Not that way the law gen works. If it’s a valid treatment you are entitled to an accommodation.
5 biological men roster wins Australian women's soccer league title & also undefeated this season
- Thread starter Veritas
- Start date
12 pages already! LOL... stop making it complicated, penis=man, vagina=female... unsure= mental illness. First world problems: let's make normal complicated.
Well that’s why I think a better rubric to look at this is as a disability but the left activists don’t like that either.
So this would effectively be a T based league. How logistically do you level the playing field since you previously acknowledged the difference T levels of the individuals within these groups? Set a T standard and the those above it would have to take a T suppressant and those above it could take enhancers if they so choose?Well at least you are owning it........
(as to the 3rd category I'd throw in all others including ftm, intersexed, nonbinary low t, low t men, and any genetic xx that want to compete).
In my mind this smacks of everyone gets to ride the bus, but some of you are going to have to ride the short bus.
Well that’s typically how disability law works. Accommodations aren’t perfect. For example we require installation of handicapped accessible bathrooms in all new and remodeled public bathrooms but not (most) older public ones or private homes.
Details tbd and subject to fluctuation re acceptable levels (which btw ftms are already policed in higher competition because testosterone is a ped…we actually are doing this for them already). Up until 5 years ago scientists thought you could compensate for male puberty through suppressants but in at least track and swimming we now know that’s wrong. Adjustments will need to be made along the way. Some like soccer might not reach critical mass. But a short bus is better than no bus and it will dramatically improve the situation of ftm who right now are stuck.
Welcome to the Pee in the Cup League. You must work for a medical testing lab?
I have to admit the play by play commentary would be priceless:
"Hey Jim, I'm expecting Pat Jenner to have a big night tonight they just dropped a 5.0 nanomoles result yesterday, but I'm a little worried for Sam Bono as they checked in at only 3.0 nanomoles. We will have to keep an eye out for their performances tonight."
"Wait a second Bob, is that Cameron Cox going into the TAR review tent? Well Jim, you have expect that after they scored their fifth goal."
Great discussion you guys. If my words hurt your feelings, I sorry. If my openness makes you uncomfortable and you have to call me names to be a jerk, that's ok as well. I had dear friends (super conservative church going type) whose son came out as a MTF and also liked to do Drag Queen shows and now is a professional drag queen and makes good money as a side hustle. The church they attended with their children was over 1000 people and they were prominent leaders. Their son also played music and sang in the choir. Amazing family and amazing father I have known since 1988. He called me all the time in dire help, and this was back 2014. We both served in youth ministry as well in late 90s and early 2000s. I helped a few gay men in the church who were married to women but also struggling with desires to be with men and a few wanted to be with a man over a woman 95% of the time. This is a true-life stuff and real battle that some men go through. I only knew of one MTF and a few cross dressers and those who didn't like what God gave them and when you add the church shame and church judgement, it can be very insane for everyone involved, and this family handled it like a boss. I can share more if it helps, or I can STFU. More and more young boys are now gay and free. The big debate here should we allow boys and men to say the magic words, "I am a woman now" and automatically get a spot on the girls' team and force the girls to watch the MTF undress and take showers with them.
FTM are already monitored this way as are alot of the higher levels for peds. Since peds are basically testosterone, it’s how women with rare hormone balances are caught and how they are regulated. It already exists (and has to because of peds if you believe they have no part in a level playing field). That rubicon has already been crossed
whatithink
GOLD
The restrictions on Semenya are definitely an infringement of her rights, basically she has to dope to compete which is clearly absurd. Some people have an advantage. Sure, they have to back that up with hard work and such, but they still have a "genetic" advantage which makes the whole competition & fairness thing a bit silly. Look at Ian Thorpe the Australian swimmer with size 17 feet, i.e. "flippers", or Phelps with an "unnatural" wing span and huge hands which gave him a huge natural advantage in the pool. How about the best athletes / richest countries / biggest clubs having the best facilities and support structures which allow them to be the best prepared - nothing "fair" there? The shoe technology that is now available to some athletes which allows them to run faster is hardly "fair", but legit per the rules. Messi was given growth hormones from 11, was that fair or doping?
