7 vs 7 questions for SoCal League

[Socal-Soccer-Dad]

SoCal league appears to be the only relatively functional system in our area right now. The others as seen from multiple threads have died of or are basically splinter organizations. However, SoCal Soccer League seems to have no oversight and/or systems in place to register teams accurately. Currently, they have both a U8 and U7 league for Fall. In the U8 brackets they have over 150 teams registered with more than 40% of them being U7/U6 teams.

(a) Why are they allowing teams that are the wrong age group to register? This appears to be an automatic rejection that can be plugged in to GotSport but they dont use it?
(b) Is there some valid reasoning to this?

If a coach thinks a U7 team is pretty good and won't really benefit from being in a U7 bracket, he or she will register the team in U8...
It's likely first season of competitive soccer for these teams... it'll self correct...
They're U8.... does that really matter?

The 7 vs 7 brackets are also now closed in looking at results (granted you can still retrieve them with a little common sense from gotsport) and the League is not going to recognize winners / runners up or acknowledge the performance of any team.

They don't want crazy parents and coaches looking at game results for freaking 6 and 7 year olds... that's why...
Is it good for kids still learning the game to focus on winning because little Charlie can outrun everyone on a long ball kicked haphazardly from a teammate and just tap it into a goal that is way too big for a 6 year old goalie to cover?

(c) Considering we pay the league fees, managers/coaches enter the scores, we print the teams sheets for the referee, pay the referee fees for each game, provide corner flags etc - what does the League do? Isnt this equivalent to us hiring and paying someone to do a job only for them to come over and watch you do the job your self? The entire 7 vs 7 section are glorified friendlies with with majority of the teams wrongly bracketed and/or even allowed to play club instead of having them play in a recreational league.

"glorified friendlies" are EXACTLY the goal. that's by design, not accident.
The league does see the scores though. And it could affect where the teams are registered for state cup and or how they'll be registered the following fall season.

(d) Given that so many teams are wrongly registered in each age bracket and flight what kind of oversight is there on an organization like this to prevent abuse of children and parents from clubs and the league just milking them for their money? Looking at all the scores in many of the U8 and U9 brackets there only appears to 1 maybe 2 out of every 9/10 teams that actually should be in club soccer.

"milking them for their money" - haha you've described club soccer at 7 years old accurately!

again, when you're looking at wins and losses and determine this or that team should be in club or not at the younger ages, I think that's the wrong mentality. You can argue if there should be club soccer at that age in general. But in terms of kids there already, it's all about INDIVIDUAL development and team result shouldn't really come into play. I mean winning games and tournaments certainly make it more fun for the kids and more fun = kids staying in it = development.

(e) Lastly, but most importantly given that SoCal Soccer never has any representatives at games and dont want to listen to feedback from Coaches / Managers who watches out for teams flagrantly violating the league rules especially those related around other coaches screaming and berating their own players?

There are THOUSANDS of league games... how will they send a representative to each of those games??
Coaches and TMs and Refs all report things up to the league. Coaches berating their own players should be dealt with internally with parents and DOC at the club. Parents are paying customers. They choose the club/team/coach. We can certainly make a decision if screaming/berating is above the acceptable threshold for each individual family.

 

[Socal-Soccer-Dad]

I am only saying it needs to do what it says it provides - competitive youth soccer league. Right now it is not doing what it claims to be at its very essence.

at the younger ages, it's going to be a hodgy podgy of "talent" and skill level... it's just the way it is... kids develop at different pace (size, skill, mental)
the talent will start to congregate to a few teams in SoCal... and those teams will duke it out at big tournaments... when they can sort of truly face "competitive" competition...

when they get a little older, the letter leagues (EA, ECNL, MLS Next, GA, etc) will try to correct some of that but there will still be teams that don't measure up and will struggle in that league... after all, every EPL season (and every league in the world), there are teams that barely win... and get relegated...

 

[Socal-Soccer-Dad]

- referees are evaluated by coaches / managers at the end of each game and consistent poor rating disqualify them from being assigned to future games with out further training.
- referees need to meet a minimum health and fitness level

not bad recommendations...
but there is a shortage of refs....
this is never going to work...

