5 biological men roster wins Australian women's soccer league title & also undefeated this season

kickingandscreaming said:
I have little doubt there are relatively rare cases such as this. Unfortunately, with programs that are "limited" and "targeted" such as The Homeland Security Act, overreach (for lack of a better word) occurs when power meets a lack of transparency. It's the closest thing to a law of physics that there is in psychology. It's worth noting that the recent surge in transitioning corresponds to increase in mental health problems - both children and adults. Mix in early childhood education's new and disturbing fixation on gender and sexuality along with re-enforcing approaches to problems that do not build resiliency, and here we are.

I Thought I was Saving Trans Kids. Now I'm Blowing the Whistle
www.thefp.com

I Thought I Was Saving Trans Kids. Now I’m Blowing the Whistle.

There are more than 100 pediatric gender clinics across the U.S. I worked at one. What’s happening to children is morally and medically appalling.
www.thefp.com www.thefp.com

Chloe Cole's Testimony
nypost.com

Detransitioner Chloe Cole’s full testimony to Congress is a ‘final warning’ to stop gender surgery

On Thursday, her 19th birthday, Chloe Cole testified to Congress with a “final warning” that medical treatments to change the gender of confused children is horrific.
nypost.com nypost.com

Large study of detransitioners (I assume "large" means something >= 3)
segm.org

Detransition: a Real and Growing Phenomenon

Over the last few years, a growing community of detransitioners has formed online. Despite the visibility recently given to the topic in mainstream media, including a recent 60 Minutes episode featuring detransitioners and their stories, detransition is still a poorly understood phenomenon. A...
segm.org segm.org

Why The Media Attacks Detransitioners
www.public.news

Why The Media Attacks Detransitioners

Regret among survivors of gender ideology is rising not declining
www.public.news www.public.news

I Was Fired After Blowing the Whistle
www.thefp.com

‘I Was Fired After Blowing the Whistle’

Tamara Pietzke exposed the dangers of ‘gender-affirming care’ for minors. Then, she lost her job. She reveals the cost of speaking out—and why she has no regrets.
www.thefp.com www.thefp.com
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Your concerns are warranted, no doubt.
 
watfly said:
So until we walk in someone else's shoes, we probably shouldn't tell others how to raise their kids.
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Really? Should we be able to prostitute our children, or keep them out of school and send them to work at 8 years old? How about slapping our child, or letting our 10-year-old walk to the store on his own? In the US, the government is actively involved in telling us how to (and not to) raise our kids. Guardrails is a good term I see above. Maybe there was a period of time a few years back when doctors were nearly universally driven by the Hippocratic Oath, education didn't promote and actively celebrate sexual preferences that were non-heterosexual, and scientists promoted science instead of ideology. Maybe in that time, they were better able to identify those children who would benefit long-term from transitioning. That time, if it ever existed, has passed. When considering the number of guardrails that exist in raising children, I can't imagine a more serious candidate than transitioning a child.
 
kickingandscreaming said:
Really? Should we be able to prostitute our children, or keep them out of school and send them to work at 8 years old? How about slapping our child, or letting our 10-year-old walk to the store on his own? In the US, the government is actively involved in telling us how to (and not to) raise our kids. Guardrails is a good term I see above. Maybe there was a period of time a few years back when doctors were nearly universally driven by the Hippocratic Oath, education didn't promote and actively celebrate sexual preferences that were non-heterosexual, and scientists promoted science instead of ideology. Maybe in that time, they were better able to identify those children who would benefit long-term from transitioning. That time, if it ever existed, has passed. When considering the number of guardrails that exist in raising children, I can't imagine a more serious candidate than transitioning a child.
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Strawman. If you actually believe parents making a good faith decision about their child's serious health issue is the same as parents prostituting their child, then you fundamentally don't understand the issue. I agree with guardrails, in fact, I mentioned specific protocols for transitioning. Nothing in my posts supported unrestricted transitioning.
 
