Good points. But I didn’t say participation was the only consideration. Just that it is and we have to give consideration for both the t and the cis f. Another consideration is efficiency which is why we don’t test peds in youth sports and group by year instead of month. Another consideration is the level playing field but that means caring both about a level playing for the ts (sticking them with the men ain’t it once they are on the meds) and the fs. I agree we should be more restrictive the higher up we go on the pyramid.
5 biological men roster wins Australian women's soccer league title & also undefeated this season
- Thread starter Veritas
- Start date
Reduced to personal insults already? That was quick. I'll take the win.
Participation is important. But there is no level playing field for trans athletes on the women's side. You can't build a body for 20 years with high testosterone, pull a switch, and think you've undone 20 years of hormone directed growth. Nor can you give a bunch of testosterone to an XX athlete and pretend it's still an equal competition.
There isn't even a level playing field within the trans community. Some people choose a purely social transition, while others go all in for surgery and full testosterone suppression. They're both trans, but it's not at all similar athletically. You could try to devise some kind of multiple levels thing, but you'd run out of participants before you filled the rosters.
If you want a level playing field, the only place you'll find enough people of similar speed and strength is within the men's leagues. Or, decide that social aspects are more important, and create a trans league despite the performance mismatches. Either one is a good way to encourage sports participation among the trans community.
It’s not a personal insult. I specifically said you weren’t the fool or the bigot. It’s that you boxed yourself into a corner so now you just lash out. All you needed to do to get yourself out of that corner was say “yes trans people are entitled to participation and a level playing field, to the extent we can”. But instead you went with the dumb argument… one of the dumber arguments you’ve ever made on this site.
This latest argument, by contrast is very thoughtful. I think it’s great point that you can’t give an xx athlete a bunch of testosterone after puberty and expect them to compete with men. One of my points is we’ve been unfair to ftm athletes. But there are a few flaws. The first is sticking the mtf with men provides an equal playing field. That’s intellectually dishonest of you. We know it doesn’t because the moment you suppress t or introduce estrogen they won’t be able to compete. The second error is the playing field needs to be perfectly level. Social transitions would at the higher levels where we test not be allowed to compete in the open level if their t is high. They have testosterone to compete with the men. There isn’t a level playing field concern there…only a participation one (again the hammer beckons to you) that you’d need to figure out to make it work. As to post transition it’s not even clear the ftm mtf will be equivalent but again one concern we have in sports is efficiency. Because there is nothing “fair” (and you know this is a very sore subject with me) of having a December birthday compete with a January birthday in youth soccer. In some sports post transition protocols (eg a certain number of years post surgery) may be enough. In some sports we may have to measure it by t values (including bumping up high t women who refuse to suppress or who are found to have gone through the equivalence of male puberty, or low t men). Again it won’t be perfect but then the age line divisions aren’t perfect either.
I like your latest post. Other than the obvious errors (still not sure what to do about the hammer are you? Come on. Australia deux. It will be fun!), it’s very well reasoned and thoughtful.
Ps if you take out the part about trans on t blockers, post surgery or estrogen being able to compete (which you know they can’t since being on t is a performance enhancing drug) with men this argument would be really solid. I know why you don’t: because it would force you to acknowledge a problem you can’t resolve very easily and you want this to be simple, but it isn’t, and you are struggling with it. The other portion you are struggling with is the hammer (which surprises me but ok…we all grow as people). But otherwise this is getting to be a pretty solid piece.
Resorting to personal attacks a.k.a "The Cornered Rat Syndrome". They taught you that in law school didn't they? Ask me how I know.
If they didn't they should've.
I think we could end the thread right here.
Or here.Here is a fine example of the concern you show for the needs of female athletes:
In other words, "If you don't let XY people play as girls, then we might as well eliminate women's sports entirely."
Got it. In order to demonstrate your deep empathy for female athletes, you proposed getting rid of all women's sports.
( It couldn't possibly have been a lame attempt to create a truly awful proposal, in order to make your position look better by comparison. That would be dishonest. )
And if those two weren't enough..we could end it here.
But @Grace T. won't be having that...will you Grace?
Are you the pot or the kettle with this reply?
Nice back-handed compliments too. Bravo counselor!! (Slow sarcastic clap ensues.)