 

[Socal-Soccer-Dad]

The clubs and leagues are selling a product that’s supposed to be better than the local park program or AYSO Core or even the larger clubs own rec programs. In reality, 99% of the time it’s not at U10 and below, maybe even U12 and below if you throw in the all-star or extra teams.

Oh I don't think this is entirely true.

It might be true of flight 2, 3, 4 club teams. I do think if a kid is going to play flight 3 club in the younger ages, then save the money and time commitment and just have the kid play another year or rec and if he or she wants to improve, take the money and time saved and do futsal or find a good small group training, etc.

But if the kid is playing on a competitive flight 1 team at U10 and the team/club has access to some of the premier tournaments around SoCal and then play Pre-ECNL or EA in U11 and U12, I think that's markedly better than local park or rec leagues. (One of my kids took that path and another took the rec+ path as he was also playing different sports and soccer wasn't a main thing. HUGE difference in quality of kids and training levels and league and tournament competition between top team at a big club vs even AYSO all star or extra...)

 

[chipmonk]

Oh I don't think this is entirely true.

It might be true of flight 2, 3, 4 club teams. I do think if a kid is going to play flight 3 club in the younger ages, then save the money and time commitment and just have the kid play another year or rec and if he or she wants to improve, take the money and time saved and do futsal or find a good small group training, etc.

But if the kid is playing on a competitive flight 1 team at U10 and the team/club has access to some of the premier tournaments around SoCal and then play Pre-ECNL or EA in U11 and U12, I think that's markedly better than local park or rec leagues. (One of my kids took that path and another took the rec+ path as he was also playing different sports and soccer wasn't a main thing. HUGE difference in quality of kids and training levels and league and tournament competition between top team at a big club vs even AYSO all star or extra...)

1000ish club teams in California. I’ll be generous and change it from 99% to 95%, so you can say those top 50 teams are worth it. I’d still argue with at 7x7 and 9x9 though. I’ve gone through both paths as well and seen some of those big name clubs play against all star teams at 7x7 and the ‘quality’ difference was minimal in our case. But you seem to mostly agree, since you’re mostly saying arguing that a pre-ecnl or pre-mls team is worth it, but again, that’s the top 1-3% of teams at 9v9 which is the exception. Since a large percentage of those kids drop when puberty and/or other interests hit, I’d still argue that they would have been better off in a good rec league, but I understand going for the opportunity.

Most of the rec leagues partner with someone good to run free clinics for the kids who want 3 trainings a week instead of 1. The training sessions for the littles aren’t that complex and over-coaching at that age is a problem. If someone can’t find a local rec league at 7x7, you probably didn’t look hard enough because they were biased against it in the first place.

 

[Grace T.]

1000ish club teams in California. I’ll be generous and change it from 99% to 95%, so you can say those top 50 teams are worth it. I’d still argue with at 7x7 and 9x9 though. I’ve gone through both paths as well and seen some of those big name clubs play against all star teams at 7x7 and the ‘quality’ difference was minimal in our case. But you seem to mostly agree, since you’re mostly saying arguing that a pre-ecnl or pre-mls team is worth it, but again, that’s the top 1-3% of teams at 9v9 which is the exception. Since a large percentage of those kids drop when puberty and/or other interests hit, I’d still argue that they would have been better off in a good rec league, but I understand going for the opportunity.

Most of the rec leagues partner with someone good to run free clinics for the kids who want 3 trainings a week instead of 1. The training sessions for the littles aren’t that complex and over-coaching at that age is a problem. If someone can’t find a local rec league at 7x7, you probably didn’t look hard enough because they were biased against it in the first place.

Disagree strongly here. My kid played 3 seasons when he was a younger in Coast bronze. The AYSO all star and regular teams that transitioned almost always struggled even in the third/fourth division (AYSO United Teams were different....they could aggregate the top talent across the region). Even after he left, I heard a funny story from the same league of an AYSO State winning All Star team that transitioned to club as 09s that weren't allowed by coast straight into silver so they played in 08s bronze with a handful of 08 kids because they were absolutely sure they were going to pound the competition. They wound up losing their games by almost 10 points all the time and the coaches widely acknowledged to their families they had made a mistake.

