Is club soccer a waste of time/money for youngers (under 10 yo)?

paytoplay said:
Agree with this.

And the original question: if “club soccer is really necessary or even the best route for developmental purposes at the younger ages?”

Club is necessary for one reason: that’s where the players are. Not in rec. Not playing (free) pick up ball at the local rec center or loosely organized on the streets and beaches. The players, resources, and time is all locked up in the Pay to Play Club System. And the club is the gatekeeper—no pay, no play. The clubs have hijacked the youth sport in USA.
You can argue what value the clubs bring to developing our youth players, but my opinion is that clubs are a parasite. It’s the players individually, their interaction with each other, and mom and dad’s money buying private training and access that develop the player. It’s unfortunate. There are better systems out there, but this is our hell.
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Good argument. All soccer players (who really "can" and "want" to play) join club systems, thus we have no other options.
I do not see a subsidized, competitive, organized youth sport can exist in this country. If football/basketball/baseball cannot do it, then it is almost impossible for soccer to lead the way.
 
jojon said:
I see that a lot of parents on this forum is so fixated on college admission. From that perspective, I can see your point. However, I think majority of parents are just trying to maximize their child's potential, whatever it is.
It is very likely that even if soccer does not exist in college sport, soccer clubs would still exist.
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We know what would happen because we have a model: Europe. In Europe colleges offer the bare minimum by way of amenities (since the state often pays for a large chunk of the tuition, the state insists on the colleges being streamlined for costs). European universities have sports teams, but they are general intramural level competition and done just for fun (not tied into the academic system or admissions). In Europe, there are general 3 levels of soccer play: the academies which are ruthless in their tracking (and once you are off the academic track, its very difficult to get back on) and develop professional soccer players; a small pay to play system which consists largely of players either cut off the academy track (and trying to get back on) or players trying to make their way onto the academy track; and everyone else plays rec (which, unlike the old AYSO, is tiered in multiple levels).

So yes, if college soccer did not exist, it is likely soccer clubs would exist but like in Europe, the entire operation would be smaller (similar to what we had in the 1970s when only the really exceptional kids would play club soccer). The problem with "maximize their childs potential" is that once there is a distortion in the system, it impacts everyone, whether they are aiming for college admissions or merely to "maximize their child's potential". Because once some people take off on intensive specialization, to "maximize potential" you'll have to play the game to keep up, even if the end goal isn't college (which in the end as they get older for a ton of kids turns out just not to be worth it, leading to the drop off in numbers the closer you get to senior year of high school).
 
I thought this thread was done but didn't realize it came back to life. I'm sure others have chimed in already but:

jojon said:
1) Are there really big skill gaps between Flights? or is it more about team organization/strategy/aggressiveness?
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Others may disagree with me but I think there's a massive gap between flights. Flight 3 I'd say is just above recreational. My kid's team is a decent (but clearly not the best) flight 1 team and they played a couple of flight 2 teams recently and it was 15-1 and 13-2 or something like that.

A typical flight 1 team is a mix of big fast athletic kids + smaller kids who are really good with the ball vs their peers.

jojon said:
2) I think all of these teams belong to Socal, maybe coast soccer league or other leagues have better level definition?
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CSL used to have some excellent teams and maybe they still do but a lot of the CSL teams have recently moved over to SoCal League. SoCal League is far from perfect but in terms of organization, competition, and structure, I don't think there's really an alternative in LA/OC/SD area.

jojon said:
3) Also confused with the jargon of some coaches/clubs saying about path to higher level like ECNL, MLSnext, Discovery. How many level are there? 8?
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I wouldn't worry about that too much if first year in club. But basically for girls if you want to play in the highest level of competition, you want to be in ECNL and for boys it's MLSNext. Up for debate and knowing US Soccer structure, this could change by the time I finish typing.

