RandomSoccerFan
GOLD
I didn't reference my elevation once - it may be underground for all we know. I was just quoting one of several examples of how and why you come across as you do. Good luck on your journey.
7 vs 7 questions for SoCal League
- Thread starter Rhyser
- Start date
I didn't reference my elevation once - it may be underground for all we know. I was just quoting one of several examples of how and why you come across as you do. Good luck on your journey.
BTW the self sorting problem still takes place in Coast Soccer too with pro/rel. It's just the higher level are somewhat more immune to it. Still some examples:
-There's a team right now in the older brackets that's playing championship that only has 12 kids on the roster (absolute minimum). That means in any game they will not have subs and in all likelihood will have to play shorted because kids at this age get sick, get injured and have obligations.
-In case the argument is well Coast is a mess right now, the same thing happened to a silver team my son was on a few years back. Coach lost 3 players right before the season to letter league teams (which didn't make up their minds with offers until August).
-last year there was a bronze U14 team made up of AYSO all stars. The team had won several state AYSO competitions and been placed into nationals. But it was made mostly of 12 year olds. Coaches were sure their shiny new team moving over to club for the first time was going to blow everyone out of the water. Played them up because Coast didn't allow them to play straight into silver. That was a huge mistake as the coaches had completely overestimated their team and lost a key player to a letter league right before season.
No sorting system will ever be perfect unless you are willing to subscribe to an AYSO type monopoly system that has the ability to command sorting based on tryouts (people would scream and the corruption including outright bribery to be placed on a higher team would be amazing to see).
To me it sounds like @Rhyser understands how European Academy systems work + is trying to apply it to how Socal youth soccer is setup. It also sounds like they are expecting a certain level of quality/knowledge in refs.
Unfortunately most Americans don't understand Soccer at a higher level. What this means is they don't get that certain things need to occur in a soccer players development at a young age if they plan to play at the highest levels. Also because soccer isn't the most popular sport refs sometimes can be lacking.
Things are slowly changing. I believe that eventually true Academies will become more popular as more parents better understand why they exist.
Unfortunately most Americans don't understand Soccer at a higher level. What this means is they don't get that certain things need to occur in a soccer players development at a young age if they plan to play at the highest levels. Also because soccer isn't the most popular sport refs sometimes can be lacking.
Things are slowly changing. I believe that eventually true Academies will become more popular as more parents better understand why they exist.
The other thing about European academies is they start younger than they do here in the US and are pushing ever younger. They also apply only to a very small fraction of the soccer playing population, with everyone else playing tiered rec.
Then you should take you kid out of competitive youth soccer until high school age. There's no upside.
If I were to do this again with my son, I would find a great clinic (swap, solv, whatever great coach is in your area) and just do that and futsal until 8 or 9th grade. It's far more important to develop skills than to worry about competitive matches. I see U8 coaches yelling at kids about tactics and U8 parents getting worked up about refs and offside calls. It's ridiculous. In a game, a player gets an average of 5% of the touches and makes, what, 10 passes max? Kids need to touch the ball 100x more and make 100x more passes in an hour of training. Games at that age are there to satisfy the parents, but they actually waste the kids' time.
I think you misunderstood my point. Making wining the center was never my intent but recognition of achievement / accomplishments should be honored and the teams that earn that should be recognized. The purpose of "Club / Academy" level in my understanding was higher development and competition. Otherwise what makes it any different than pick up soccer at recess in schools?
The development and training comes from the Club your child/player is registered with and the competition from the league you play in. Not sure why people keep saying it doesnt matter at this age given that most academies across the world start youth development and identification at U7/8 and U10 is where international tournaments start.
Soccer can be all three if we make it as such. Condoning non-competitive, unregulated league play only allows for mediocrity. Accessibility has nothing to do with Club Soccer but everything to do with soccer in general. The sport can be accessible to all however the competitive aspect needs to be earned for those ready for it. This is true for any sport at any age being played as competition and that is what the SoCal Soccer League claims to be and provide. It is not recreational nor is it weekend baby sitting why do we seem to treat it as such and allow it to be run as such?
I am sorry but either i am misunderstanding you or you are sorely mistaken. please see my post above. International soccer starts at U10 level. While i dont disagree on training and the need for that, competition is equally important for development. We have a great coach, that isnt the issue nor my original post or issue being discussed. Removing someone from competition is just stiffling a players growth. Starting competitive soccer at teen years prevents fundamental development in team play dynamics during their formative years.
Lastly, the reason the games are there to satisfy the parents in the manner you describe is because of the way things are run. I would suggest watching a U9 / U10 game in Italy / Spain / UK or even South Korea for that matter. You wont see the parents and coaches yelling the way they do over here. That is because they dont have kids not ready for "competitive play" playing club soccer. The clubs/academies/leagues place those players in Pre-Club, Rec or other appropriate program.
Thanks....this is pretty spot on.
That is correct and my point. Why are rec level teams playing club soccer and why is the league not doing anything about it?
The answer is fairly simple.
In Socal there's enough paying consumers for "club soccer" that the clubs have created multiple levels of "talent" to give paying customers what they want.
