You are missing the fact that i have said from the start that a significant number of these games should even be deemed competitive and as such do not require a referee.
7 vs 7 questions for SoCal League
- Thread starter Rhyser
- Start date
RandomSoccerFan
PREMIER
But we can apparently continue to ignore the underlying reasons and wish for better without providing any workable or feasible solutions.
Do you want to know how it's fixed in real life? I'll explain. First - reffing for U8 doesn't matter. At all. Nobody cares. If it's an actual safety issue, the coach can and should address. If the coach is the actual problem, the parent should address - either through the club for resolution, or just finding another team. It's that simple. There aren't enough refs, if any exist at all - great - the kids can play a game.
At the older levels, when play really does become more physical, and competition becomes that much more real - it can be more of a problem if the refs are terrible. At the NPL level for example (which is still a few rungs down the ladder), all matches are still required to have 3 refs, and clubs are required to "provide only their best refs" for the NPL games. Are there still problems from time to time - yes - see all of the above about the ref shortage. But what happens is that the coach and/or team mgr gets in touch with the ref assignor for the club, and let's them know in no uncertain detail, that "Ref Bob" is freaking terrible, and he shouldn't be at any more of our NPL games. Sometimes we've gotten in touch with the ref assignor for the other club directly - everyone tends to know everybody - and that can be helpful. And there is an after-game report that is submitted along with the game card by the team mgr at the end of NPL games, where they have to rate various things, from field quality, to ref quality, to the overall experience. With that data - the league can put pressure on clubs who continue to provide crappy refs to higher level games.
But a holistic solution requires many, many more refs across the board - and much, much better pay and conditions than what is currently offered - or is likely to be ever offered in the US for youth soccer.
You wanna be careful where you are headed here. Because it can be construed that you are saying "my kid is great, and everyone else's is garbage. They shouldn't be polluting my son's competitive game when they should be playing AYSO. My son is so great, he should be playing Aacademy right now....the US should have academies for youngers and my kid is among the 40 in Los Angeles that would deserve it". Reality is it's the first and second year, so the sorting is imperfect and will take place as you go through the years. Some kids which are early bloomers will not be amongst the top kids once puberty hits. I'm assuming as well that your kid is a January or February birthday, or else we need to have another discussion about that ugly reality.....
Point very well taken. It does come off as arrogant and ignorant. Never my intent....it was a generalisation of the of the overall setup!
How would you address an opposition coach in a U7 game yelling at half time loud enough that your boys can hear what he is saying:
"Sit your a$$ down and wake tf up. if you look at your parents or start crying you will never play for any club again. i promise you that soccer will be the last thing you will want to do. go out there make sure you hurt the other team. make sure they know you are there. kick, punch slide do whatever you need to i dont care!"
Yes we wrote to the league via the club. this was just 1 of the many incidents from that game. the ref refused to act on anything. the players did end up punching our boys in the backs/neck and trying to slide them out of the game. The ref refused to write anything up and just asked the boys to be substituted till eventually he called the game early. The ref was not a kid or young individual, he was at least 50 years old so inexperience wasnt an excuse either.
SoCal Soccer didnt respond with anything. this happened the second time we played the same team/coach and the league still didnt do anything. not saying that this has happens every game but the league does absolutely nothing for the 7v7 from the looks of it and their code of conduct etc is as Grace puts it very eloquently puffery!
Maybe we are dealing with it incorrectly or missing some key elements but from our experience in general it is that bad.
RedDevil24
SILVER
Great banter all but I throw a couple thoughts into the mix, as I have has experience as a parent, manager, coach, and referee--
Generally speaking I agree with Random and Grace (Especially) and they hit all of the key points that crossed my mind.
- Grace hit it on the head with US Soccer's PDI part of which seemed to have a trickle down effect on how/if leagues kept standings. you are barking up the work tree with SOCAL..... this is an initiative from US Soccer and US Club soccer. Look at any leagues ( I just quickly glanced at Norcal and AZ) and they all have blank scores and/or hidden scores.
