Say bye-bye-bye to Girls and Boys DA

MSK357 said:
Nobody is telling old people to come out of their hole. They can continue to lock themselves in. The sick with preexisting conditions can lock themselves in as well. Someone needs to generate the taxes that pay for the stimulus the scared need to survive. We can even deliver them food and drop off a few wipes so they can sanitize their care package. it doesn't take bravery to do this.
Click to expand...

Re-opening the economy means a lot more old people and some others will die; that is the choice you make whether you want or accept it or not. A lot of old people cannot “lock themselves in a hole”, as you say. A lot of old people don’t have the financial ability or practical means to have others drop everything they need at their door. Many of them need convalescent assistance. Many will need to go to the hospital for other reasons, and that’s the last place you want to be right now. Many of them will fo back to work also, even if it is not advisable.

Just accept that you have weighed the importance of re-opening the economy against the impact it will have on old people (plus some others) and decided that the costs of killing more people is worth the benefit to the economy. Anything else is just denial to make yourself feel better for how you landed in the cost/benefit analysis.
 
dad4 said:
We could try to copy South Korea. Whatever they did seemed to work.

Masks, phone tracking, limit trips outside the house, large fines for unauthorized gatherings. All of it.

Better than limping along like we are now.
Click to expand...

It is far too late for that.
 
EOTL said:
Re-opening the economy means a lot more old people and some others will die; that is the choice you make whether you want or accept it or not. A lot of old people cannot “lock themselves in a hole”, as you say. A lot of old people don’t have the financial ability or practical means to have others drop everything they need at their door. Many of them need convalescent assistance. Many will need to go to the hospital for other reasons, and that’s the last place you want to be right now. Many of them will fo back to work also, even if it is not advisable.

Just accept that you have weighed the importance of re-opening the economy against the impact it will have on old people (plus some others) and decided that the costs of killing more people is worth the benefit to the economy. Anything else is just denial to make yourself feel better for how you landed in the cost/benefit analysis.
Click to expand...
First off, stop lying. we are literally on lockdown right now. If old people aren't listening to the order now, then they are already putting themselves at risk. by locking down the country, people are already in a financial liability with the unemployment rate growing as we speak. You talk about old people needing convalescent assistance, who do you think will be giving that assistance? Emergency rooms were empty because people were too scared to come in, forgoing much needed care. No wonder people started dying but if they had a cough they called it COVID. No test required, just as assumption. If anybody is killing the elderly its people like you that think the whole country needs to be locked down. Elective surgery was put on hold, that includes a lot of elderly people that need that care. Protect the elderly and sick is what I have been saying the whole time. Let everyone else work, serve, generate income so that they can financially care for their loved ones who cant. If they don't have someone to look after them, then the government can come in, but without people working to generate taxes we will eventually run out of money to print.
 
MSK357 said:
First off, stop lying. we are literally on lockdown right now. If old people aren't listening to the order now, then they are already putting themselves at risk. by locking down the country, people are already in a financial liability with the unemployment rate growing as we speak. You talk about old people needing convalescent assistance, who do you think will be giving that assistance? Emergency rooms were empty because people were too scared to come in, forgoing much needed care. No wonder people started dying but if they had a cough they called it COVID. No test required, just as assumption. If anybody is killing the elderly its people like you that think the whole country needs to be locked down. Elective surgery was put on hold, that includes a lot of elderly people that need that care. Protect the elderly and sick is what I have been saying the whole time. Let everyone else work, serve, generate income so that they can financially care for their loved ones who cant. If they don't have someone to look after them, then the government can come in, but without people working to generate taxes we will eventually run out of money to print.
Click to expand...

I see seniors at the market everyday and out and about. they dont seem worried. lets open it up
 
MSK357 said:
First off, stop lying. we are literally on lockdown right now. If old people aren't listening to the order now, then they are already putting themselves at risk. by locking down the country, people are already in a financial liability with the unemployment rate growing as we speak. You talk about old people needing convalescent assistance, who do you think will be giving that assistance? Emergency rooms were empty because people were too scared to come in, forgoing much needed care. No wonder people started dying but if they had a cough they called it COVID. No test required, just as assumption. If anybody is killing the elderly its people like you that think the whole country needs to be locked down. Elective surgery was put on hold, that includes a lot of elderly people that need that care. Protect the elderly and sick is what I have been saying the whole time. Let everyone else work, serve, generate income so that they can financially care for their loved ones who cant. If they don't have someone to look after them, then the government can come in, but without people working to generate taxes we will eventually run out of money to print.
Click to expand...

It is quite the moral dilemma, eh? No one wants to accept the fact that they support doing something that will directly contribute to people dying, but that is the reality. Trying to pin responsibility on old people for dying when the reality is many of them will die only because the economy reopened too soon in many places is a pretty obvious example of victim blaming.

You don’t need to argue with me anymore about whether the risk of “running out of money to print” justifies killing more people. You decided that it does.
 