In the US clubs don't own players or the development of a player. (Its against the law) In other countries its the opposite which allows clubs to sell talent to higher level clubs and pocket a huge Transfer Fee when doing so. Transfer Fees fund all the rest of the players in the club which keeps costs down.
Since we don't have Transfer fees in the US players (parents) foot the entire bill for developing talent aka pay to play.
RandomSoccerFan
GOLD
I don't have any information at all about European academies, so I couldn't compare/contrast - but this seems to be a spot-on description of most club soccer in the US. I also think that some of it comes down to a difference in terms. In the US, "competitive" doesn't mean awesome, good, or even passable. It's just a very broad distinction between leagues primarily created with the intention of keeping all teams & all matches as equal as possible - and leagues created to have teams and clubs that aspire to succeed against competitors, with the corollary that the players have aspirations of competitive success. The former is rec - the latter is comp. To some - anything less than Flight 1 may as well be rec soccer - given the quality of play. Others may consider that unfair. Yet others may consider Flight 1 rec as well - given the level of play of some Flight 1 teams.
Rec is done at very low cost, mostly (or entirely) volunteer, and is a fantastic way to get into the sport to see if it's something the kid would want to pursue. But pretty soon - many parents who want to make sure their kid is given all available opportunities - see Rec as for "those other kids", while their kid is clearly good enough to require joining a comp team soon after they learn how to walk. The obvious and inevitable conclusion of that thinking means just as many "comp" teams/club are created to fill that need, as there are parents who are happy to pay the fees. The backlash of then realizing that "comp" really isn't that high level soccer until you get to both the older age groups and/or quite close to the top of the brackets shouldn't be a surprise outcome.
You are actually quite mistaken about player rights and ownership. This was partially true 2 decades ago however a lot has changed. Clubs are not allowed to own player rights in youth sports in the EU and/or most major development centers across the world. They can however tie down a player to a professional/semi-professional contract exactly as they do in the US from age 12 onwards (see Da'vian Kimbrough). Furthermoe, they cannot offer contracts to international players until they turn 18. They can sign them at an earlier age (16) but cannot bring them over to their country and academy until they are legally adults at 18. The only work around to this is if the players family immigrates to that country on their own. This is actually governed by not only EU Law but also FIFA.
The average cost of a good academy in Spain is between 25,000 and 40,000 Euros a year, compared to ones in the UK which can start at 40,000 pounds a year going up to 100K+ for the top academies, significantly more than anything here in the US. Keep in mind these academies are not purely soccer center but provide schooling, housing etc. A contracted youth player cannot be sold but has an obligation to the club with which they are contracted similar to the way someone is obligated in the US when their firm/company pays for further education. You either have to continue working for the firm/company till you pay off that investment or you/someone else pays off your debt/loan. The training/coaching/education the academies provide are essentially a loan in lieu of the athelete playing for the club in the future. They do always have to opportunity to buy out their contract and move to another club or quit playing if they want to. This is no different in the US with sports scholarships in high school and college. You cannot take a Football scholarship with UCLA but then play for USC. The alternative is you pay out of pocket for your own training/development/education. I hope this helps provide perspective.
There is nothing wrong with Clubs giving paying customers what they want, my point has always been that the league needs to moderate how they allow these "multiple levels" created by the clubs get treated when it comes to level of competitive play.
I appreciate the added detail around player contracts. You are correct I didn't know how it worked at that level. I also like the idea of a loan to be paid back at a later date.
In regards to leagues, clubs are the customers. Clubs want everyone to play in a league because it maximizes their profits.
The question is if everyone plays club soccer and the scores are wildly all over the place what exactly are coaches teaching? Sure the big fast kids will always have an advantage but superior coaching should be able to mitigate to some degree.
In the end I think younger ages youth soccer is just a cash cow that nobody really wants to change. Can the leagues be better? Yes, but the changes implemented might mean less $$$. Maybe as Americans get better at identifying high level play things will change.
Here’s the dif. In Europe the academies are limited only to a very handful of kids on the pro track who are ruthlessly bought and sold as commodities and cut loose. Europe in schools is also testing based so by about age 10 you have to choose between being on the athletic arts or academic track with severe consequences for getting it wrong
you seem to think us club soccer is an elite system. It’s not. It’s a mess because it’s trying to be different things to different people. The docs want it to make money for them. The coaches want a job doing what they love. The future pros want to develop skills to get picked up by an academy. A large chunk of the kids are on the college recruited track and so want to accelerate to the top of the bracket and get on teams that get notices to be seen, but don’t want to trash their grades. Another large chunk is in it to win the trophies and don’t care about development. Another chunk is in it because they want to play high school and it’s the only way they can develop the skills. Another chunk just wants to have a good time and exercise and socialize but they can’t do in rec because everyone else has gutted it (as dad4 once said, it’s all about the hair bows).
If it tries to be all these things to everyone, it will fail.