If you would have ended with, “Not all transgenders are what you see on TV.” I would have agreed with your full post. But you ended with, “So until we walk in someone else's shoes, we probably shouldn't tell others how to raise their kids.” I addressed that - not to imply that you somehow didn’t think guardrails should exist (and I state that they were previously referenced) - but to make the point that the transitioning process in the current state of our country w.r.t. doctors and education (add science research and MSM narrative) is unsafe for children who will eventually not be trans. Unfortunately, the corruption of the “experts” keeps parents from being well informed. As it stands now, we need more guardrails.
 
watfly said:
Strawman. If you actually believe parents making a good faith decision about their child's serious health issue is the same as parents prostituting their child, then you fundamentally don't understand the issue. I agree with guardrails, in fact, I mentioned specific protocols for transitioning. Nothing in my posts supported unrestricted transitioning.
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Transitioning under 18? That’s a hard no in my book. After that, it’s your choice, but let’s be real... if you go down that path, there’s likely something deeper going on mentally. Why not embrace what the universe or God gave you? If you're attracted to the same sex, fine then you’re gay. Gay people don’t feel the need to change their biology because they accept who they are and stay grounded in reality. But transitioning? That’s a whole different level of trying to override the hand you were dealt with technology and science. It feels like a refusal to confront reality, wrapped in entitlement. And don’t even get me started on those who transition only to date the same sex. A man becoming a woman to date another woman? That’s next-level confusion. It screams of deeper issues that need addressing, not a quick fix through surgery and hormones... 🤦‍♂️
 
Veritas said:
Transitioning under 18? That’s a hard no in my book. After that, it’s your choice, but let’s be real... if you go down that path, there’s likely something deeper going on mentally. Why not embrace what the universe or God gave you? If you're attracted to the same sex, fine then you’re gay. Gay people don’t feel the need to change their biology because they accept who they are and stay grounded in reality. But transitioning? That’s a whole different level of trying to override the hand you were dealt with technology and science. It feels like a refusal to confront reality, wrapped in entitlement. And don’t even get me started on those who transition only to date the same sex. A man becoming a woman to date another woman? That’s next-level confusion. It screams of deeper issues that need addressing, not a quick fix through surgery and hormones... 🤦‍♂️
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I don’t like the override the hand you were dealt with/technology argument. That’s an argument for people not to get lasik, not to fix the deaf and blind if surgical options or artificial are available, to ban adhd meds, to not repair cleft palates or do plastic surgery, hgh, tattoos, liposuction of semiglutides, vasectomies and tube tying, artificial limbs and robotic replacements. The only distinction would seem to be you think all or some of these options are morally legit but transitioning is not caused by a legit medical concern so is just “a refusal to confront reality” followed up with the other moral pronouncement “wrapped in entitlement”. I note just a few years ago you could turn the gay argument on its head: God made you a man so why are you unnaturally attracted to other men. The only difference is you now accept one (gayness) as moral and natural but not the other. Again it boils down to in the end you are making a moral judgment call.

The best argument against transitioning under 18 is the consent argument. That the change is so fundamental a minor is incapable of making it and a parent should not. That assumes however there is a line of certain medical procedures over which we collectively believe the state and not the parent should make a decision (such as killing your child). But note such a policy does do active harm to people like that watfly illustrated. You are protecting some at the expense of others. It also concedes that a parent is not ultimate authority and the state can override a parent (say ca at one point considered screening kids for lgbtq and removing them from parents who might disagree).

As to men transitioning and then dating other men, the thing to understand is that not everyone thrown into the transgendered category is the same and therefore probably needs to be treated differently (progs did this to themselves). We have people who know from a very early age (like watfly’s person), people who know from a young age (most often associated with an autism link), people who transition later (tend to be males and straight and may or may not have autogynophelia link), cross dressers (both who may want to take the fantasy to an extreme and then regret it and most often associated with ocd and fetishers with no interest in transitioning), drag (gay men, usually for entertainment), and the nonbinary (overwhelmingly female).
 
