees would actually have them beat.

www.cbsnews.com

All-remote learning is failing many students all across the country: "These children are struggling"

New studies suggest the disruption to in-person education is taking a heavy toll, from higher rates of failing grades to increased mental health incidents
www.cbsnews.com www.cbsnews.com

www.chalkbeat.org

The empty gradebook: As students struggle with remote learning, teachers grapple with Fs

More students are failing classes. But teachers say they’ve tried to keep an even larger number from falling off track.
www.chalkbeat.org www.chalkbeat.org

www.washingtonexaminer.com

The remote learning failure continues

Remote education has been a failure. Children are failing, cutting class, and never getting to see their friends.
www.washingtonexaminer.com www.washingtonexaminer.com
.
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Our schools have been failing us for years and years. How else would you explain Q and t?
 
Lasting immunity found after recovery from COVID-19

After people recover from infection with a virus, the immune system retains a memory of it. Immune cells and proteins that circulate in the body can recognize and kill the pathogen if it’s encountered again, protecting against disease and reducing illness severity.

This long-term immune protection involves several components. Antibodies—proteins that circulate in the blood—recognize foreign substances like viruses and neutralize them. Different types of T cells help recognize and kill pathogens. B cells make new antibodies when the body needs them.
All of these immune-system components have been found in people who recover from SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID-19. But the details of this immune response and how long it lasts after infection have been unclear. Scattered reports of reinfection with SARS-CoV-2 have raised concerns that the immune response to the virus might not be durable.

To better understand immune memory of SARS-CoV-2, researchers led by Drs. Daniela Weiskopf, Alessandro Sette, and Shane Crotty from the La Jolla Institute for Immunology analyzed immune cells and antibodies from almost 200 people who had been exposed to SARS-CoV-2 and recovered.
Time since infection ranged from six days after symptom onset to eight months later. More than 40 participants had been recovered for more than six months before the study began. About 50 people provided blood samples at more than one time after infection.
The research was funded in part by NIH’s National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases (NIAID) and National Cancer Institute (NCI). Results were published on January 6, 2021, in Science.

The researchers found durable immune responses in the majority of people studied. Antibodies against the spike protein of SARS-CoV-2, which the virus uses to get inside cells, were found in 98% of participants one month after symptom onset. As seen in previous studies, the number of antibodies ranged widely between individuals. But, promisingly, their levels remained fairly stable over time, declining only modestly at 6 to 8 months after infection.

Virus-specific B cells increased over time. People had more memory B cells six months after symptom onset than at one month afterwards. Although the number of these cells appeared to reach a plateau after a few months, levels didn’t decline over the period studied.
Levels of T cells for the virus also remained high after infection. Six months after symptom onset, 92% of participants had CD4+ T cells that recognized the virus. These cells help coordinate the immune response. About half the participants had CD8+ T cells, which kill cells that are infected by the virus.

As with antibodies, the numbers of different immune cell types varied substantially between individuals. Neither gender nor differences in disease severity could account for this variability. However, 95% of the people had at least 3 out of 5 immune-system components that could recognize SARS-CoV-2 up to 8 months after infection.

“Several months ago, our studies showed that natural infection induced a strong response, and this study now shows that the responses last,” Weiskopf says. “We are hopeful that a similar pattern of responses lasting over time will also emerge for the vaccine-induced responses.”
—by Sharon Reynolds
 
Hüsker Dü said:
Our schools have been failing us for years and years.
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Yes they have. And now many millions more are waking up to the fact that many public school unions have zero interest in teaching.

Any other profession that basically has refused to go back to work that leaves millions of their customers (students in this case) s out of luck?
 
Desert Hound said:
To be fair as I discuss the schools, the numbers coming back show there have not been issues with the teachers as well.

So it is not a situation where the kids are OK, but the teachers are getting hammered. If there was an issue relating to the adults in the schools, the data and reports would show that.

The at risk population for covid are old individuals with health issues which is not the profile of teachers or admins at schools.

Look around other states and countries who have been had people in class now since summer/late aug. If there were an issue with teachers we would hear about it. The unions would be publishing the data on it.

Frankly we have LOTS of professions that are in constant contact with people ALL day long who go to work and do their job and are not dropping like flies are anywhere close to it. Actually let me rephrase that. Almost ALL professions are back at work and dealing with people on a daily basis.

So yes I sound off on schools and the teachers/unions that pretend they cannot safely go to work. Look at the data. Look at the various medical associations who recommend kids should be in school. They are not making those recommendations if they think teachers/admins are at risk.

So no I do not pick only one set of facts. Go look at the data of who is at risk of covid. It is the elderly and/or people with health issues.

The fact is in many large cities, the unions have screwed kids over by not having their members teach in person.
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If you go back and look at all your school posts, of which there have been quite a few, you are consistent in hammering on about the risks, or lack therein to kids, and that's pretty much it. I agree on that, and am happy my kids are in school and am in favor of safely opening schools.

I'm also aware of the risks to the adults that are required to make that happen, the teachers, custodians, maintenance people, cleaners, admins, cooks etc. You ignore them more or less all the time. That's my point.

I'm not in a union, nor have I ever been. I obviously enjoy employment benefits I would not otherwise have due to unions over many decades, won by them, for me and everyone else, through a lot of hardships. I'm not going down that rabbit hole, mind. I do expect that the unions position is a little more nuanced than just not teaching kids in person, maybe around conditions, AC replacements, class sizes, etc. I know my sister is delighted to be in school, as are her colleagues, even knowing that they are now at a heightened risk.