- My impression is that your definition of "competition" (at least with regards to this particular topic) is different than most other peoples on this thread. Yours seems to be slightly more tied to results and declaring a champion rather that purely fair and balanced matches. I understand your argument regarding lopsided matches and its not a perfect system. To my knowledge SOCAL will use this years results to flight for next year but again its not a perfect system, especially which I would say year to year any given team has an attrition rate of 20-30% which can greatly affect a team
- Ref shortage is real. Last I heard we are short about 2-3K refs across all of So California. When my DD played 7v7 we always had 3 refs. Now our local ref association here mandates single ref games for 7v7 and 9v9. These games are by the way most lucrative for referees, so in theory you will often get the most senior referees from an association ( Senior by tenure not by age though both can be true lol). Paying them more will not necessarily solve the problem.....And if you want true "competition" then you will have to have 3 refs. But then 3 refs will make less than a single ref would (per ref) but its costing your teams more out of picket each game. And parents already complain about expenses.
Also I, even as a ref myself, share your frustration with mobility, minimum standards etc, but there is a referee shortage across all sports, mainly because of parent behavior. I know its a 2 way street but recruitment will be difficult until that changes. SOCAL is at least making an effeort to curtail ref abuse, you can now nicley see on the legue websity a weekly list of red card suspensions and its not a wonder why we have a shortage.
Generally speaking I agree with Random and Grace (Especially) and they hit all of the key points that crossed my mind.
- Grace hit it on the head with US Soccer's PDI part of which seemed to have a trickle down effect on how/if leagues kept standings. you are barking up the work tree with SOCAL..... this is an initiative from US Soccer and US Club soccer. Look at any leagues ( I just quickly glanced at Norcal and AZ) and they all have blank scores and/or hidden scores.
- My impression is that your definition of "competition" (at least with regards to this particular topic) is different than most other peoples on this thread. Yours seems to be slightly more tied to results and declaring a champion rather that purely fair and balanced matches. I understand your argument regarding lopsided matches and its not a perfect system. To my knowledge SOCAL will use this years results to flight for next year but again its not a perfect system, especially which I would say year to year any given team has an attrition rate of 20-30% which can greatly affect a team
- Ref shortage is real. Last I heard we are short about 2-3K refs across all of So California. When my DD played 7v7 we always had 3 refs. Now our local ref association here mandates single ref games for 7v7 and 9v9. These games are by the way most lucrative for referees, so in theory you will often get the most senior referees from an association ( Senior by tenure not by age though both can be true lol). Paying them more will not necessarily solve the problem.....And if you want true "competition" then you will have to have 3 refs. But then 3 refs will make less than a single ref would (per ref) but its costing your teams more out of picket each game. And parents already complain about expenses.
Also I, even as a ref myself, share your frustration with mobility, minimum standards etc, but there is a referee shortage across all sports, mainly because of parent behavior. I know its a 2 way street but recruitment will be difficult until that changes. SOCAL is at least making an effeort to curtail ref abuse, you can now nicley see on the legue websity a weekly list of red card suspensions and its not a wonder why we have a shortage.
The refs hands are tied here. Again the instruction for kids at this youngest age is that they are supposed to ask the coach for the players to be substituted and not eject/show cards. If the coach refused, the referee probably did/should have reported it to the league, but it's unlikely that the league would do anything since they don't really have any power anyways. The higher you go, the more the leagues have power but it becomes quite the scandal when a league or coach becomes removed (see what happened with Socal Elite) including the possibility of lawsuits so they'll only act if there is a clear and egregious breach that can be justified to the lawyers.
You are highlighting another reality which is there are a lot of dirtball coaches out there. Those dirtball coaches get stuck with the younger and lower level teams, for the most part. It gets better once they get into the older letter league brackets, but there are exceptions. As you get older and higher the experience gets better (not great, just better from the hellscape you find yourself in now).
The biggest problem which is why, as a foreign born person, it's probably hitting you harder, is that there is a lot of bad behavior in American sports, and not just soccer. I agree with your earlier statement that there is a cultural problem with that (but again, don't even get my started on Mexico). If you are Indian, wait til your kid gets a little older and kids start calling him the N word (yeah, my kid has had to put up with that). That's a reality you will have to prepare for. My kid was assaulted in one game when he was younger and suspended when he fought back (the rules say he's just supposed to take his beating). Recently, a former teammate of his threatened to gang up on him with others in the parking lot and jump him....ref heard but did nothing other than call for security to walk my kid out. Welcome to America.