jojon said:
Cost wise, I did my math and in the past already spent about $1200 annually for soccer activities, the clubs have been offering $1800-$2400 annual fee (including referee fee and 2 tournaments according to the contract). I think additional $100/month is not bad considering that YMCA after school charge me $500/month for staying at school 2-6pm with no "real" activities.
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I think $3000 is a good estimate for an annual cost of club at your 11 yo. If you want to be safe, estimate $3500 in your head + possibly hotel/travel if there are out of town tournaments.

jojon said:
No aspirations to be pro or getting scholarship but I do think joining competition at an appropriate level of one's skill always beneficial to children's general education.
I used to play youth soccer in another country, another time but cannot relate with this environment at all, totally overwhelmed.
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I bet the other country did it better :p
On behalf of all Americans, I apologize for our youth soccer structure.
And yes I agree, I think playing the appropriate level is beneficial to kids not just soccer or sports wise but mentally.
Good luck and have fun!
 
Jar!23 said:
This parent’s opinion is that size doesn’t and shouldn’t matter and was pressing me to explain more. Of course, he has a bigger kid. I’m thinking sure, easy for you to say. Your kid doesn’t have someone at least 5-7 inches taller and 50 pounds heavier going after him. He did concede that the top teams seem to be filled with bigger kids and size can mean more attention from coaches and being tracked earlier.
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lol of course size matters for youth.
We aren't talking about prime Barca where Xavi Messi Iniesta carved up defenses like a Thanksgiving turkey.
For youth and especially pre-puberty, size plays a HUGE role.
You're just able to win so many more 50/50 balls.
 
jojon said:
Why Can't USSOCCER just approve a league for each tier per geographic region? If private investor wants to create separate league/tournament then it is fine but at least there is one "approved/sanctioned" league like Division 1,2,3 in pro soccer.
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One of mysteries of life.

But as someone great once said, the answer to most pressing questions in life are usually "MONEY".
 
Jamisfoes said:
I disagree. Strikers are the most athletic kids. They can play any position and be successful.
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I could get along with the first part that they're athletic. Hard disagree with the 2nd part though that they can play any position.
This isn't even possible at the highest pro levels. Benzema wouldn't be able to play a creative midfielder.

And certainly isn't the case at the youth level. It's magnitudes worse if the athletic striker currently depends on size and speed and is told to play center mid and receive the ball and turn and dribble and distribute the ball.

[Edit to say: I'm not saying a talented athletic kid couldn't play any position... I'm sure he or she could if they put in the work since they're already bigger, faster, more athletic vs their peers... But I'm saying if a kid is dominating as a forward because of his physical prowess and drop him into other positions where that's not highlighted as much as the striker position, he might not be as successful]
 
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Grace T. said:
We know what would happen because we have a model: Europe. In Europe colleges offer the bare minimum by way of amenities (since the state often pays for a large chunk of the tuition, the state insists on the colleges being streamlined for costs). European universities have sports teams, but they are general intramural level competition and done just for fun (not tied into the academic system or admissions). In Europe, there are general 3 levels of soccer play: the academies which are ruthless in their tracking (and once you are off the academic track, its very difficult to get back on) and develop professional soccer players; a small pay to play system which consists largely of players either cut off the academy track (and trying to get back on) or players trying to make their way onto the academy track; and everyone else plays rec (which, unlike the old AYSO, is tiered in multiple levels).

So yes, if college soccer did not exist, it is likely soccer clubs would exist but like in Europe, the entire operation would be smaller (similar to what we had in the 1970s when only the really exceptional kids would play club soccer). The problem with "maximize their childs potential" is that once there is a distortion in the system, it impacts everyone, whether they are aiming for college admissions or merely to "maximize their child's potential". Because once some people take off on intensive specialization, to "maximize potential" you'll have to play the game to keep up, even if the end goal isn't college (which in the end as they get older for a ton of kids turns out just not to be worth it, leading to the drop off in numbers the closer you get to senior year of high school).
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Right on. Tiered AYSO, this is what we need. Aside from elite athletes, this is what most players (and parents) want. The organization is powerful enough to do it. Hopefully they will do it one day.
 