If someone has a natural advantage, then that's just their good fortune. They shouldn't be penalized for it. Messi would be the odd one out from my examples
She has been suspended for life by WBO and gets no prize money. If she truly is a biological female with a real vagina, I will be the first to eat crow and say sorry and say, "I was wrong." This would be illegal as well and flat out wrong. Based on what my eyes see and what I have read, she was born he biologically, but the old man wanted a girl. He is beating the shit out of the girls and that's not fair, especially in boxing for Gods sakes.
Thank you for articulating that much better than I did.The restrictions on Semenya are definitely an infringement of her rights, basically she has to dope to compete which is clearly absurd. Some people have an advantage. Sure, they have to back that up with hard work and such, but they still have a "genetic" advantage which makes the whole competition & fairness thing a bit silly. Look at Ian Thorpe the Australian swimmer with size 17 feet, i.e. "flippers", or Phelps with an "unnatural" wing span and huge hands which gave him a huge natural advantage in the pool. How about the best athletes / richest countries / biggest clubs having the best facilities and support structures which allow them to be the best prepared - nothing "fair" there? The shoe technology that is now available to some athletes which allows them to run faster is hardly "fair", but legit per the rules. Messi was given growth hormones from 11, was that fair or doping?
If someone has a natural advantage, then that's just their good fortune. They shouldn't be penalized for it. Messi would be the odd one out from my examples
Tim's bro is going to speak about his brother, Coach Tim Walz. Dirty dark secrets will be coming out today. Coach is for MTF, just like head coach at South Carolina. Kamala is 100% for any man who claims to be a lady to be immediately eligible to participate in women's sports and 100% allowed to undress and shower with the girls who have a vagina. Let's see what the brother has to say. Trump is 100% a "no" and will make it criminal if a Doc is caught cutting off a minor's body parts, regardless of if it's a penis, an arm, a finger, a foot, big toe, one of the child eyeballs or an ear. Any Doc caught cutting away, will go to prison. As long as we have crazy Docs looking to make a buck doing experiments on kids, we will have evil on the planet. My God, what kind of person would do such a thing.
It’s an interesting position. If the whole “competition & fairness thing” is a “bit silly” because so much of it is genetics, then what’s the point? Why grant athletic preferences and scholarships to schools? Why subsidize professional and collegiate women’s athletics? Why should kids waste time on competitive sports? Professional athletics at least has a market and entertainment value (to which you can apply a heavy redistribution like Rawls suggests), but if it’s all just a genetic fluke why bother with it all??? It’s like giving an award for biggest nose or floppiest ears…renders athletes participant in a best in show dog contest. And if it doesn’t matter why not just throw the women in with the men…coed for everyone, quota if you need to make sure there are a sufficient number of women. Why all this claim that there is merit to athletics if it’s all an accident of birth? And while you say Messi is the odd man out there, he’s a pretty big odd man out and while not ubiquitous, hgh is not uncommon in teen athletes (esp girls who have ended their growth but don’t want to go on testosterone for long term health reasons)…how does that (or the shoes, or high end golf clubs) fit in your rationalization? What about (I think it was crush who mentioned) giving your kid a Red Bull or adhd stimulants? What about low testosterone men on supplements to bring them up to average?The restrictions on Semenya are definitely an infringement of her rights, basically she has to dope to compete which is clearly absurd. Some people have an advantage. Sure, they have to back that up with hard work and such, but they still have a "genetic" advantage which makes the whole competition & fairness thing a bit silly. Look at Ian Thorpe the Australian swimmer with size 17 feet, i.e. "flippers", or Phelps with an "unnatural" wing span and huge hands which gave him a huge natural advantage in the pool. How about the best athletes / richest countries / biggest clubs having the best facilities and support structures which allow them to be the best prepared - nothing "fair" there? The shoe technology that is now available to some athletes which allows them to run faster is hardly "fair", but legit per the rules. Messi was given growth hormones from 11, was that fair or doping?
