More potential NCAA changes

[socalkdg]

Colleges are not making money from soccer. Why would they pay athletes who do not produce profit? Redistribution of wealth from profitable football to unprofitable soccer sure sounds like socialism

I've read less than 25 schools actually make money.

According to this 2019 report, most universities lose money on athletics. There are only 25 profitable Division I programs; the rest lose roughly $16 million every year. All of the schools in Division II or Division III have consistently reported financial losses from athletics over the past 16 years. Division III colleges and universities like my former employer have lost more, on average, over time despite the prevailing attitude that colleges simply can’t survive without sports. According to the NCAA, Division III schools lost $1.6 million on athletics, on average, in 2005. By 2020 that annual deficit — the true cost of Division III athletics — had grown to $3.9 million. This seems bonkers in a climate where the only thing parents seem to care about is the return on investment in their child’s degree. As my friend Bob likes to say, how many world-class researchers or writers — Nobel and Pulitzer winners — could be supported by $16 million a year at a flagship university? I know, I know, those professors wouldn’t be drawing huge television contracts to partially offset their cost. Even so, the scale of spending on athletics in a climate of faculty layoffs and hiring freezes is obscene.

Why we are even discussing this about soccer is beyond me. I care about the 95% of the schools at all division levels that barely get by with college soccer. Multiple friends daughters on her team and other college teams are happy to be getting money for college to play soccer. There isn't going to be more money for them. This is about football and basketball.

 

[dk_b]

I've read less than 25 schools actually make money.

According to this 2019 report, most universities lose money on athletics. There are only 25 profitable Division I programs; the rest lose roughly $16 million every year. All of the schools in Division II or Division III have consistently reported financial losses from athletics over the past 16 years. Division III colleges and universities like my former employer have lost more, on average, over time despite the prevailing attitude that colleges simply can’t survive without sports. According to the NCAA, Division III schools lost $1.6 million on athletics, on average, in 2005. By 2020 that annual deficit — the true cost of Division III athletics — had grown to $3.9 million. This seems bonkers in a climate where the only thing parents seem to care about is the return on investment in their child’s degree. As my friend Bob likes to say, how many world-class researchers or writers — Nobel and Pulitzer winners — could be supported by $16 million a year at a flagship university? I know, I know, those professors wouldn’t be drawing huge television contracts to partially offset their cost. Even so, the scale of spending on athletics in a climate of faculty layoffs and hiring freezes is obscene.

Why we are even discussing this about soccer is beyond me. I care about the 95% of the schools at all division levels that barely get by with college soccer. Multiple friends daughters on her team and other college teams are happy to be getting money for college to play soccer. There isn't going to be more money for them. This is about football and basketball.

Agreed. But one potentially huge change - and I think 100% necessary or fewer and fewer of the strongest youth players will go to college (right now it is a tiny # that go directly to the pros) - is the ability to sign contracts w/pro teams while still in college. Otherwise, the colleges risk losing players at any time during the year since pro teams have different seasons in different countries. More and more will be made offers they can't refuse - it may not be F-you money but it may still be significant and, given the injury risk, hard to pass up. The closer one is to earning a degree, perhaps the risk diminishes of leaving early but it's going to happen.

 

[crush]

Agreed. But one potentially huge change - and I think 100% necessary or fewer and fewer of the strongest youth players will go to college (right now it is a tiny # that go directly to the pros) - is the ability to sign contracts w/pro teams while still in college. Otherwise, the colleges risk losing players at any time during the year since pro teams have different seasons in different countries. More and more will be made offers they can't refuse - it may not be F-you money but it may still be significant and, given the injury risk, hard to pass up. The closer one is to earning a degree, perhaps the risk diminishes of leaving early but it's going to happen.

Sage from experience Papa helps us all. Always good to read your posts. We don't always agree, but you have been fair to crush, the emotional one who wanted change 6 years ago. I am not an either-or type of person or father. I like flavors and options so I'm always, "can we do both and?" Basically, a young 15-year-old girl (I don't recommend but to each his own dd) could go Pro and train with Pros, home school and play pro soccer. By the time she is 18, she can switch to college if the Pro-life is not for her. Is this how it's read? Or, go Pro out of HS and realize you made a huge mistake and see all your friends in college life and having fun and a special time, you could quit pro and play college soccer. Can you play college soccer in the fall and then Pro in the Spring? I love this new rule if it holds.

