Vaccine

[Desert Hound]

you mean “someone who us impervious to information they don’t like”.

I see you have summed up your position on things perfectly. IE despite evidence to the contrary you still want masks, distancing, etc.

Though slowly but surely there are some cracks in your opinion as reality keeps setting in.

Are you willing to admit that indoor bars and restaurants increase aerosol respiratory disease transmission?

Any place people congregate will be a transmission point. Homes being the number 1 area where transmission occurs.

In no sane world would we be shutting stuff down for 20 months or even a few months. It wouldn't make a difference.

You have this myopic view that restaurants/bars are the reason the virus spreads. Completely overlooking the fact that people have to work in countless places where the virus will spread. Grocery stores, factories, construction, etc etc. Ignoring that most people have to go in to work, and pretending that a bar or restaurant is the real cause is fantasy on your part.

Complete fantasy.

Doing stuff outside like you repeatedly advise? Another fantasy. People are not going to other people's houses and hanging in the front yard to be safe.

People have to work. That involves being with other people for long hours. People are social creatures. They are going to go out and hang out with friends.

You seem to think if we can waive away economics (we have to work) and waive away what humans naturally do, THEN we can stop the virus.


For most of us it is pretty easy to see reality. And because of that it was pretty easy very early on to know that your solutions wouldn't work.

My bet is you still pretend it isn’t true.

Wrong again. I just knew that people would always act certain ways. You looking at your models wished they would act in ways not in our nature. You live/lived in fantasy land. Your models don't work in the real world.

 

[Hüsker Dü]

Dem governor declares COVID-19 emergency ‘over,’ says it’s ‘their own darn fault’ if unvaccinated get sick

Colorado Gov. Jared Polis, a Democrat, told Colorado Public Radio on Friday that he won’t be implementing another statewide mask mandate in response to the spread of the COVID-19 omicron variant.

news.yahoo.com

Colorado Gov. Jared Polis, a Democrat, declared in a new interview that the COVID-19 emergency is "over" and that he won’t be implementing another statewide mask mandate in response to the spread of the omicron variant, explaining that if people aren’t vaccinated at this point it’s their "own darn fault" if they get sick.

"The emergency is over," he said. "You know, public health [officials] don’t get to tell people what to wear; that's just not their job. Public health [officials] would say to always wear a mask because it decreases flu and decreases [other airborne illnesses]. But that's not something that you require; you don't tell people what to wear. You don't tell people to wear a jacket when they go out in winter and force them to [wear it]. If they get frostbite, it's their own darn fault.

"Those who get sick, it's almost entirely their own darn fault," he continued. "I don't want to say that nobody [will get the virus if they’re] vaccinated, but it's very rare. Just to put it in perspective, of the about 1400 people hospitalized, less than 200 (or 16 percent) are vaccinated. And many of them are older or have other conditions. Eighty-four percent of the people in our hospitals are unvaccinated, and they absolutely had every chance to get vaccinated."

I buy into that. As he says if you are too stupid to take care of yourself it’s your own darn fault. That of course is at the state level. I still feel private businesses have the right to make their own rules as it pertains to the “too stupid” amongst us.

 

[Hüsker Dü]

Imagine this econonmy after 20 months of no bars/restaurants. I get your fear of them but they aren't the boogy man you make them out to be.

Airflow or lack thereof is the culprit.

 

[watfly]

I buy into that. As he says if you are too stupid to take care of yourself it’s your own darn fault. That of course is at the state level. I still feel private businesses have the right to make their own rules as it pertains to the “too stupid” amongst us.

In other words, people should be able to make their own medical choices and be accountable for those choices and not play the victim if something happens to them. You should be responsible for your own health choices and not put that burden on others.

 

[Hüsker Dü]

In other words, people should be able to make their own medical choices and be accountable for those choices and not play the victim if something happens to them. You should be responsible for your own health choices and not put that burden on others.

Yes, the government has tried to a wits end to inform people of the precautions and risks. It should be mostly out of their hands now and left to individuals to decide what they think is best. Individuals from the donut shop to the mall to school boards, etc. If you are too stupid or arrogant to comply with the wishes of others you deserve to be outcasts. And no demanding others take the same risks with their health and the health of those around them is not how proper members of society conduct themselves. That is not freedom of choice that is just dumb.

 

[kickingandscreaming]

In other words, people should be able to make their own medical choices and be accountable for those choices and not play the victim if something happens to them. You should be responsible for your own health choices and not put that burden on others.

I liked this quote. It's a bit too "self-responsibility" focused for the paternalistic left of CA but it does show the general trend is continuing to move away from mandates.

"The emergency is over," he said. "You know, public health [officials] don’t get to tell people what to wear; that's just not their job. Public health [officials] would say to always wear a mask because it decreases flu and decreases [other airborne illnesses]. But that's not something that you require; you don't tell people what to wear. You don't tell people to wear a jacket when they go out in winter and force them to [wear it]. If they get frostbite, it's their own darn fault.