RandomSoccerFan
PREMIER
OK, good example. How I'd deal with it depends on who I am in the example - am I a parent on your team, am I a parent on the other team, am I the coach on your team, or just a bystander. I will say that your experience is not unique. We have had fistfights on the field end more than a few games over the years, and even have seen fistfights occur - and the game actually wasn't called, and played on. Some coaches absolutely tell their players to go out and hurt the team - often in languages that they feel the refs won't understand, but some of our parents absolutely do.
So I'll try and prioritize the response. If I'm the coach of a U7 game, and the other team is obviously attempting (or succeeding) in hurting my players, I'll talk to both the ref and the other coach immediately to make sure I'm understanding the situation. If it's not resolved - I'm taking my players off the field and ending the game. Yes, I would hope that the ref would submit something to the PAD or similar governing body - but if they didn't actually issue the coach a yellow or a red - it's not uncommon for them not to.
If I'm the parent, I'd follow the coach's lead. They likely have more experience not only dealing with the ref, but also with the opposing butthead coach. Unless your kid is actually hurt (not risk of injury, not feeling unsafe, not wishing people were kinder), I'd leave all responses up to the coach and the club. The bad actor is a coach on another team, from another club, who is treating his players quite badly. My perception of the parents staying with that team are they are either woefully clueless, or they are complicit - not much wiggle room out of those choices IMO.
And going forward, in many of these leagues you'll see the same clubs and teams over and over again. If there was a notable incident in one of these games - before the next game with that club even starts, I'd have a discussion with both the ref and the opposing coach about how you are expecting this upcoming game to go (safely, fairly, etc.), and how you all should have a shared objective of same.
What I will also add though, is as a group, soccer parents at the youngest level tend to be overly sensitive about physical contact. Anyone that touches little Johnny or Emma on the field is abusing them, if they fall down their lawyer is on speed dial, and every opponent is this vicious brute that wants nothing more than physical destruction of their poor innocent cherub. The funny part is that parents on the other side feel the same way about your own child's team. The good news is that kids are pretty much made of rubber until they hit double digits. The actual incidents of any real injury or harm or very, very, rare - even if there some doofus 7 year old going around trying to hurt somebody.
You have misunderstood me. Competitive soccer is good, but the thing that we call "competitive youth soccer" in CA is not competitive soccer. Players with potential are better off not playing in our system because it's so bad. The coaching is bad, the emphasis on winning over playing good soccer, promotion and relegation at U10... silly. The level of play is so low that the few good kids develop terrible habits that they have to unlearn when (if) they finally make it to a higher level.
I'm very familiar with the European system. (My son plays in Europe every summer and is in the pool for a European youth national team.) If we had a European academy system here, then that's what I'd recommend, but we don't. If your players is strong enough to make LAFC or Galaxy when they're old enough, then great, but that's 40 kids out the entire SoCal (and you need to be able to drive there in the afternoons). It's really hard here for late bloomers.
If you like your coach, that's great, but I wouldn't spend any time worrying about the weekend games. They're nonsense. I'd put all that energy into technical training.
Maybe it's different in different countries, but this certainly isn't true in Poland.
[QUOTE}
It would be nice to see us get SoCal Soccer to change some of this in the future for both our kids currently playing and those that will be coming through the ranks. They are a for profit organization and there is no reason we shouldnt hold them accountable for what they claim to provide.
[/QUOTE]
I mean... sure. But SoCal Soccer is just one of the many organizations fighting for your dollar, all of which claim to be the best and none of which are particularly good. The leagues come and go, but the fundamental issue is the same. Southern CA is huge and the talent is spread out kids develop at different speeds and most US families don't know shit about soccer, so you get coaches talking about flights and tournament wins to recruit players and you get the mega clubs talking about "pathways" for their 4 or 5 teams (of happily paying families) in each age group in each location. It's a mess and (again) if I were to do it again, I'd drop it entirely. The only way to get anyone to listen is with your wallet.
The fundamental difference, though, is that an academy in Europe can profit off of the eventual sale / transfer of a player and this cannot happen with US clubs. The only income the clubs make is what you pay for the year. This incentivizes European academies to develop good players (so they can sell them... eventually). In the US, the incentive is to get as many kids in your club as possible.