 

[Carlsbad7]

Agreed. But one potentially huge change - and I think 100% necessary or fewer and fewer of the strongest youth players will go to college (right now it is a tiny # that go directly to the pros) - is the ability to sign contracts w/pro teams while still in college. Otherwise, the colleges risk losing players at any time during the year since pro teams have different seasons in different countries. More and more will be made offers they can't refuse - it may not be F-you money but it may still be significant and, given the injury risk, hard to pass up. The closer one is to earning a degree, perhaps the risk diminishes of leaving early but it's going to happen.

If colleges want to keep players on their teams and not playing professionally all they have to do is pay them more in scholarships, NIL, cash, etc than pro teams are willing to offer.

It really is this simple.

 

[Zeke]

If colleges want to keep players on their teams and not playing professionally all they have to do is pay them more in scholarships, NIL, cash, etc than pro teams are willing to offer.

It really is this simple.

Or, colleges accept the fact that they are running a minor league. There is no reason to expect UCSD to outbid the Chargers. Triple A teams aren’t in the business of outbidding MLB for talent. They know their lane.

Then again, minor league baseball teams don’t generally complain about it when they lose a star pitcher to the majors earlier than expected. They just congratulate him, and move on to developing the next guy.

 

[Carlsbad7]

NCAA settlement on hold as judge urges revisions

A federal judge declined to grant preliminary approval to the House v. NCAA antitrust settlement Thursday, citing concerns with multiple parts of the terms of the deal.

www.espn.com

Judge rejected the NCAA settlement proposal.

Here's the details...
- NCAA tried to pull a fast one with NIL. Under the proposed settlement NIL groups would have to register with NCAA and if NCAA decided they didn't like a particular NIL group they could blackball them for whatever reason. Basically instead of controlling player actions NCAA would control the groups paying players. The judge saw through this and told NCAA to rewrite it. Which basically means get rid of it. Also Tennessee created a law that NCAA can't control NIL in any way. So either way NCAA is going to lose on this front.
- The judge also stated that the class action settlement NCAA is proposing basically fizzels out after 10 years. She believes that after 10 years NCAA will be in affect abusing student athletes again. NCAA said that student athletes are free to file another class action at that time. These statements guarantee that there will be litigation again in 10 years.

My take is that NCAA is screwed, their lawyers are fighting for anything possible. But the judge cut their reserve parachute yesterday. What NCAA gains is minimal if they continue with the settlement and even if the settle it will be a toothless win that will just go to trial again in 10 years. Where NCAA will lose again.

 

[crush]

NCAA settlement on hold as judge urges revisions

A federal judge declined to grant preliminary approval to the House v. NCAA antitrust settlement Thursday, citing concerns with multiple parts of the terms of the deal.

www.espn.com

Judge rejected the NCAA settlement proposal.

Here's the details...
- NCAA tried to pull a fast one with NIL. Under the proposed settlement NIL groups would have to register with NCAA and if NCAA decided they didn't like a particular NIL group they could blackball them for whatever reason. Basically instead of controlling player actions NCAA would control the groups paying players. The judge saw through this and told NCAA to rewrite it. Which basically means get rid of it. Also Tennessee created a law that NCAA can't control NIL in any way. So either way NCAA is going to lose on this front.
- The judge also stated that the class action settlement NCAA is proposing basically fizzels out after 10 years. She believes that after 10 years NCAA will be in affect abusing student athletes again. NCAA said that student athletes are free to file another class action at that time. These statements guarantee that there will be litigation again in 10 years.

My take is that NCAA is screwed, their lawyers are fighting for anything possible. But the judge cut their reserve parachute yesterday. What NCAA gains is minimal if they continue with the settlement and even if the settle it will be a toothless win that will just go to trial again in 10 years. Where NCAA will lose again.

 

[Mosafie]

All of us from the time we were born were told to go to college or be a ditch digger. For some reason and only Lord knows why, the girls were told, "if you want to continue playing soccer after club, you MUST go to college." This is where the Unicorn comes into play and their rich parents. A+ student plus 1400+ SAT and great soccer player=Unicorn That is wrong for a standalone soccer player. The guys don't get judged off their report card, but little Susie Soccer player has to be a goody two shoe, excellent student, do volunteer work and one that STFU. The GDA was all wrong and so is college soccer. I told you and the others big changes are coming, and boy was I right, again. Change can be hard on those with the most to lose. I appreciate your insights from your perch.

it's not a unicorn it's planning. Smart kids and parents use club soccer as another pathway into highly competitive schools. Even MIT and Caltech have sports team.