Again that’s not a person attack. It’s calling the argument dumb, which is what it is….what he said is incredibly stupid. It’s a boneheaded stupid argument that only a stupid person could actually believe. And he’s not stupid (I specifically said so) so
where does that leave him???? Is he acting in bad faith??? Because it’s one or the other. By contrast his last argument is a good one that makes some good points but he still has the level playing field problem and he still has the hammer problem. Until he can address those it doesn’t work but that one is better…it’s intelligent and actually makes sense.
Further I guess you are joining the hypocrisy train because I have yet to hear you can out a single personal attack by slobi. Care to explain yourself on that one? Or are you going to duck that question too like the one I asked you previously and ask you again: would you tell my cousin 20 years post transition to get out of the rest room? Of course you’ll duck it again.
With a lie. I already refuted that. I told you of course I care. I care about all of them. What I’m doing is balancing the conflicting rughts and sometimes the cis f prevails and sometimes the t prevails. What I object to is “f the t person, they deserve it and always lose”
Again that’s another lie. You are either acting stupidly and don’t understand that’s a hypothetical counter factual or are acting in bad faith and know that but are trying to use it anyway. So insults are bad, unless they come from slobi against posters or trans people, but that garbage is ok? Nice.
Of course not. I’ll keep replying to you guys as long as dom keeps the thread open or you keep posting to me. Want it to stop? Put me on ignore. I did it with covid so you don’t think I’ll do it here????
Btw your true colors are beginning to show. Careful. The hypocrisy on the slobi stuff including the slurs (you don’t get to cry personal insult and then applaud the slurs), the ducking the cousin question, mischaracterizing positions in bad faith after they’ve already been clarified (unless you care to admit you just don’t understand and can’t follow it). So which is it???? You’ve been coy about it. So let’s have it out once and for all. Say what you mean with clarity and conviction:
1. What about slobi and his slurs…approve or disapprove?
2. Would you tell my cousin to get out of the bathroom and threaten her with violence if she didn’t leave the ladies room?
3. How do you really feel about trans peopld
Put up or shut up time.
It's a stupid argument because YOU said so right? Notice you're the only person beating the drum on this? How noble of you.
I think I did earlier when you talked about the whole "granny" thing. But again, you are too blinded by your BS to even pay attention to what others are posting, especially if it's counter to what you believe. You're like the cat chasing the laser pointer around the room.
You obviously don't. Again you've been called out on this. By multiple members. But of course you argue that point (shocking..said nobody) because well..that's what you do. Deserve? I'll tell you what trans MTF don't deserve..that's a spot on the field where everyone else is a biological female.
And to echo a similar sentiment that @Slobodan said..if my kid was to play in a game where a trans player was already known to have sent players off the pitch, court, field, etc, then my kid isn't going to play. I'll double down and say if I was the coach, the game isn't happening. Now if that player is taking the field...if..and that's a big IF..I was unaware of the MTF until my first player gets injured, game is ending there. Want to call me transphobic? Go right ahead. I don't give a rat's ass what you think. I'll still sleep just fine at night. My job is to protect these biological females from the biological male who couldn't cut it playing with the other boys so he decides to call himself female and proceeds to smash records AND faces. Not this time.
[This is your quote that I botched while trying to separate your Gestapo interrogation.]
Again that’s another lie. You are either acting stupidly and don’t understand that’s a hypothetical counter factual or are acting in bad faith and know that but are trying to use it anyway. So insults are bad, unless they come from slobi against posters or trans people, but that garbage is ok? Nice.
[My reply]
How funny that you can hurl insults when people don't agree with you and it's cool. But @Slobodan used the word "tranny" and the world is suddenly coming to a halt.
Why would I put you on ignore? I've got nothing better to do than come in here and watch you chase your tail.
1) I think I already covered that above. I think he used "tranny" once at the beginning of the thread. Is that all you got? That word gets thrown around pretty losely these days. But gay people say all kinds of stuff to other gay people and it's cool. And Black people use the N-word with an "a" on the end and it's cool, but nobody else better. But White people are B-A-D people. People can talk all kinds of crap these days about White people and nobody says a thing. My wife is White. So I'm pretty much over the whole trash-talk from Liberals regarding "White Privilege" etc.
And I'm going to go out on a limb here and say you NEVER use any kind of slur do you? Unless you're in the car alone where nobody else can hear you right? I'm Hispanic btw. So can I go around using the WB term for all the illegal border-crossers flooding this country? Seeking your guidance and approval on this one before I continue.