Code
GOLD
None of these kids are making the decision to play on these teams or clubs. It is the parents responsibilty to make good choices for them. As you are witnessing, it is kind of irrelevant to play club soccer at that age. And I agree, you can't blame the clubs if parents are willing to support this system.
Phoenix Soccer Dad
BRONZE
Referees making $60 / hour in So Cal? No way ... based on AZ rates, solo centers for U19/U10 are $30 per game for 25 minute halves. Throw in travel time plus time between games, I don't see how you get that close.
At the highest paying youth levels I could see $220 for 3 games. Probably getting to the field around 830am and done at 1:45 pm. That's $42 / hour. I'd be highly surprised if So Cal 7v7 leagues are paying that much more.
At the highest paying youth levels I could see $220 for 3 games. Probably getting to the field around 830am and done at 1:45 pm. That's $42 / hour. I'd be highly surprised if So Cal 7v7 leagues are paying that much more.
RedDevil24
SILVER
Fees are on the Socal Site.....
At least in my area as I said earlier 7v 7 and 9v9 are single ref 30 min halves at $66. 10 min half time, and if your lucky 15 in between games. So in a 3 hour block 2 games about $42/hour
RandomSoccerFan
PREMIER
(here's that link to SoCal fees)
I'm also looking at a ref pay schedule for a typical club in NorCal. CR's range from $65 per game in the U17-19 ranges, down to $45 in the U11/U12 ranges. AR's make $5 to $10 less. In those various ages, there are different requirements for how many refs need to be there for a game to be valid, and it depends on both the age group of the players and the level of the bracket. For example it's still only 1 CR ref required up through U13 for Silver bracket or below, even though everyone would certainly want 2 or 3. For the littles (2 x 25 min) - it's a flat $50 per game for the single CR. The payments do not vary whether there are 1, 2, or 3 refs - it's not one pot that is then split depending on how many; the individual rates are what is listed for each ref in each game. On normal weekends with games all over the place, there are only so many games even the most eager ref could actually do (think 3 to 4 per day max), so calculated hourly pay and what that can realistically be expected per weekend needs to be accounted for. For tournament weekends where they can do back to back games on the same field, I have seen situations where a ref can do 8 games in a day (I certainly couldn't). Any way you look at it - it's hobby-level money for people who enjoy the sport and want to give back, or it's teenager money for someone who has no real expenses and is saving for teenager-type use cases. It's not a profession, it isn't paid like one, and I'd guess the pay would have to be 3x to 5x from today before that thinking would noticeably change economic behavior to bring many more refs, and more highly qualified refs, into the fold.
Something I saw in little league baseball which I thought was interesting was that they had 1-2 umpires the same age as the players on the field but off to the side there was an adult who was coaching them + helping out with tough calls.
This seems like something that could work very well for youngers rec soccer if all the refs had headphones to communicate.
When kids are on the field making calls adults don't get crazy + things don't get out of control.
This seems like something that could work very well for youngers rec soccer if all the refs had headphones to communicate.
When kids are on the field making calls adults don't get crazy + things don't get out of control.
Phoenix Soccer Dad
BRONZE
Thanks for the link, those rates are a little higher than here but in the ballpark. If the youngest ages pay $120 / game it's probably 60 for the center and 30 for each AR. Maybe 50 / 35 / 35. 60 minute halves plus HT plus time between games ... if you do 3 solo games you're making $198 for 4.5 hours or $44/per. Less if you're doing ARs.
Lots of good points in this thread - referee shortages are everywhere. Why? Bad behavior / low pay. The most experienced refs are doing MLS Next / ECNL / GA. Next tier are doing U17 - U19 State League. Next tier are doing U 14 - U16. Next tier is doing U13 - U11. By the time you get to U9 / U10 solos you're likely getting very new refs. There is very little infrastructure for training and development (not enough $$$ to build that system) and what exists targets the upper tier. We try to partner new ARs with experienced centers but there aren't enough higher level refs that want to do U12 and younger. So the new folks get thrown out there.