Jose has returned said:
they track their citizens no thanks ill take my chances
Click to expand...

Technically, you’ll take chances with other people’s lives, since you are almost certainly a low risk of dying from it. You have decided that your privacy and that of others is more important than the lives of many old people and some others who get coronavirus.
 
EOTL said:
It is quite the moral dilemma, eh? No one wants to accept the fact that they support doing something that will directly contribute to people dying, but that is the reality. Trying to pin responsibility on old people for dying when the reality is many of them will die only because the economy reopened too soon in many places is a pretty obvious example of victim blaming.

You don’t need to argue with me anymore about whether the risk of “running out of money to print” justifies killing more people. You decided that it does.
Click to expand...
Dude, are you even reading what I write? I literally said old people and sick people can stay quarantined. Healthy young people should be free to work IF they want. There are plenty of people willing to drop off supplies for those that are too at risk to go out. I'm sure you would be at the top of that list. So my method, would not only protect old and sick people, but we would also be generating income and taxes to support a stimulus check if needed. How is that trading old peoples lives for opening up the country? Just because the country opens up doesn't mean old people have to come out. If old people are already out and about then they are already at risk. we can still maintain 6 feet, no additional risk.
 
MSK357 said:
Nobody is telling old people to come out of their hole. They can continue to lock themselves in. The sick with preexisting conditions can lock themselves in as well. Someone needs to generate the taxes that pay for the stimulus the scared need to survive. We can even deliver them food and drop off a few wipes so they can sanitize their care package. it doesn't take bravery to do this.
Click to expand...
BINGO.

Nobody is forcing anyone to leave their house, etc if they are in the high risk group.
 
MSK357 said:
Dude, are you even reading what I write? I literally said old people and sick people can stay quarantined. Healthy young people should be free to work IF they want. There are plenty of people willing to drop off supplies for those that are too at risk to go out. I'm sure you would be at the top of that list. So my method, would not only protect old and sick people, but we would also be generating income and taxes to support a stimulus check if needed. How is that trading old peoples lives for opening up the country?
Click to expand...

I have already said that many old people can’t just “stay quarantined”, and explained why. Even the White House can’t keep it out.

You are denying the reality that what you want will lead to a lot more dead people. You don’t want to acknowledge the inevitable result of what you want because it is too bitter a pill to swallow. I suspect you are pro-life, because the only way to reconcile that with reopening the economy right now is to deny that what you want will kill anyone. A lot of pro-lifers are doing that. You’re in good company.
 
MSK357 said:
and no lockdown, why do people always leave that out? I have a few friends in korea, they said the clubs were still open, and I'm not talking soccer.
Click to expand...
Jose has returned said:
they track their citizens no thanks ill take my chances
Click to expand...
Two reasons it won't work is because Korea population is way smaller than the US and the US and Korea are very different culturally. Americans are so against wearing masks while in Korea before covid they all had masks and wore them. Plus, Americans are so against allowing government intervention as stated by Jose. I mean we are the only country to protest and ignore all social distancing protocols that the rest of the world is following (Orange County), even though we have examples (Italy and NY) of what happens to health systems if it spreads too fast. We do need to open up eventually and we will but I think people are just getting impatient and it is understandable. Just because something works in another country does not mean it will work here.
 
EOTL said:
Just accept that you have weighed the importance of re-opening the economy against the impact it will have on old people (plus some others) and decided that the costs of killing more people is worth the benefit to the economy.
Click to expand...
The government does this all the time.

We have drafted millions and sent them off to war as one example to in theory benefit the 90% who didn't go off to fight.
 
In simple terms :
If we don't open up the economy soon , tens of millions will be impacted in the near future when we have :

a major economic depression.
more unemployed
more people going into debt
more people losing their homes
more people having trouble buying food from no income
more scarcity of food available from lack of production and distribution
More people who have nothing to do
more people going into depression
more people turning to drugs and alcohol and suicide resulting in more deaths and mental health problems
more people turning to crime , resulting in more deaths
more people protecting what they have , resulting in more deaths
riots breaking out , resulting in more deaths
government stepping in to protect us all with temporary authoritarian tactics , resulting in more deaths and less freedom
government making their authoritarian tactics permanent because they know whats best for us , resulting in more deaths and less freedom.

you cannot eliminate risk in life
you cannot just consider the short term consequences of your actions relating to death
you have to also consider the long term consequences of your actions relating to death

By waiting too long to open the economy we may have many more deaths from the long term consequences then deaths from the short term.
And we may be risking our freedom for ourselves, our children , our grand children and generations to come .

I personally am in a high risk category for the virus.
Regardless of what others choose to do.
I can always choose to shelter in home and do social distancing , if I feel that is the best for me,
I don't think we should take away the freedom of others to provide for their family , live a free
life and perhaps put their lives and their freedom at risk in the future because of our short term thinking now .