jojon said:
Right on. Tiered AYSO, this is what we need. Aside from elite athletes, this is what most players (and parents) want. The organization is powerful enough to do it. Hopefully they will do it one day.
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They tried. The first step is they got the handicapable kids their own league, VIP so those kids could play too. They also have All Stars, Extras and United for kids that want a longer and more advanced system. I personally love that AYSO made the effort to get tiered and we loved the Extras program. The issue, though, with United is that AYSO felt it couldn't launch it's own club league to compete with the other club leagues, so AYSO United Teams play club ball with the other teams in club leagues (and do very well in league play because they have a large pool of athletes from which to pick). The good of that is they can offer a club experience that is generally more affordable than other clubs. But while AYSO has made an effort to really get volunteer and daddy coaches a good education (and their educational materials are beyond fantastic), the educational materials don't always overcome a culture which is more obsessed with winning than developing soccer skills....the teams I've had experience with have a distinct little league experience and my son's worst soccer experience was with an AYSO United coach (see above). The issue right now is that AYSO United (because it doesn't have an MLS/ENCL pathway) is cut off from the highest levels of soccer (which are migrating on the boys end to MLS/ENCL on the highest pathway, and EA for the secondary). AYSO United was one of the driving forces in some areas behind the new Elite 64, but until they have a true integrated tier experience (from MLS Next to VIP) it will be difficult. And the only way to do that is if they surrender some of their authority to the other US Soccer entities (which they haven't been willing to do because jobs, turf, and philosophy are at stake). The everyone plays philosophy is also just a plain philosophical block to a truly tiered system (in Spain for example rec has 8 tiers).
 
jojon said:
I see that a lot of parents on this forum is so fixated on college admission. From that perspective, I can see your point. However, I think majority of parents are just trying to maximize their child's potential, whatever it is.
It is very likely that even if soccer does not exist in college sport, soccer clubs would still exist.
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Is college admission competition among parents the reason we have corrupt pay to play soccer? Does it explain the gatekeeping and hijacking by the clubs? I don’t know.
But I have never had a conversation about soccer with my kid that was about using soccer to get into college. I think she plays soccer because she’s competitive, good at it, makes her feel good. And every step of the way, from the playground to rec soccer to club to flight 1, was always her wanting to play with and against good players. Watching heroes like Alex Morgan or Messi on tv compete and succeed is a bigger draw. We’ve not watched any college games.
When the kid’s team was not on par with her, she wanted to accept the challenge and put in the hard work, and move up to a more competitive team. The kid was trying to set goals and realize potential to the utmost. If we had to pay, we did. We could see she was giving 100%.
I see a lot of top flight teams practicing, doing drills not invented by the club, doing rondo not invented by the club, scrimmaging! Scrimmaging above all else. The actual games are 90 minutes of players competing against other players, there’s no club coach in there sweating with them, no club coach tearing their acl or getting carried off the field. All the hard work is being done by these kids. Tell me again: what does a DOC do? Ten years into this and I’m still not sure.
 
I wonder what the attrition rate for big clubs is compared to AYSO/other rec programs. Just kids who drop out of the sport, not moving clubs. In the club where I am at now, they make it clear they have a large pool of youngers with the expectation that many will drop leaving the club with the smaller pool of competitive players.
 
paytoplay said:
Watching heroes like Alex Morgan or Messi on tv compete and succeed is a bigger draw.
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Well, that's the other distortion I didn't hit on (blind spot because I have a boy). It's the "my kid can go pro" or the "my kid can play on the USWNT" distortion. There's a ton of kids (and parents) who have deluded themselves (not saying it's you or your kid) that they can go pro. It's more prevalent in the girl's side of things (because on the boy's if you aren't playing in Europe or at a minimum at an MLS Academy or a really small group of other teams, it's very clear that it is not happening), because there's also a safety net (girl scholarships being more plentiful than boys, it can be rationalized, well maybe she'll get a scholarship out of it). As the kids get older and closer to senior year of high school, more realize they can't be Alex Morgan and there are other activities (including dating) which begin to grab their attention....it's the same as wanting to be a fireman (you eventually grow out of the fantasy) or astronaut growing up (unless you go to one of the academies and then specialize in aviation, it's unlikely you'll be in the space program as part of the command path).