That’s not fully true. I follow the Spanish academy youth leagues (which btw are 9v9 and on smaller fields longer than the us). The parents absolutely go bat shit crazy. They post the videos on YouTube. Pre academy and rec are even crazier. And the difference as others have pointed out is that very few kids (only future pros, which for the girls are absolutely a tiny amount) are on the academy track. Almost everyone else plays tiered rec
it seems your primary complaint with the system is that the us academy program doesn’t really get started until age 11 unlike other countries. There’s an intense debate around that but the reality for the mls teams is they’d need to do multiple teams at that age and that means $$$ they don’t have (Most don’t even have a u16). Even so, your kid would have to be a boy and eligible for at that age one of the 20 or so slots that in SoCal would be offered only by la Galaxy, lafc (or soon to be San Diego).
Again because here in Southern California the only true academy teams are galaxy lafc and soon to be San Diego. They don’t start til age 11. Your kid right now is playing rec +
This is categorically untrue in the last 2 decades. They CANNOT be bought and sold like commodities. I have explained how the system works in a post above and how it is regulated hope that can provide some clarity. Also your description of schools in Europe with children having to chose between sport or academics at such an early age is also completely wrong. My answers arent just based on research or belief but 1st hand experience having gone through it myself. I went through schooling in Asia, Europe and the US. I played / was a contracted athlete and scholarship student in both Europe and the US. Your understanding of the systems in place and how they work appear to be very wrong but then again a lot is lost in messages over here so it could also be the way that you have summarized it. I recommend you look at some of the academies that are offered in other countries at youth level. The school i went in the UK has had representation at every Olympic games since 1968. However, while the school has a pedigree in sport we are also a top 10 school in academics as well and i came to the US as a freshmen in college with Junior standing, (which is the fairly common) for most students coming in having completed that level of High School education in Europe.
Academies in Europe are the same as clubs in the US and will enroll any and all children that can pay in addition to the ones that they offer scholarships /contracts to. However the League(s) that they compete in hold the academies accountable for the teams that they put out and the academies/clubs themselves curate their teams to play at the right level to match the league standards but also to maintain their standards. This is NOT to say that they are anywhere close to perfection but they do at least provide what they claim. This is where SoCal Soccer League fails us in my opinion. They do not hold the clubs or themselves accountable for anything. They are false advertising and we are condoning that behaviour by saying that this is the norm and how it works and/or justifying their actions. This is directly taken from their website:
"SOCAL is a youth competitive soccer organization, sanctioned by US Club Soccer that offers programming for players U7-U19, boys and girls."
Everyone here seems to agree that competition is perceived at best in the 7 vs 7 age categories and the fact that they do hide results clearly undermines/removes the "competitive" aspect of their organization. So i pose the question, why are we ok with this? The question is partly rhetoric given the feedback we have seen from everyone and the PMs i have recd with reference to the same issues/concerns/questions that other parents have had or faced. It would be nice to see us get SoCal Soccer to change some of this in the future for both our kids currently playing and those that will be coming through the ranks. They are a for profit organization and there is no reason we shouldnt hold them accountable for what they claim to provide.
This is true of parents everywhere since most if not all of us see our own kids in a different light. However my characterization of their behaviour was based upon putting them in contrast to other fans of the sport in those countries. Akin to comparing Raider Nation fans to those of other teams. Also i was referring to the parents of those players that end up playing in the lower non-competitive or pre-club/academy leagues. The most competitive leagues are going to have crazy fans and there will be no crazier fan than a youth parent.
My primary complaint is actually what SoCal Soccer Leagues markets/claims they sell vs what they actually provide. When i go to a restaurant and order a steak and they come back, turn of the lights and give me sludge i am not going to be ok with it. However, continuing with this analogy it seems a lot of people would argue that since I cant see the steak in the dark it shouldnt matter as that is what they have been doing for years and i should ok with or just not eat. That is exactly what SoCal Soccer League is doing. We pay for competitive play but instead they hide the scores, let any team sign up anywhere, move in to any bracket/flight they want and then SoCal Soccer League doesnt moderate the league to provide the competition.
You are absolutely correct with your last statement. If it tries to be everything it will fail. I am only saying it needs to do what it says it provides - competitive youth soccer league. Right now it is not doing what it claims to be at its very essence. SoCal Soccer League has nothing to do with the clubs / academies and their financial structure or success. The clubs / academies can register whatever level of player they want and as many as they want to but the League needs to then put safeguards in place to prevent or minimize at least the number of teams not ready for competitive play and undermine the integrity of the entire system.
RandomSoccerFan
GOLD
A more apt analogy would be that you've gone to a hot dog cart on the street corner, paid those prices - and are either feigning outrage or experiencing actual outrage that you weren't served foie gras on silver. And you're now loudly wondering why that hot dog cart can't provide the same service as the Michelin starred restaurant.
You are misunderstanding what you are paying for. You are misunderstanding why the particular league has chosen to downplay winning/losing/scoring as the primary objective for the youngers. Your expectations are so far from reality of both what exists today for U8 where you now live and what is possible during your stint as team manager for an apparently mis-bracketed team, that you're on a path leading to years of disappointment before either getting your kid into the IMG academy, or them ultimately choosing trumpet, modern dance, or basketball instead of soccer.