They don't need a scholarship or dream about some elusive pro contract. Getting into Harvard or Stanford is the goal. They may not even play a single minute in college.

No male soccer player with less than a 3.8-4.0 GPA is getting into Stanford regardless of skill.

 

[crush]

They don't need a scholarship or dream about some elusive pro contract. Getting into Harvard or Stanford is the goal. They may not even play a single minute in college.

100% true. It was all about the ticket into college and soccer was the door opener. Trust me when I say this. Lots of dark cash behind the scenes were being paid out from rich elites that only cared about college acceptance. That's what made me SMFH in 2017. I was sold YNT and Pro, not a college deal. The Yale coach was at my kids practices all the time trying to get my attention, but I had no money. I was told two rich parents would pay their way and because I got robbed in 2017, my kid would be free. Imagine that, free Ivy League school because one can kick a ball into the net. The whole thing is a big scam and now Karma has come to roast those who were cheating the system off the backs and legs of the girls.

 

[socalkdg]

Agreed. But one potentially huge change - and I think 100% necessary or fewer and fewer of the strongest youth players will go to college (right now it is a tiny # that go directly to the pros) - is the ability to sign contracts w/pro teams while still in college. Otherwise, the colleges risk losing players at any time during the year since pro teams have different seasons in different countries. More and more will be made offers they can't refuse - it may not be F-you money but it may still be significant and, given the injury risk, hard to pass up. The closer one is to earning a degree, perhaps the risk diminishes of leaving early but it's going to happen.

With no draft for the NWSL I do agree that some changes might be needed. Then again baseball players have been deciding between college and being in the minor leagues for years, but some of those signing bonuses are huge. I wonder if I would advise my son or daughter to leave school early for 50K, 100K, 250K? Will we see players sign with a club in November after the college season is over?

 

[socalkdg]

Or, colleges accept the fact that they are running a minor league. There is no reason to expect UCSD to outbid the Chargers. Triple A teams aren’t in the business of outbidding MLB for talent. They know their lane.

Then again, minor league baseball teams don’t generally complain about it when they lose a star pitcher to the majors earlier than expected. They just congratulate him, and move on to developing the next guy.

Except the MLB club owns the players on those minor league teams.

 

[davidnunez]

womens (or mens) soccer is not a cash cow for colleges. folks here are using examples from top 25 mens basketball and football programs and extrapolating to college soccer. If football and basketball end up being revenue neutral because they have to pay the players what they deserve, the soccer budgets will be close to zero and soccer programs will start shutting down. Karma is a different thing from the perspective of football vs soccer

 

[tjinaz]

it's not a unicorn it's planning. Smart kids and parents use club soccer as another pathway into highly competitive schools. Even MIT and Caltech have sports team.

They don't need a scholarship or dream about some elusive pro contract. Getting into Harvard or Stanford is the goal. They may not even play a single minute in college.

No male soccer player with less than a 3.8-4.0 GPA is getting into Stanford regardless of skill.

Ha funny you say that. Friend's daughter has offers from both. She plays ECNL-RL. Its not the soccer that got her to the offers its her grades. She is one of the very few that has the academics that Caltech and MIT need for admissions.

 

[Mosafie]

Ha funny you say that. Friend's daughter has offers from both. She plays ECNL-RL. Its not the soccer that got her to the offers its her grades. She is one of the very few that has the academics that Caltech and MIT need for admissions.

Yes.

There is a a recipe for admission. Want to get into any Ivy?

Do This:

Be an Athlete
Be in Math above Geometry in 9th grade
Take most/all available AP/IB courses
Have a GPA above 4.0.

This will open way more doors than any level of soccer skill alone.

 

[crush]

Yes.

There is a a recipe for admission. Want to get into any Ivy?

Do This:

Be an Athlete
Be in Math above Geometry in 9th grade
Take most/all available AP/IB courses
Have a GPA above 4.0.

This will open way more doors than any level of soccer skill alone.

Or, learn to kick a soccer ball and have your parents cheat with the middleman & coach in, "PAY FOR PLAY" I like your way better though. My son tried. Got a 4.4 and 1400+ but was denied.