At least for my kid the deciding factors for transitioning out of Core and into Extras was: 1) the quality of coaching level that you got in core...you never knew how knowledgeable the coach was going to be, 2) the variance in player quality including some kids with some handicaps who were not handicapped enough to play in VIP and 3) the fact he wanted to play all year and tried to get other players from his team to practice and go out together for Extras but they either wanted to play other sports or use their Disneyland AP passes. The overall commitment level is just different: the difference between sampling v. a dedicated hobby. His experience, BTW, with Latino league has been the exact opposite....those kids love to play and are doing it just for love of the game.

 

[Carlsbad7]

I do think if a kid is going to play flight 3 club in the younger ages, then save the money and time commitment and just have the kid play another year or rec and if he or she wants to improve, take the money and time saved and do futsal or find a good small group training, etc.

100% agree with this statement. Playing "competitive" soccer on the 3rd or 4th team doesn't make much sense. What you're paying for in these types of teams is a dedicated coach (not a parent coach) quality is hit or miss, better fields (usually) than rec, and parents that are more into tournaments.

Futsal, Arena, Mexican Leagues will provide much more touches on the ball in a shorter amount of time than traditional field soccer. The more your kid touches the ball the more they can practice dribbling, passing, shooting, etc. Also, for girls especially at younger ages its fairly common to train with boys in Futsal. This makes a HUGE difference in how girls play on the field they get more aggressive + make faster decisions.

 

[Carlsbad7]

I wonder what would happen if a club only did futsal until 9v9. Then at 9v9 switched over to only playing field.

You'd have a bunch of super skilled players that likely weren't aggressive on the larger field. What this would mean is that all coaches would need to teach is aggressiveness, larger field tactics, and shooting. The coaches would never have to teach individual skills because that's all Futsal is.

 

[chipmonk]

Disagree strongly here. My kid played 3 seasons when he was a younger in Coast bronze. The AYSO all star and regular teams that transitioned almost always struggled even in the third/fourth division (AYSO United Teams were different....they could aggregate the top talent across the region). Even after he left, I heard a funny story from the same league of an AYSO State winning All Star team that transitioned to club as 09s that weren't allowed by coast straight into silver so they played in 08s bronze with a handful of 08 kids because they were absolutely sure they were going to pound the competition. They wound up losing their games by almost 10 points all the time and the coaches widely acknowledged to their families they had made a mistake.

Your anecdote about your kids rec team playing in a club league is matched by plenty of other club teams playing in the lower flights. And your other point is about a team making a bad choice and playing up an age group (possibly around the same age as kids in the older age group and hitting their growth spurts?) but was possibly a middle of the pack team in the proper age group? CSL IIRC CSL only has 2-3 levels at 7x7 and 9x9.

There’s also the South LA AYSO girls team that switched over and did really well. The anecdotes go both ways.

Again, we’re talking about 7v7 and the first year of 9x9 where it’s just as likely for a club team to provide a crappy experience as a rec league as the OP was describing. Let your kid be the best on a team for 3 months, then join an all star steam for 3 months. At that age, get them watching YouTube videos of soccer trainings and tricks instead of those fricking toy unboxings so they want to go outside and juggle instead of going to target and buying crappy toys.

His experience, BTW, with Latino league has been the exact opposite....those kids love to play and are doing it just for love of the game.

There you go, sounds like you found the good rec league in your area. This is how it should be for most kids. Just play a lot with a bunch of it being loosely structured. Most clubs at the younger ages aren’t enabling that.

 

[crush]

100% agree with this statement. Playing "competitive" soccer on the 3rd or 4th team doesn't make much sense. What you're paying for in these types of teams is a dedicated coach (not a parent coach) quality is hit or miss, better fields (usually) than rec, and parents that are more into tournaments.

Futsal, Arena, Mexican Leagues will provide much more touches on the ball in a shorter amount of time than traditional field soccer. The more your kid touches the ball the more they can practice dribbling, passing, shooting, etc. Also, for girls especially at younger ages its fairly common to train with boys in Futsal. This makes a HUGE difference in how girls play on the field they get more aggressive + make faster decisions.