 

[kickingandscreaming]

JUST IN - PM Johnson says the first UK death has been recorded "with" the Omicron variant. No further details, yet.

OMG - a single death in an entire country ... Lockdown the entire world NOW !!!

Yeah, I saw that as well. Johnson said it's already over 40% of the cases and will be over half by tomorrow - yet they just had the first death "attributed" to the variant. I believe there's a reason to be optimistic that the variant is significantly less deadly than prior versions. For one, there are multiple reports of milder symptoms meaning the true number of cases may be significantly underreported. Also, if there was any hint that the variant was at least as bad as prior variants, we'd have seen headlines already about the coming deaths. It is a bit tricky with vaccinations and prior infections to get a good handle on it but it's been around long enough to have a decent idea of where things are going and no one is willing to even suggest that it may be as bad or worse.

First confirmed death from Omicron variant in UK

The UK has confirmed its first death from the Omicron coronavirus variant as scientists race to determine how dangerous it is. Follow here for the latest news.

www.cnn.com

 

[what-happened]

Airflow or lack thereof is the culprit.

In other words you don't own a business that relies on in person patronage?

 

[what-happened]

Yes, the government has tried to a wits end to inform people of the precautions and risks. It should be mostly out of their hands now and left to individuals to decide what they think is best. Individuals from the donut shop to the mall to school boards, etc. If you are too stupid or arrogant to comply with the wishes of others you deserve to be outcasts. And no demanding others take the same risks with their health and the health of those around them is not how proper members of society conduct themselves. That is not freedom of choice that is just dumb.

Say again.

 

[dad4]

Imagine this econonmy after 20 months of no bars/restaurants. I get your fear of them but they aren't the boogy man you make them out to be.

Yeah, it would be tough. Not only would we have a smaller economic base, but we’d also still have a few hundred thousand more elderly people to care for.

I am not saying it was only bars and restaurants. It was anywhere people gather together indoors. And it was worse for any place with more people, more talking, longer time, less distance, fewer masks, or poor ventilation. Bars just happen to hit every one of those risk factors.

 

[dad4]

In other words you don't own a business that relies on in person patronage?

A conscious decision to choose ten million service jobs over 750,000 deaths from covid is at least a thinking response that acknowledges both sides of the equation.

That is much better than saying “No, no. The outbreak has nothing to do with bars, restaurants, casinos, stadiums, travel, or private parties. I can do whatever I want with no consequences for anyone.“

 

[kickingandscreaming]

That’s why that response puzzled we as well. Seems the response was simply a reaction to what the poster thought they thought you would think as opposed to what you actually posted.

 

[Grace T.]

A conscious decision to choose ten million service jobs over 750,000 deaths from covid is at least a thinking response that acknowledges both sides of the equation.

That is much better than saying “No, no. The outbreak has nothing to do with bars, restaurants, casinos, stadiums, travel, or private parties. I can do whatever I want with no consequences for anyone.“

Now your just bending your own math for partisan rhetoric. Closing the bars and restaurants doesn't save 750,000 lives. We can argue whether it saves 10,000 or 100,000 but that's not the cost benefit analysis on the table. People are still working at the pharmacies, as plumbers and electricians, in factories, in construction sites, for takeout, on farms and meat processing plants, in police fire and the military and still passing the virus there. If you are going to call for a 'thinking response that acknowledges both sides of the equation" at least make an attempt to be accurate about the numbers.

 

[dad4]

Now your just bending your own math for partisan rhetoric. Closing the bars and restaurants doesn't save 750,000 lives. We can argue whether it saves 10,000 or 100,000 but that's not the cost benefit analysis on the table. People are still working at the pharmacies, as plumbers and electricians, in factories, in construction sites, for takeout, on farms and meat processing plants, in police fire and the military and still passing the virus there. If you are going to call for a 'thinking response that acknowledges both sides of the equation" at least make an attempt to be accurate about the numbers.

I wasn’t aware that China, Japan, Korea, Australia, and New Zealand stopped all farming, ceased all construction, closed all their factories, and disbanded the military for the last 20 months. They steps they took were far milder than that.

Other than a few industries like meat packing, the real barrier wasn’t work. It was adult recreation. Are we capable of living without our bars and casinos for 15 months? Sadly, the answer was no. We lasted less than 3 months before we decided it was time to loot Target.

 

[Grace T.]

I wasn’t aware that China, Japan, Korea, Australia, and New Zealand stopped all farming, ceased all construction, closed all their factories, and disbanded the military for the last 20 months. They steps they took were far milder than that.