But is there much going on during the average U9 game that requires a top level ref? My experience says no. I think I've done ~10 solo 7v7s lifetime so small sample size. I've done way more U11 / U12 ... in seven years I can remember violent conduct in U12 or younger exactly once. OP makes it sound like every game is full of broken limbs, punches and mayhem. In my world, not so. As a parent, if you're yelling at a U10 ref about a throw in, foul, handling, or anything else you're doing something incredibly wrong.
Lots of debate in ref world about giving cards at younger ages. Some state associations explicitly tell you not to. We don't have a rule like that here but it's pretty rare. More common is to tell the coach, "Hey, can you tell #13 to play in a more safe manner?" "Coach, #13 is done for the day but you don't have to play a person short" gets used on rare occasions. As mentioned, there's just not much going on out there. Kids are more clumsy than anything and don't have the mass / can't generate enough force to do real damage on most occasions. I can count the # of serious injuries at all ages on two hands over ~ 1,800 games. If your particular player got hurt during a game, that sucks (my DD broke her leg during a scrimmage, although that was a fair tackle). It happens. But pretty rare.
Are there that many coaches out there with a Cobra Kai "sweep the leg" mentality? At that age group? I'm sure they do exist but I don't believe the problem is widespread. I can think of maybe 2 or 3 comments from coaches that crossed the line over the years. OP suggests this is every other week.
Maybe there is a bad actor out there as described, I have no reason to doubt you. I just don't think it's common. I would imagine the parents of the U7 screamer coach you described wouldn't stick around for very long.
Last thing - if you're at a match where you believe your child is in danger - because of the physical nature of the game, the inaction of the ref, the nasty behavior of the other coach, whatever - grab your kid and get the F out of there. If your house was burning down would you complain how slow the fire department was?
No easy solutions. Putting more money into the system would help but that comes from parents who already have a heavy financial burden.
I wouldn’t describe the behavior as common but I’ve seen quite a bit to know the op has a point about it. The behavior in d&d terms would be described not as “rare” or “common” but rather “uncommon”
I’ve seen it both as a ref and against my player. Once when he was 9 he was up against a Latino team with the coach constantly yelling at his players “bajen Los”…take ‘em down. Physicality is an integral part of the Mexican style of play but unless it is taught properly it can degenerate into just low skilled violence. Once saw a coach instruct the players to force the opposing striker out of the game by targeting him for an injury but thankfully my cr was on top of it and wound up ejecting the coach. More common in Latino teams but my kids first club year also went up against an Anglo team that was instructed to just shove kids out of the way and the ref was a “let ‘em play” ref so the game just degenerated into a shoving match and players slide tackling into each other…several were hurt including my kid, one somewhat seriously. Given the players have low body control at that age it can be dangerous but you are right they are more bendy and less body mass being thrown at them. Still, while soccer is a contact sport (and parents need to understand that) at the same time they didn’t sign up their kids for rugby or peewee football. And the concussion protocols in place have made folks hyper vigilant.
As to hanging out with a screamer you’d be surprised. I once volunteered for no pay to ar a game that was short a ref because I just happened to be there. Coach constantly berated his players, berated other team, berated me, berated the cr. Parents hung with the guy for several years despite being obviously ashamed of his behavior because he won. Manager even apologized to me and the crew afterwards but wouldn’t say boo to the coach for fear of getting her kid benched.
How many assumptions can we find in that post?
I am sorry you had to deal this. I have dealt with it myself being called all kind of names and my daughter had to deal with it from some parents and kids when she was 3 in pre-school. We have been talking to them about this since they both hit 3 years old. This is not just in America but all over the world. How we deal with here is just different.
My definition of competition is both tied to fair and balanced matches and declaring a champion. SOCAL doesnt flight any team, the clubs and coaches can elect to place their team in any flight they want. SOCAL only brackets them after you chose the age/flight registration. Thats partially why we have the lopsided matches. No oversight on teams prior performance.
This feels a little like a cop out. The refs hands are not tied, the refs just refuse to act in my experience. On top of that the league refuses to take action even with video evidence. Saying the league doesnt have power is also untrue as they can easily suspend the coach/club or even do more but they CHOOSE to do nothing. The bigger scandal than Socal Elite and more so harm will happen when a team/parents/club decide to SoCal Soccer League to the cleaners for inaction and misdirection of referees. I suspect that isnt far away given the way these games are being refereed.