Grace T. said:
I don’t like the override the hand you were dealt with/technology argument. That’s an argument for people not to get lasik, not to fix the deaf and blind if surgical options or artificial are available, to ban adhd meds, to not repair cleft palates or do plastic surgery, hgh, tattoos, liposuction of semiglutides, vasectomies and tube tying, artificial limbs and robotic replacements. The only distinction would seem to be you think all or some of these options are morally legit but transitioning is not caused by a legit medical concern so is just “a refusal to confront reality” followed up with the other moral pronouncement “wrapped in entitlement”. I note just a few years ago you could turn the gay argument on its head: God made you a man so why are you unnaturally attracted to other men. The only difference is you now accept one (gayness) as moral and natural but not the other. Again it boils down to in the end you are making a moral judgment call.

The best argument against transitioning under 18 is the consent argument. That the change is so fundamental a minor is incapable of making it and a parent should not. That assumes however there is a line of certain medical procedures over which we collectively believe the state and not the parent should make a decision (such as killing your child). But note such a policy does do active harm to people like that watfly illustrated. You are protecting some at the expense of others. It also concedes that a parent is not ultimate authority and the state can override a parent (say ca at one point considered screening kids for lgbtq and removing them from parents who might disagree).

As to men transitioning and then dating other men, the thing to understand is that not everyone thrown into the transgendered category is the same and therefore probably needs to be treated differently (progs did this to themselves). We have people who know from a very early age (like watfly’s person), people who know from a young age (most often associated with an autism link), people who transition later (tend to be males and straight and may or may not have autogynophelia link), cross dressers (both who may want to take the fantasy to an extreme and then regret it and most often associated with ocd and fetishers with no interest in transitioning), drag (gay men, usually for entertainment), and the nonbinary (overwhelmingly female).
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Grace, you raise a valid critique about drawing lines between medical interventions. Yes, technology and medicine can enhance lives such as lasik, cleft palate repairs, or prosthetics are excellent examples. But the difference lies in purpose and permanence. You see Grace, most of these interventions aim to restore or enhance function, not redefine identity. Transitioning isn’t about fixing a broken limb or improving vision...it’s a fundamental alteration of one's biological and social reality. That distinction makes it a heavier moral and medical question.

The consent argument for minors is critical. The stakes are enormous, and a child lacks the maturity to fully grasp the lifelong implications of transitioning. As you pointed out, we already place limits on parental authority in extreme cases. While those policies can protect, they also risk overreach, as seen in debates like California’s proposals on LGBTQ+ screenings. It’s a balancing act, protecting minors while preserving parental rights and avoiding harm to those who might genuinely benefit.

On men transitioning and dating other men, I agree with your point about nuance. The transgender umbrella encompasses diverse motivations and experiences, and not all align with a single narrative. However, understanding these complexities shouldn’t prevent us from discussing overarching issues like medical ethics, mental health, and societal norms. The key is balancing compassion with common sense ensuring decisions are well-informed, reversible where possible, and grounded in both personal freedom and responsibility.
 
Veritas said:
Grace, you raise a valid critique about drawing lines between medical interventions. Yes, technology and medicine can enhance lives such as lasik, cleft palate repairs, or prosthetics are excellent examples. But the difference lies in purpose and permanence. You see Grace, most of these interventions aim to restore or enhance function, not redefine identity. Transitioning isn’t about fixing a broken limb or improving vision...it’s a fundamental alteration of one's biological and social reality. That distinction makes it a heavier moral and medical question.
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Well, at least we got to the heart of it. Your objection is a moral one. You approve of some medical interventions, you don't approve of others. You also think it's a question of "identity" whereas medically, at least for some category of the individuals we outlined, it's not. It's one prescription which for a category of people...like Brianna Wu, my counsin, or Watfly's person...where the treatment has helped because there's no better treatment available (for the second category, for example, we can't cure or even treat autism). Again, there's no magic wand that makes a ftm magically male or a mtf magically female...it's a medical intervention among very limited medical interventions and a poor solution. There's not a whole lot of alternatives here besides shrugging your shoulders and saying so sad too bad.
 