Other than a few industries like meat packing, the real barrier wasn’t work. It was adult recreation. Are we capable of living without our bars and casinos for 15 months? Sadly, the answer was no. We lasted less than 3 months before we decided it was time to loot Target.

and there we are....the admission you've danced around from the beginning and never wanted to say....your true solution is the authoritarians. And again, with the exception of China on that list, they've all had outbreaks go out of control which they weren't able to contain, despite the draconian efforts. The fact that China is even on your list tells us EVERYTHING we need to know and EVERYTHING we've suspected about you, let alone australia and New Zealand.

it's also funny how it's gone from "are we capable of living without our bars and casinos for a month' to "are we capable of living without our bars and casinos for 15 months" [where's the 15 months coming from anyway...it's going on 2 years now....presumably maybe you are just shutting them in the winter in the north]

 

[dad4]

and there we are....the admission you've danced around from the beginning and never wanted to say....your true solution is the authoritarians. And again, with the exception of China on that list, they've all had outbreaks go out of control which they weren't able to contain, despite the draconian efforts. The fact that China is even on your list tells us EVERYTHING we need to know and EVERYTHING we've suspected about you, let alone australia and New Zealand.

it's also funny how it's gone from "are we capable of living without our bars and casinos for a month' to "are we capable of living without our bars and casinos for 15 months" [where's the 15 months coming from anyway...it's going on 2 years now....presumably maybe you are just shutting them in the winter in the north]

Yeah, yeah. Authoritarian ad-hominem. Don’t forget to call me preacher, and insult my reading comprehension.

15 months is the time gap from March 2020 to June 2021, when vaccines became widely available for adults. The whole thing should have been over in the US around July 2021. Vaccines can handle delta, and omicron is beginning to sound like a non-issue for the vaccinated and previously infected.

As it is, we’re now just waiting for delta to make its way through the remaining uninfected unvaccinated people. Eventually, almost all of them will be vaccinated, recovered, or - if very unlucky - dead.

 

[what-happened]

Yeah, it would be tough. Not only would we have a smaller economic base, but we’d also still have a few hundred thousand more elderly people to care for.

I am not saying it was only bars and restaurants. It was anywhere people gather together indoors. And it was worse for any place with more people, more talking, longer time, less distance, fewer masks, or poor ventilation. Bars just happen to hit every one of those risk factors.

Yes of course, 100% isolation would have saved some lives. That approach would have shut most human to human contact: grocery stores, hardware stores, distribution centers (which I'm sure you leverage and continue to leverage on a weekly basis).

The overused "virus is going to virus" statement is unfortunately the only constant. It's proven itself to be the ony constant since this whole thing began. Lockdowns are not going to work, they were never going to work. Human nature won't allow it. Some will comply, most will not. Time isn't/wasn't on our side. Rapid vaccine development didn't stand in the way of increasing deaths, the numbers this year speak to that. It's too bad society was promised something that was nearly impossible to deliver on. Pharma has a way of convincing government that their biased, greedy ideas will solve problems. Remember when you were told how the vaccines would bring everything back to normal? July 4th BBQs in backyards with friends and families. They were lying through their teeth, fully knowing vaccines were mediocore at best.

 

[what-happened]

As it is, we’re now just waiting for delta to make its way through the remaining uninfected unvaccinated people. Eventually, almost all of them will be vaccinated, recovered, or - if very unlucky - dead.

This doesn't even make sense. Upticks in vaccinted deaths and hospitalizations are happening everywhere. Your next statement is likely that this is now a pandemic of the unvaccinated. It was a silly statement a few months ago, and it remains a silly statement.

 

[Grace T.]

Yeah, yeah. Authoritarian ad-hominem. Don’t forget to call me preacher, and insult my reading comprehension.

15 months is the time gap from March 2020 to June 2021, when vaccines became widely available for adults. The whole thing should have been over in the US around July 2021. Vaccines can handle delta, and omicron is beginning to sound like a non-issue for the vaccinated and previously infected.

As it is, we’re now just waiting for delta to make its way through the remaining uninfected unvaccinated people. Eventually, almost all of them will be vaccinated, recovered, or - if very unlucky - dead.

a. Espola's already established those aren't ad-hominem. They aren't attacking your character, only your argument (i.e., your list) that you prefer authoritarian solutions and that you've finally come clear about it.
b. Even if the US had matched vaccination rates as in Ireland, Israel, Singapore, Gilbraltar, Iceland or even Germany it wouldn't be over as long as we are concerned about cases and the current round of European lockdowns prove that. It's just wishful "if only" thinking on your part, The issue isn't the US vaccination rate....it's the blue check response to cases.
c. At least we agree it should have been over July 2021. It's clear we don't agree for the reasons.

 

[espola]

a. Espola's already established those aren't ad-hominem. They aren't attacking your character, only your argument (i.e., your list) that you prefer authoritarian solutions and that you've finally come clear about it.
b. Even if the US had matched vaccination rates as in Ireland, Israel, Singapore, Gilbraltar, Iceland or even Germany it wouldn't be over as long as we are concerned about cases and the current round of European lockdowns prove that. It's just wishful "if only" thinking on your part, The issue isn't the US vaccination rate....it's the blue check response to cases.
c. At least we agree it should have been over July 2021. It's clear we don't agree for the reasons.

" EVERYTHING we need to know and EVERYTHING we've suspected about you"

 

[Hüsker Dü]

In other words you don't own a business that relies on in person patronage?

Indoors?
Outdoors?
Patio?
Or is this just about selfishness?