2) I don't quite remember if your cousin is MTF or FTM. Not that it matters. And not that I care. But for arguments sake we'll start with FTM. If your biological female cousin has been wishing/pretending SHE was a HE all these years and looks like it and proceeds to walk into the Men's Restroom to take a squat, (which is what SHE will have to do since SHE really isn't a HE) if your cousin looks like a man, I'm most likely not going to notice.
Now if your cousin is MTF and looks very much like a biological male despite whatever HE has done to make his appearance look female but still
looks like an obvious man walking into the Female Restroom, there's going to be some questions/concerns before HE goes in there.
3) I already gave you my take on trans people in my first post in this thread. You can do your own homework and go find it. I'm not doing the work for you if you can't keep up with the conversation because you are so blind with vitriol against those who don't agree with you. That's a you problem.
Dumb post of the day. Every player gets their rating by Coach Grace. Sounds like @Slobodan and I aren't classy though.
We are the Minions and you are Gru.
What normal biological male doesn't like to be touched by other men beyond a handshake or a bro-hug?
(@crush is the rare exception when it comes to his masseuse.)
I said, "the best massage I ever had was from a male masseuse, who happen to be gay in his private life." I never said "I like" being touched by mens. Troy got out my knots. I didn't "like" it bruh, I needed it. And for the record, I have not had another man masseuse my back.
It was not a dig at you Your Grace. Just saying that you were cool with another man touching you beyond a handshake or hug.
I see your point. Veritas feels the same way as you. I was not cool with it, as the word "cool" might mean different type of cools. I was desperate and this guy Troy came highly recommended, so I put my fears aside and let Troy do his thing. Back to the whole MTF thing. If you, me and Veritas went to a massage place and a MTF came out to do the "walk on the back" deep Thai massage, we would be pissed off because of the deceit aspect. I am not cool with a MTF and probably will never have another man give me a massage.
1. You didn’t answer the question whether you approve of his use of the slur and he used it more than once. All you’ve done now is complain why can’t white people use slurs even though you yourself are Latino. And yes everyone uses a slur at some point in there lives but few people decide to go around on a public forum and use it repeatedly and proudly…most tend to say “yeah I messed up and it wasn’t good”. So do you think use of that slur is acceptable or not?
2. You danced around that one too. I already told you my cousin is MTF and post op 20 years. SHE is very much like the Thai masseuse where it’s hard to tell unless you are looking for it but if you do yes you can. So is the test whether YOU notice that she’s trans and if YOU do you’ll threaten violence if she doesn’t leave the women’s restroom? Yalls so sensitive about words in the mouth so I want to be very precise with this question…yay or nay?
3. I remember. It was filled with a bunch of falsehoods and assumptions which I pointed out to you were incorrect and ignorant. No revision of your priors despite the information having been supplied? No “I didn’t know that maybe I was wrong…let me go check other sources”? Not even a “well maybe I shot my mouth off before checking”?
We’re really really close to the answer here but you don’t want to say it do you? I’m very close to the answer too but have wanted to give you every benefit of the doubt before accusing you of something. The only thing worse than being a bigot is one who is secretly ashamed of his positions and unwilling to embrace them…I think a word for that was used when it came to the uswnt…that actually would make you worse than slobi. So thoughts? Going to quit dancing?
Grace, let's say your cousin is part-time Thai masseuse. Veritas walks in looking for "walking on the back" Thai Special and specially requests a female. Out comes your cousin and Veritas seems happy and lays on his tummy for "walking on the back" Thai Special. Is this ok with you on a ethical point of view?
Btw the entire forfeit thing is a better answer than the “target” thing slobi said. Forfeit and take your punishment (which when some teams have done it has been substantial) but at least you’ve had the courage of your convictions. You are making an assumption that it will be unsafe: as dad4 pointed out not all trans people are created equally. Though somehow would you have the same reaction and you coached a bunch of f3 boys u12 boys (who being f 3 tend to be on the mean in height or slightly less) and a 6 ft 160 pound mammoth of a player steps on the field opposite side (I’ve seen that happen twice). Still forfeit? Or is just the trans person the safety concern?
I don’t know the answer to this. I’d have to think about it and know more about massages (I’ve only had a few in my life time, almost all pt related). For example, I think a trans person definitely has an obligation to be honest about their status while dating.
That said, jeez you guys are all really sensitive about the whole gay thing in being touched by a man. Again in Northern Europe men massage men because (outside of a Thai walking massage) they tend to give better massages. Your male egos really that fragile? No reason to be embarrassed or to defend yourself about Troy.
If I was lied to I would feel ripped off, like a used car salesman selling me a lemon.