That isnt how you count hourly pay. You only get paid for the time you are on the clock. 2 games - 140 minutes (30 minutes 2x halves and 10 min half time) = $56.57 and hour, i rounded when i said 60 an hour. When you go to work you dont start your 8 hour day from the time you leave your door to the time you get back home to calculate your hourly pay. Similarly you cant count the time in between games. I worked as a referee for 4 years through college in SoCal. Refereeing youth and adult leagues. I did this at a much lower rate as it was 20 years ago and i was still making a couple grand a month with it being a side gig. Yes the shortage is real and maybe we need to pay more but while we have incompetence being allowed and supplied by the league who is going to pay more?
From March of this year our team has suffered 2x concussions, 5x intentional stamps on the face (which we have on tape with coach complementing his players on it) and numerous dangerous plays (not clumsy - i am discounting those completely) egged on by the teams coach and parents. These are just the physical injuries. The ones that are worse are the psychological ones from what the opposition coaches and parents yell. I do not define referee/league inaction as limited to physical injuries but psychological and physical. At this age the phycological damage can be far worse than any physical injury that the other player can inflict. Also i am not just saying this on behalf of my child/team but on behalf of those parets like some have mentioned fear their kid being benched, not fully aware of their options or the odd one out on the team that notices the issue but is in the minority to speak up.
Completely agree and we have done that. This doesnt solve the problem though when you are playing in a league and then tournaments where the same teams come up against you. You can chose to forfeit but that only benefits the guilty team. Action should and needs to be taken / forced to be taken by the league or tournament host in each of these cases. But if everyone refuses to document and take action the subsequent host can be provided with previous documentation of the problem.
This eventual sale profit was made illegal in EU for contracts signed by parents on behalf of minors. I described this in some detail earlier. Clubs can have the same profit/commitment structure in the US as well as seen by the Kimbraugh contract at 13. Just because clubs havent caught on or chose not that shouldnt be used as an excuse. At the end of the day i am not faulting the clubs as i have stated on multiple occasions for being capitalist but i am saying the League needs to be better at regulation on several fronts.
This is the first i have heard of the red card list but cannot seem to find it anywhere on the site. If you have a link that would be great. The question is it even being enforced. At least 1 out 4 referees dont even bother verify player cards let alone check coach/parent cards in 7vs7.
RedDevil24
SILVER
Again as I mentioned in the same post your gripe is more with US Soccer/US Club Soccer that with SOCAL, because it is their directives that are leading the leagues to hide/not post the scores. As I said I just quickly glanced at NORCAL and AZ and their's is the same.
For first year brackets their are no prior performances to go by. The only solution would be to have sort of massive pre-season tournament and base the flighting on that. I know for subsequent seasons the league (at least the used to ) use previous seasons results for the following season bracketing--I think you could petition to be re-bracketed if Im not mistaken
I was not quoting pay rates for IRS or fiscal purposes.... I am just simply saying when a current (or perspective) referee and the say to themselves"Is it worth it?" I promise you this is what they look at
Here's and example... Happens all the time in my assn. Someone drops and the assignor says I have an AR position that pays $45. Its just a single game that's available. Well our assn mandates we arrive 30 min before that game to inspect the field and allow for adequate time for check in etc. 60 min game, 10 min HT. So that's 1:40 for single game. That's the time I have to be there. So in reality its about $27.
My point is its not always as enticing as it seems.
I will wee if I can attach the list, but for future. https://www.socalsoccerleague.org/, Resources, and its the frst on the list. This is just coaches and spectators.
BTW I agree enforcement is a mess. Problem is that the leagues allow photos and digital cards, and cards are no longer pulled by refers for RC offenses. And you can write in names day of the game. I would personally like to see game sheets frozen at midnight the night before a game.
Fines are pretty heavy if someone skirts a card but I am sure with lack of a better oversight system. We (refs) are supposed to keep a copy of all match rpeorts and I guess they can always retroactively enforce a fina and suspension.
And quickly to your point about checkin and cards. Part of the problem is that clubs schedule games so close together and the referees are in such a bind to stay on time (oftem because later they have to get to another field) that I am not surprised some do not check in the correct way.