Just a Parent
SILVER ELITE
Why?
It appears that there are some professional referees who agree with you.
I got exposed to this early, in a BU9 game in 2000 - a defender in his PA who blocked a shot with his foot, the ball rolled up the side of his leg and over his arm held close to his body. The referee awarded a PK that tied the game.
Clattenburg article:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/f...eree-RIGHT-call-awarding-Man-Utd-penalty.html
"Sorry, but this should NOT be a penalty... it was only given because of recent UEFA instruction
- It was the correct decision to award Manchester United a last-minute penalty
- The referee applied the laws as UEFA see fit after Presnel Kimpembe's handball
- In the Premier League over the years this decision would never have been given
- Personally, this should never be a penalty as it was not a deliberate handball"
coachrefparent
GOLD
Coaches are already designing drills to practice aiming the ball at the defender's arms instead of crossing or shooting it. Try it 10 times, you'll get a PK 2 or 3...The beautiful (PK) game.
Surfref
PREMIER
What coaches? I hope your post was just full of sarcasm.
Surfref
PREMIER
Handling was called differently 19 years ago.
Surfref
PREMIER
The referee may have got the call wrong or right, I was not there to see it. The LOTG book does not include detailed interpretation of the LOTG. Those are taught to referees in the continuing training they should be receiving. The training provides the referees what the interpretation of “deliberately” means in the game of soccer.
I actually do not see handling called incorrectly very often. I do agree with you about offside restart position.
coachrefparent
GOLD
Yes I was responding to the post that said they hoped the rules changed so that any ball that hits a player's arm or hand is handling.
Just a Parent
SILVER ELITE
I thought they stopped doing this in 1970 . . .
Clearly what you are saying is very accurate, I don't dispute that. However, it is also clear that what is being taught is more than just interpretation but is a broadening of the law beyond what is deliberate (see previous videos I posted). There seems to be a lot of "legislation from the bench". That is part of my frustration as a layman. To me the LOTG are pretty clear as to what is handling. "Hand to ball and position of the hand/arm isn't necessarily relevant". So either 1) you reach out and touch the ball or 2) you reach out your hand/arm to put it in the way of the ball or 3) leave it in the way of the ball if you have the time/distance to get it out of the way. Those 3 scenarios are deliberate and our clearly indicated by the LOTG. I believe, as does at least one prominent ref (which I posted), that the whole concept of "unnatural position" can be misleading and is misapplied. It is impossible to play effective soccer without your arms away from your body or to jump to reach maximum height without bringing your hands at least above your shoulders. (Not to mention the fact that everyone has different body mechanics) Yet I hear all the time as justification for calling handling that "the arm/hand was away from the body".
I'd be less frustrated if these "interpretations" were authoritatively published and distributed by whatever legislative is broadening the law. Say for example, USSF's position is that if you slide tackle and the ball hits your arm it is handling even though its not-deliberate because you "took a risk" a risk by slide tackling. However, as a player or a coach you would never know this unless you stumbled across the video on Youtube. The LOTG of the game and its interpretations should be available to everyone not just referees. (USSF did a much better job of this when they use to issue Advice to Referees).
I'm curious in regards to the PSG/Manu game. UEFA issued guidance that they want referees to penalise handballs when the arm is out (regardless of whether it was deliberate). I wonder if UEFA informed anyone other than the referees?
Surfref
PREMIER
I agree with you. I am curious about what guidance use Non-pro refs will receive from USSF and Cal South.
Definitelynotanotherref
SILVER ELITE
I've heard different refs I greatly respect have completely opposite opinions on this one. Don't worry, they are in the process of changing the rules for handling in 2020. (or maybe worry...)