My son played Rec for a few years and had a blast. He was scouted at a early age around when he was 7. AYSO Select wanted him but he didn't want them. He liked his rec team. His U10 team lost to the Smashing Pumpkins in the playoffs and my kid let a ball go through his leg playing GK in Golden Time with the Golden Goal rule in OT and that's when I saw him crushed with embarrassment, shame, guilt, let his team down and he ran off to the parking lot. It was brutal and I felt his pain. I tried to teach him to be a good sport and shake the hands and say goodbye to his pals but he would not. He blamed himself for the loss and took it way too hard. He was recruited later that year at big local club when he was 9 because he was fast, and I mean super-fast. Enough speed to catch an eye of a Doc at U9 in the local Temecula area. He said he saw potential (speed really) in my boy and with enough practice, he could develop my son. We went to a "tryout" and my kid was not going to make the team. Coach saw it as well because there is much more to soccer then speed. He offered my son a B team spot for $1500 and a chance to play against the A team during scrimmages and get destroyed. My son was a no way dad and he stayed Rec. The point I'm making is too many kids and their parents think their kid is Elite or they get sold a B Team with a chance to be developed into a Mia Hamm Elite type of player. My son overcame his failures in sport and played soccer in High School and Football. He really didn't give a shit about making a mistake anymore and that's what life is about. You don't lose, you learn.

 

[Grace T.]

Your anecdote about your kids rec team playing in a club league is matched by plenty of other club teams playing in the lower flights. And your other point is about a team making a bad choice and playing up an age group (possibly around the same age as kids in the older age group and hitting their growth spurts?) but was possibly a middle of the pack team in the proper age group? CSL IIRC CSL only has 2-3 levels at 7x7 and 9x9.

There’s also the South LA AYSO girls team that switched over and did really well. The anecdotes go both ways.

Again, we’re talking about 7v7 and the first year of 9x9 where it’s just as likely for a club team to provide a crappy experience as a rec league as the OP was describing. Let your kid be the best on a team for 3 months, then join an all star steam for 3 months. At that age, get them watching YouTube videos of soccer trainings and tricks instead of those fricking toy unboxings so they want to go outside and juggle instead of going to target and buying crappy toys.



There you go, sounds like you found the good rec league in your area. This is how it should be for most kids. Just play a lot with a bunch of it being loosely structured. Most clubs at the younger ages aren’t enabling that.

The problem with replicating with Latino league is the same reason he bought out of AYSO. AYSO markets itself as inclusive. That's why before they had Extras/VIP/United, AYSO had everyone play together from the future pro to the handicapped kid. But the problem is the future pro doesn't develop if they can't get the ball to him/her, and the handicapped kid just feels bad because even at younger ages they know he'll lose it and won't give him the ball. Latino league by contrast usually has a wider age range but it tiered. And by the time you hit the older ages, the kids on the higher tier are the ones that love it, or are club players playing for extra touches on the ball. The Latino leaguers also do tournaments, including out of state and internally, again all for love of the game. You can't compare that to an AYSO youngers team where some kid may care more about science but his parents are making him go, or a kid that rather be playing baseball but he is still in the sports sampling phase Europe fixes this problem by tiering rec. We (generally) don't have that option here, which is why club developed the way it did. It's essentially tiered rec in the early years, except for the very highest of levels.

The other difference is you get to try out for club and see what the coaches are like. It's not perfect, especially for first time parents, but it assures at least the coach knows the basics. You don't necessarily get that in AYSO core. Yes, you can lobby for a coach (we did that his last AYSO year) but it's entirely random and some teams are formed without even having a coach in place. I've told the story before how my kid's first coach put them all in football three point stances on the kickoff and had them rush the goal (hey it worked, but they learned nada). My father (a former low level pro player) even got dragged into assistant coaching (I think it was his 2nd AYSO year)....he felt really overwhelmed as an AYSO coach that didn't know what he was doing by way of teaching, even though he had played the game himself.

Finally, there's a reason why latino league exists as a rec option. Most of the parents there who have at least some knowledge of the game wouldn't put their kids into AYSO even if it were an option.