Veritas said:
Transitioning under 18? That’s a hard no in my book. After that, it’s your choice, but let’s be real... if you go down that path, there’s likely something deeper going on mentally. Why not embrace what the universe or God gave you? If you're attracted to the same sex, fine then you’re gay. Gay people don’t feel the need to change their biology because they accept who they are and stay grounded in reality. But transitioning? That’s a whole different level of trying to override the hand you were dealt with technology and science. It feels like a refusal to confront reality, wrapped in entitlement. And don’t even get me started on those who transition only to date the same sex. A man becoming a woman to date another woman? That’s next-level confusion. It screams of deeper issues that need addressing, not a quick fix through surgery and hormones... 🤦‍♂️
Click to expand...
In rare cases, the hand they were dealt is their brain biology says they are the gender opposite of their physical biology. Yes, transitioning prior to 18 is super dicey and there should be multiple safeguards before it is ever considered. But sincere and genuine transgenders are going to have better outcomes if they don't go through puberty of their birth gender. Surgical transition as a minor is far more of myth than a reality.

I agree that in many cases there may be some underlying mental issues, but my son's friend has convinced me that that's not true in all cases. So I will take a real life experience over the made for TV transgenders like Dylan Mulvaney who, in my mind, appears to be play acting. I strongly believe that if you stood in the shoes of my son's friend's parents your opinion would be different. What you describe in your post in no way applies to my son's friend, and is more about what you're seeing on TV and social media.
 
watfly said:
In rare cases, the hand they were dealt is their brain biology says they are the gender opposite of their physical biology. Yes, transitioning prior to 18 is super dicey and there should be multiple safeguards before it is ever considered. But sincere and genuine transgenders are going to have better outcomes if they don't go through puberty of their birth gender. Surgical transition as a minor is far more of myth than a reality.

I agree that in many cases there may be some underlying mental issues, but my son's friend has convinced me that that's not true in all cases. So I will take a real life experience over the made for TV transgenders like Dylan Mulvaney who, in my mind, appears to be play acting. I strongly believe that if you stood in the shoes of my son's friend's parents your opinion would be different. What you describe in your post in no way applies to my son's friend, and is more about what you're seeing on TV and social media.
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The other issue with minors is hormone blockers and hormone therapy. Reason Europe has clamped down is because both have been found to have some side effects including permanent effects on fertility. While surgical transition is rare with minors, the foregoing therapies have become more common and the guardrails that were in place since the 60s were eroded during the Obama years by activists, but I otherwise agree with your statement. The problem is your son's friend has been lopped in with all others as "transgendered" including those who "self-ID" and/or are really just exercising a fetish. The activists did that to your friend's kid, which isn't very fair.
 
Grace T. said:
The other issue with minors is hormone blockers and hormone therapy. Reason Europe has clamped down is because both have been found to have some side effects including permanent effects on fertility. While surgical transition is rare with minors, the foregoing therapies have become more common and the guardrails that were in place since the 60s were eroded during the Obama years by activists, but I otherwise agree with your statement. The problem is your son's friend has been lopped in with all others as "transgendered" including those who "self-ID" and/or are really just exercising a fetish. The activists did that to your friend's kid, which isn't very fair.
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Agree on all accounts. I take everything on a case-by-case basis. There is definitely "lumping" in the TG community, like if you're a TG supporter you have to also support FtoM's competing against women. I don't understand people that follow strict narratives where if you believe X you must believe Y.
 
Grace T. said:
I don’t like the override the hand you were dealt with/technology argument. That’s an argument for people not to get lasik, not to fix the deaf and blind if surgical options or artificial are available, to ban adhd meds, to not repair cleft palates or do plastic surgery, hgh, tattoos, liposuction of semiglutides, vasectomies and tube tying, artificial limbs and robotic replacements. The only distinction would seem to be you think all or some of these options are morally legit but transitioning is not caused by a legit medical concern so is just “a refusal to confront reality” followed up with the other moral pronouncement “wrapped in entitlement”. I note just a few years ago you could turn the gay argument on its head: God made you a man so why are you unnaturally attracted to other men. The only difference is you now accept one (gayness) as moral and natural but not the other. Again it boils down to in the end you are making a moral judgment call.

The best argument against transitioning under 18 is the consent argument. That the change is so fundamental a minor is incapable of making it and a parent should not. That assumes however there is a line of certain medical procedures over which we collectively believe the state and not the parent should make a decision (such as killing your child). But note such a policy does do active harm to people like that watfly illustrated. You are protecting some at the expense of others. It also concedes that a parent is not ultimate authority and the state can override a parent (say ca at one point considered screening kids for lgbtq and removing them from parents who might disagree).