 

[WatchthemPlay]

Yes.

There is a a recipe for admission. Want to get into any Ivy?

Do This:

Be an Athlete
Be in Math above Geometry in 9th grade
Take most/all available AP/IB courses
Have a GPA above 4.0.

This will open way more doors than any level of soccer skill alone.

This is correct but having just had discussions recently with 3 Ivy League coaches during recruitment…SAT and ACT scores matter (SAT requirement is likely coming back and you have to score well), you must continue to take a rigorous course load (not just easy A classes), keep grades 4.0+ through senior year, you commit to the admissions process (not commit to playing) because things can change if you don’t keep your grades stellar, and the top Ivies won’t even let you publicly announce your commitment until well into senior year. This is why a few still publicly state they have zero 2025 recruits. Also, there are no athletic scholarships so money is need based.

So essentially, you only go to an Ivy IF you are cool with the uncertainty of admissions, you have the money to pay for it or qualify for financial aid, and you are fine giving up all other scholarship offers in hopes admissions works out Senior year. It’s a huge decision, comes with risk and definitely isn’t as easy or glamorous as it sounds. PLUS the top soccer Ivies are extremely strong soccer programs with top players. You don’t just get an offer if you play soccer and have good grades. Some of the schools are on par with the top Power 4.

 

[RandomSoccerFan]

Yes.

There is a a recipe for admission. Want to get into any Ivy?

Do This:

Be an Athlete
Be in Math above Geometry in 9th grade
Take most/all available AP/IB courses
Have a GPA above 4.0.

This will open way more doors than any level of soccer skill alone.

This is necessary, but not sufficient. Even with all of the above, you still are only going to have a 5-15% chance of getting in, depending on particular major & school. If you are far off from any of the above, it's probably not worth trying.

 

[rainbow_unicorn]

This is correct but having just had discussions recently with 3 Ivy League coaches during recruitment…SAT and ACT scores matter (SAT requirement is likely coming back and you have to score well)

Do you know how well you have to score on SAT? 1300+, 1400+?

 

[RandomSoccerFan]

Do you know how well you have to score on SAT? 1300+, 1400+?

You're unlikely to find a firm minimum baseline, as there probably isn't a documented one. But if you look at sites like this for Yale, and this for Harvard, you can see that a 1470 is at the 25th percentile, while a 1560-1580 is at the 75th percentile. One can draw their own conclusions, but anyone with much less than a 1400 is at the very bottom of admits.

 

[Soccerfan2]

Do you know how well you have to score on SAT? 1300+, 1400+?

The Ivy coaches have a formula. They can have a few students a year at different GPA+SAT levels. The lower end is around 3.5 GPA and 1200 SAT. It’s the combination that matters, so the higher the GPA, the lower the SAT score can be and visa versa. They will do a pre check of GPA and PSAT during the first recruiting conversation and they will tell you explicitly what you need. They don’t bother advancing the conversation if you’re not already in the ballpark. As the previous poster said, they will also require a demanding course load all the way through senior year.

 

[Mosafie]

The downside with soccer is some Pay to Play clubs discourage kids from playing other sports. Or completely ban them ( MLS next). I have seen multiple elite soccer players go to college as recruits in other sports because it was simply easier than soccer for them.

R

This is correct but having just had discussions recently with 3 Ivy League coaches during recruitment…SAT and ACT scores matter (SAT requirement is likely coming back and you have to score well), you must continue to take a rigorous course load (not just easy A classes), keep grades 4.0+ through senior year, you commit to the admissions process (not commit to playing) because things can change if you don’t keep your grades stellar, and the top Ivies won’t even let you publicly announce your commitment until well into senior year. This is why a few still publicly state they have zero 2025 recruits. Also, there are no athletic scholarships so money is need based.

So essentially, you only go to an Ivy IF you are cool with the uncertainty of admissions, you have the money to pay for it or qualify for financial aid, and you are fine giving up all other scholarship offers in hopes admissions works out Senior year. It’s a huge decision, comes with risk and definitely isn’t as easy or glamorous as it sounds. PLUS the top soccer Ivies are extremely strong soccer programs with top players. You don’t just get an offer if you play soccer and have good grades. Some of the schools are on par with the top Power 4.

FYI many Ivys accept AP exam scores in place of SAT scores. They feel the AP tests better gauge the performance of students in subjects they have studies.