Grace T. said:
Yet, we are forcing grocery store workers, restaurant workers, health care workers, meat packing plant employees, factor workers, television/news employees, Costco workers, bicycle store workers, Best Buy workers, gym employees, hairdressers, dental hygenists, liquor and marijuana store workers, and ice cream store workers to work. Teachers, who they say have the important job of teaching kids, somehow take a pass.
Click to expand...

I would have thought that your libertarian beliefs would have you advocating most vociferously against the fact that "we are forcing" various people to go to work (which "we" are not). Maybe if they all had unions, they wouldn't be. I'm pretty sure that in many or even most of those cases masks are mandatory, social distancing is mandated, capacity is reduced, temperatures are taken of each customer (my dentist certainly does) etc and so on to mitigate risk. Many or most of these are not possible with schools, but you know that.
 
At a Glance
  • The immune systems of more than 95% of people who recovered from COVID-19 had durable memories of the virus up to eight months after infection.
  • The results provide hope that people receiving SARS-CoV-2 vaccines will develop similar lasting immune memories after vaccination.
Lasting immunity found after recovery from COVID-19

Hope??? Is that a form of Science?? "similar" lasting immune memories after vaccination? Hmmm....The experiment continues. Good grief people. YOUR immune systems are much stronger than any vaccine.
 
Underdog and Dora can go on forever about how awful it is that schools are closed. And they'll be mostly right.

But, for the last year, underdog has consistently opposed to any policies that might reduce the spread of covid.

The only exceptions are things, like border restrictions, that do not inconvenience him.

He simply refuses to accept the idea that he should have to make any sacrifices to help deal with the problem, and then mocks those who do.

As long as he is out there, bravely fighting to keep Arizona safe for the virus, underdog doesn't have much right to ask other people to accept the risk which he helped create.

We can take it as a given that underdog will make some emphatic, but non factual, reply about something being "zero".

-Usagi
 
whatithink said:
If you go back and look at all your school posts, of which there have been quite a few, you are consistent in hammering on about the risks, or lack therein to kids, and that's pretty much it. I agree on that, and am happy my kids are in school and am in favor of safely opening schools.

I'm also aware of the risks to the adults that are required to make that happen, the teachers, custodians, maintenance people, cleaners, admins, cooks etc. You ignore them more or less all the time. That's my point.

I'm not in a union, nor have I ever been. I obviously enjoy employment benefits I would not otherwise have due to unions over many decades, won by them, for me and everyone else, through a lot of hardships. I'm not going down that rabbit hole, mind. I do expect that the unions position is a little more nuanced than just not teaching kids in person, maybe around conditions, AC replacements, class sizes, etc. I know my sister is delighted to be in school, as are her colleagues, even knowing that they are now at a heightened risk.



I would have thought that your libertarian beliefs would have you advocating most vociferously against the fact that "we are forcing" various people to go to work (which "we" are not). Maybe if they all had unions, they wouldn't be. I'm pretty sure that in many or even most of those cases masks are mandatory, social distancing is mandated, capacity is reduced, temperatures are taken of each customer (my dentist certainly does) etc and so on to mitigate risk. Many or most of these are not possible with schools, but you know that.
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Aren't teachers at "heightened risk" every flu season?
 
dad4 said:
He simply refuses to accept the idea that he should have to make any sacrifices to help deal with the problem
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Sacrifices?

COVID killed my biz big guy. Totally killed my biz. So don't talk to me about sacrifices when I go from making money one day to having zero customers the next.

You sit there and tell people like me that we shouldn't be able to make a living while you sit at home and make your salary.

You have no idea about sacrifices. Try losing your income and still making payments for schooling, housing, cars, etc.

And that is your problem.

You can do a math problem, but you cannot interpret data when looking at the real world. You have no concept of cost/benefit. It is likely why you are not working in the private sector...you cannot apply what you know and adjust based on the actual data. You keep running around WISHING the world would confirm to want it to do.

So when you lose your biz and go from making good money to none, then you can talk about sacrifice. You advocate the closure of biz like mine and others while comfortably having a paycheck week to week. You have no concept of the fact that people need to work, to go out and do things to survive. We cannot just arbitrarily close this or that because some idiot like you deem that certain business and/or that families needs are NON ESSENTIAL.

We cannot sit here will idiots like you say kids shouldn't be in school. That somehow teachers can't go to work despite the data showing otherwise. Every other profession is putting on the shoes and going to work.

Sacrifice. You have no idea.
 
whatithink said:
If you go back and look at all your school posts, of which there have been quite a few, you are consistent in hammering on about the risks, or lack therein to kids, and that's pretty much it. I agree on that, and am happy my kids are in school and am in favor of safely opening schools.

I'm also aware of the risks to the adults that are required to make that happen, the teachers, custodians, maintenance people, cleaners, admins, cooks etc. You ignore them more or less all the time. That's my point.
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There are little to any risks to adults teaching kids.

Go look at the data.

The overwhelming number of deaths occur to people OVER retirement age.

Those that are under retirement age that have died due to covid are overwhelmingly people with serious health issues.

So if you have serious health issues, you shouldn't be going out too much etc and that is true for any profession.

Outside of that, the math/data clearly shows there is really no risks.

About 10-11% off all deaths are from those 54 and younger. So that basically is the majority of our workforce/population. Of those deaths under 54, these are not healthy people dying. In almost all cases these are people with serious health issues. Can you tell me a story about a healthy person dying? Yep. But that is the EXCEPTION.

What does that mean? That means you and I and pretty much everyone can go to work and not WORRY about dying.

That is what the data shows.

You can pretend otherwise and be scared, but that means you have not paid attention to the data.

So no, I am not ignoring the adults as you say. I am paying attention to the data and realize these people are not at risk.
 
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