As to men transitioning and then dating other men, the thing to understand is that not everyone thrown into the transgendered category is the same and therefore probably needs to be treated differently (progs did this to themselves). We have people who know from a very early age (like watfly’s person), people who know from a young age (most often associated with an autism link), people who transition later (tend to be males and straight and may or may not have autogynophelia link), cross dressers (both who may want to take the fantasy to an extreme and then regret it and most often associated with ocd and fetishers with no interest in transitioning), drag (gay men, usually for entertainment), and the nonbinary (overwhelmingly female).
Click to expand...
I can't imagine a scenario where I would say, "transition my child". But I am also not so arrogant to believe I have all the answers or even that it's not possible for me to feel that way. My experience is anecdotal - and may not reflect reality. But I feel like, maybe 10-15 years ago, it was a much better time for children in a position that @watfly references. Transitioning seemed like a private decision between a patient/family and doctor to help alleviate suffering that persisted despite more traditional therapy. It was not celebrated and didn't come with new privileges because that wasn't the point. In fact, I hardly ever heard about it.

Yes, the consent argument is likely to bring child transitions to a screeching halt. There's nothing like lawsuits to deter an activity.
 
kickingandscreaming said:
I can't imagine a scenario where I would say, "transition my child". But I am also not so arrogant to believe I have all the answers or even that it's not possible for me to feel that way. My experience is anecdotal - and may not reflect reality. But I feel like, maybe 10-15 years ago, it was a much better time for children in a position that @watfly references. Transitioning seemed like a private decision between a patient/family and doctor to help alleviate suffering that persisted despite more traditional therapy. It was not celebrated and didn't come with new privileges because that wasn't the point. In fact, I hardly ever heard about it.

Yes, the consent argument is likely to bring child transitions to a screeching halt. There's nothing like lawsuits to deter an activity.
Click to expand...
GraceT touched on this...there is a certain activism involved in this issue that didn't exist 10-15 years ago. This combined with the medical communities default treatment of "here take this" adds to what may be an "over-transitioning" issue. I'm no expert but it appears to me there are a huge number of variables that cause someone to think they are the opposite gender and they all should be treated differently.
 
kickingandscreaming said:
I can't imagine a scenario where I would say, "transition my child". But I am also not so arrogant to believe I have all the answers or even that it's not possible for me to feel that way. My experience is anecdotal - and may not reflect reality. But I feel like, maybe 10-15 years ago, it was a much better time for children in a position that @watfly references. Transitioning seemed like a private decision between a patient/family and doctor to help alleviate suffering that persisted despite more traditional therapy. It was not celebrated and didn't come with new privileges because that wasn't the point. In fact, I hardly ever heard about it.

Yes, the consent argument is likely to bring child transitions to a screeching halt. There's nothing like lawsuits to deter an activity.
Click to expand...

watfly said:
GraceT touched on this...there is a certain activism involved in this issue that didn't exist 10-15 years ago. This combined with the medical communities default treatment of "here take this" adds to what may be an "over-transitioning" issue. I'm no expert but it appears to me there are a huge number of variables that cause someone to think they are the opposite gender and they all should be treated differently.
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The men who want to be a gurl cannot play sports with the girls and against the girls. Let's stay on topic watty. They & Them cannot be allowed in the locker rooms or showers with our daughters, the end!
 
watfly said:
GraceT touched on this...there is a certain activism involved in this issue that didn't exist 10-15 years ago. This combined with the medical communities default treatment of "here take this" adds to what may be an "over-transitioning" issue. I'm no expert but it appears to me there are a huge number of variables that cause someone to think they are the opposite gender and they all should be treated differently.
Click to expand...
We can’t overestimate the effect of celebrating sexual preference and gender on the minds of children - and adults for that matter. The only time in life that this matters is when people are in that type of relationship. Why are schools and activists pushing this on children? Affirmation sickness? It’s so weird that we rightly pushed sexual harassment out of the ADULT workplace, yet we feel the need to expose young children to it and teach them to celebrate it.
 
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