We have fought wars for our freedom .
History says that there are always people willing to take your freedom away , usually for your own good or just because they can.
There was a quote during the revolutionary war that said " give me liberty or give me death ".
Freedom is important.
 
EOTL said:
I have already said that many old people can’t just “stay quarantined”, and explained why. Even the White House can’t keep it out.

You are denying the reality that what you want will lead to a lot more dead people. You don’t want to acknowledge the inevitable result of what you want because it is too bitter a pill to swallow. I suspect you are pro-life, because the only way to reconcile that with reopening the economy right now is to deny that what you want will kill anyone. A lot of pro-lifers are doing that. You’re in good company.
Click to expand...
WTF? you don't make any sense. You need to be a little more clear on why old people cant stay quarantined. explain. Is it because they have to work to live? Well there are lot of people that need to work to live that can't right now. Is it because they need assistance? Well who will be giving that assistance? people that need to go out and work obviously, whether that's through healthcare of financial assistance. why cant you see that we can do both. South korea did both. They quarantined those that were at risk and kept the country open. Why is that so hard to see? your explanation has no logic. We literally have a blueprint to beat this without ruining the economy in south korea.
 
SoccerGuru said:
Two reasons it won't work is because Korea population is way smaller than the US and the US and Korea are very different culturally. Americans are so against wearing masks while in Korea before covid they all had masks and wore them. Plus, Americans are so against allowing government intervention as stated by Jose. I mean we are the only country to protest and ignore all social distancing protocols that the rest of the world is following (Orange County), even though we have examples (Italy and NY) of what happens to health systems if it spreads too fast. We do need to open up eventually and we will but I think people are just getting impatient and it is understandable. Just because something works in another country does not mean it will work here.
Click to expand...
Fair assessment, except there was a shortage of masks in south korea, the donated millions of them to china before it got to their country. But yes, culturally they are different, and they have experience in dealing with pandemics. but you are basically saying lets not try what works because we haven't done it before. I say lets try what works because it works. the less than 1% fatality rate based on antibody tests makes me comfortable doing it as well. Those at risk can stay inside and quarantine themselves just like south korea did.
 
Desert Hound said:
The government does this all the time.

We have drafted millions and sent them off to war as one example to in theory benefit the 90% who didn't go off to fight.
Click to expand...

That is exactly what I am saying. Just like when the government decides that going to war to protect freedom, or oil, or whatever justifies sacrificing lives, you have decided that people also need to be sacrificed for the sake of the economy. Why is it so hard to accept the reality of that decision?
 
dawson said:
In simple terms :
If we don't open up the economy soon , tens of millions will be impacted in the near future when we have :

a major economic depression.
more unemployed
more people going into debt
more people losing their homes
more people having trouble buying food from no income
more scarcity of food available from lack of production and distribution
More people who have nothing to do
more people going into depression
more people turning to drugs and alcohol and suicide resulting in more deaths and mental health problems
more people turning to crime , resulting in more deaths
more people protecting what they have , resulting in more deaths
riots breaking out , resulting in more deaths
government stepping in to protect us all with temporary authoritarian tactics , resulting in more deaths and less freedom
government making their authoritarian tactics permanent because they know whats best for us , resulting in more deaths and less freedom.

you cannot eliminate risk in life
you cannot just consider the short term consequences of your actions relating to death
you have to also consider the long term consequences of your actions relating to death

By waiting too long to open the economy we may have many more deaths from the long term consequences then deaths from the short term.
And we may be risking our freedom for ourselves, our children , our grand children and generations to come .

I personally am in a high risk category for the virus.
Regardless of what others choose to do.
I can always choose to shelter in home and do social distancing , if I feel that is the best for me,
I don't think we should take away the freedom of others to provide for their family , live a free
life and perhaps put their lives and their freedom at risk in the future because of our short term thinking now .


We have fought wars for our freedom .
History says that there are always people willing to take your freedom away , usually for your own good or just because they can.
There was a quote during the revolutionary war that said " give me liberty or give me death ".
Freedom is important.
Click to expand...

Dude, I hear everything you are saying. You have decided that the benefit of reopening the economy is worth sacrificing the lives of a lot of mostly old people. I’m not even questioning your cost/benefit analysis,just the fact that you are refusing to acknowledge that you are making one that means people will die. You are sayjng many old people need to die for the sake of your wallet and others.
 
EOTL said:
That is exactly what I am saying. Just like when the government decides that going to war to protect freedom, or oil, or whatever justifies sacrificing lives, you have decided that people also need to be sacrificed for the sake of the economy. Why is it so hard to accept the reality of that decision?
Click to expand...
why is it so hard to accept you don't have to sacrifice lives for the economy? Protect the old and sick, the young and healthy can work. All while maintaining the same social distancing. That's what they did in south korea. That has nothing to do with testing or masks or any other excuse people try to use on why korea was different.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top