If someone has a natural advantage, then that's just their good fortune. They shouldn't be penalized for it. Messi would be the odd one out from my examples
Let's start with hormones and the dreaded period for real females. The fact a real woman has to deal with this every fucking month and someday have a baby, makes me support their own competitive league. If you cut off your penis and start having a period every month, you qualify for a discussion and that's it.
That's the worst argument I've ever heard. First of all, Messi is still 5' 3" and 110 lbs. If anything, his waist being 12" from the ground is an advantage. Ian Thorpe and Michael Phelps are both males with all the same access to training, diet and hormones. Phelps hooking up with trannies might sway the odds a little, but I can't say that's an advantage. Oh wait... probably the same testosterone intake for both, there, too.The restrictions on Semenya are definitely an infringement of her rights, basically she has to dope to compete which is clearly absurd. Some people have an advantage. Sure, they have to back that up with hard work and such, but they still have a "genetic" advantage which makes the whole competition & fairness thing a bit silly. Look at Ian Thorpe the Australian swimmer with size 17 feet, i.e. "flippers", or Phelps with an "unnatural" wing span and huge hands which gave him a huge natural advantage in the pool. How about the best athletes / richest countries / biggest clubs having the best facilities and support structures which allow them to be the best prepared - nothing "fair" there? The shoe technology that is now available to some athletes which allows them to run faster is hardly "fair", but legit per the rules. Messi was given growth hormones from 11, was that fair or doping?
If someone has a natural advantage, then that's just their good fortune. They shouldn't be penalized for it. Messi would be the odd one out from my examples
And since we know it's not always the 'richest countries' winning everything, you can toss that one out, too. Shoe technology? Don't all athletes at the top levels have access to the "fastest" shoes?
Afterall... You can't spell Semenya without "semen".
Oh gosh, I about spit out my peanut butter from my sandwich. See men, ya!!!
whatithink
GOLD
I don't particularly agree with collegiate sports or scholarships for athletes etc. If pro sports want to use colleges as their academies, they should pay for them. If the American Olympic committee want to use colleges as their development environment, they should also pay for them etc. I think if a collegiate sport can pay for itself, then I'm OK with that - it should and that should be that. If it can't, then make it (college) club and/or don't do it. I'm not a fan of Title IX in that (college sports) respect.
I'm all in with sports in general though, my kids play - I even still play. There are loads of benefits, social and health wise - its silly not to play if you can.
The Messi example was an obvious lure. The other example are of genetic advantages. Phelps is probably the absolute example of a "perfect" swimming design - 6'4", short legs, so long upper body, wing span of a 6'7" and huge hands ... and in addition his body naturally absorbs lactic acid at twice the norm meaning his recovery times are halved. None of that ignores the fact that he trained 365 days a year, for years, to achieve what he did.
So I wasnt aware that Semenya had a y chromosome. I thought she just had high T. So my position is that she is biologically male and should compete against men.
It turns out that she wasnt a genetically gifted woman as whatithink said and I agreed with, but a biological male.
This position kinda makes sense. If athletics is just about health and recreation, on the one hand, or entertainment and making the buck on the other, it lowers the stakes drastically. It would upend title ix, as well as athletic preferences for colleges, but your position is consistent that way. If you believe the telos of sport is not about merit but at worst just a recreational activity and best a best in show dog contest (which also involves some prep and investment on the part of the owner) this is logically consistent. Good point.
Out of curiosity, what’s your take on awarding merits such as college admissions based on iq tests (like the sat) or grades and course work (Rawls argues even studiousness is a genetic gift)? Not a gotcha. Just intrigued by the argument as i agree if athletics is not about merits it doesn’t matter.