The reason you need a DOC is because you need someone to administer the mess. They got to deal with everything from hiring coaches, to making sure those coaches have those licenses and trainings, to complaints from parents the team is losing too much, to more serious complaints like sexual harassment. They may or may not do a good job, but as the old expression goes, you get what you pay for. Europe has academies which are in the business of developing and then selling professional players which is how they fund their system. Their rec programs are managed by a combination of volunteer and paid staff, but the equivalent of the DOC is usually one of the few paid positions.
 
crush said:
Thanks for being honest Doc. I can read through the tea leaves. We need good Docs and because you were honest, it makes you a good Doc. Do you forbid posting or warn parents about the forum? I was told by four Docs in Socal that posting is not allowed and they knew my original screen name. Do you support TMs snitching on parents for posting who were told not to?
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yes. we ban any child that has a parent constantly on an online forum talking about youth soccer.
 
paytoplayisgood said:
yes. we ban any child that has a parent constantly on an online forum talking about youth soccer.
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The forum is the parents way to Yelp for each other. I had a Doc tell me only through him and other Docs can one be introduced to the game after club. I said no way and I was wrong. Gatekeeper has a fee and its expensive. Stop doing this Doc or at least tell the others.
 
Socal-Soccer-Dad said:
This is it 100% for the youngers in the youth level.

Let's not crown any 9 yo strikers in SoCal League as the next Harry Kane :p
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:) (fair enough -- but I was thinking U11/U12 for the more advanced stuff).

Really depends on the coaching. I've seen some coaches do some really amazing work tactically/cognitively with younger players. Playing directly (without knowing possession) and placing bigger, faster, stronger kids on a team is the easy way out. It takes a lot of work to do more than that and generally you have to sacrifice results to do so. A proper club/coach will focus on development, not results, for the youngers. These coaches aren't paid enough in my book.

Twitter has some really great content in this regard. Check out Michael Carroll's tweets: https://twitter.com/TexasCoachMike. He's an example of a coach that can bring out the best in younger players (mentally and physically), at least when looking at his video clips. It's really great to see.
 
crush said:
The forum is the parents way to Yelp for each other. I had a Doc tell me only through him and other Docs can one be introduced to the game after club. I said no way and I was wrong. Gatekeeper has a fee and its expensive. Stop doing this Doc or at least tell the others.
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take some time off the computer. You talk like you've never interacted with real people before. I mean you literally respond within an hour which shows how you are in front of a screen all day long
 
crush said:
The forum is the parents way to Yelp for each other. I had a Doc tell me only through him and other Docs can one be introduced to the game after club. I said no way and I was wrong. Gatekeeper has a fee and its expensive. Stop doing this Doc or at least tell the others.
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now you are trying to pretend like you aren't glued to your computer. Your online again shocker ;)
 
paytoplayisgood said:
take some time off the computer. You talk like you've never interacted with real people before. I mean you literally respond within an hour which shows how you are in front of a screen all day long
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I get a "Bing" on my special smart phone. Every time I get a PM or a post about me or directed at me my smart phone lights up. I have a side hustle you no nothing about. Most of my action is with PMs. You have no idea. I can do five things all at once too so just relax. You should be at practice over seeing your coaches and not posting here, moo. Are you sure you're Doc of a GA Club? If that is a lie? Socal GA Doc? The GA would not appreciate someone being a poser. You sound like a control freak. Telling your players, "hey girls, if any of your parents spend too much time online , especially on the online socal soccer forum and they post within one hour of a post, then I will kick you off my team. If that happens, you will never get to play soccer again unless you tell your old man to "STFU." Why would you do that and be so afraid of a parent posting on soccer forum? Honest question coach? My dd advice to the underclassman at her High School is epic, "Have fun, It's not that serious." Doc, you need to worry about your GA Club and not engage a crazy parent here. 3 more days and I am out of here and flying away for good.
 
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