Worry. New rules are more confusing. For example, over the weekend had a game where a player fell in a challenge to a ball, used his arm to support himself (which the new rules say is not a foul) but the player's hand strikes the ball when blocking the shot and it's clear the player has made himself a bigger barrier intentionally in the mad struggle to block the shot (which is a foul after all). ^-\
/-^ And there's no offense if the ball touches a hand of another player who is near? Woo boy!In the youth game, there's no way the I'm-going-to-do-the-minimum training club refs or the volunteer AYSO refs are ever going to be able to translate this accurately. At the higher levels, I think it will provide some clarity because deliberate examples are outlined, but on the youth level it's going to be even worse than what we have. But they only care about the pro game, so that's why we get what we get.
http://www.espn.com/soccer/blog-fif...ifab-reveals-new-laws-of-the-game-for-2019-20
Worry. New rules are more confusing. For example, over the weekend had a game where a player fell in a challenge to a ball, used his arm to support himself (which the new rules say is not a foul) but the player's hand strikes the ball when blocking the shot and it's clear the player has made himself a bigger barrier intentionally in the mad struggle to block the shot (which is a foul after all). ^-\
In the youth game, there's no way the I'm-going-to-do-the-minimum training club refs or the volunteer AYSO refs are ever going to be able to translate this accurately. At the higher levels, I think it will provide some clarity because deliberate examples are outlined, but on the youth level it's going to be even worse than what we have. But they only care about the pro game, so that's why we get what we get.
http://www.espn.com/soccer/blog-fif...ifab-reveals-new-laws-of-the-game-for-2019-20
p.s. most non-keepers 14 and under are going to extend their arm when falling. They just do...it's instinct....is that "unnaturally bigger?"
Worry. New rules are more confusing. For example, over the weekend had a game where a player fell in a challenge to a ball, used his arm to support himself (which the new rules say is not a foul) but the player's hand strikes the ball when blocking the shot and it's clear the player has made himself a bigger barrier intentionally in the mad struggle to block the shot (which is a foul after all). ^-\
In the youth game, there's no way the I'm-going-to-do-the-minimum training club refs or the volunteer AYSO refs are ever going to be able to translate this accurately. At the higher levels, I think it will provide some clarity because deliberate examples are outlined, but on the youth level it's going to be even worse than what we have. But they only care about the pro game, so that's why we get what we get.
http://www.espn.com/soccer/blog-fif...ifab-reveals-new-laws-of-the-game-for-2019-20
Interesting, well first off I give credit to IFAB for trying to incorporate most of the non-deliberate interpretations that are being taught to refs (i.e. now disclosing them to the general public). I can appreciate that they are trying to expand the definition to include a "fairness" principle. I still don't care for the term "unnatural", maybe semantics but I prefer a term like "unusually extended" or even "unnaturally extended". I'm a little concerned for how "the hands above the shoulders" and the "taking a risk" will impact the defenders ability to head and slide tackle inside the box. I do like some of the definitions of what is "not usually a free kick". Whether I like the laws or not, at least they have given full disclosure as to what the rules are, many of which have already been in practice for some time. To me they seem more clarifying, although they certainly still leave a lot of room for subjectivity.
You imply that AYSO referees, because they are volunteers, are not well trained. You should look into that before making such statements.Worry. New rules are more confusing. For example, over the weekend had a game where a player fell in a challenge to a ball, used his arm to support himself (which the new rules say is not a foul) but the player's hand strikes the ball when blocking the shot and it's clear the player has made himself a bigger barrier intentionally in the mad struggle to block the shot (which is a foul after all). ^-\
In the youth game, there's no way the I'm-going-to-do-the-minimum training club refs or the volunteer AYSO refs are ever going to be able to translate this accurately. At the higher levels, I think it will provide some clarity because deliberate examples are outlined, but on the youth level it's going to be even worse than what we have. But they only care about the pro game, so that's why we get what we get.
http://www.espn.com/soccer/blog-fif...ifab-reveals-new-laws-of-the-game-for-2019-20
Eagle33
PREMIER
Trained well or not in AYSO doesn't mean anything unless you doing competitive games for more than few years.
Soccer Dad & Ref
SILVER ELITE
Many are not. They can now take an online course (which is great, and all coaches and parents should take it), and then a 4-6 hour in-person course to referee U10. The purpose of the Regional Referee course is to make sure they understand the basics and can get the game going. Handling's details are not covered, and not expected to be called correctly.
If a volunteer in AYSO wants to referee higher ages, they are supposed to then take the Intermediate course. Fouls are really talked about a lot more in that course.
Surfref
PREMIER
I know several really good AYSO referees that do not work club games. They only work AYSO and high school. They could easily work club games but most have told me they don’t want to deal with the crazy parents and out of control sidelines.
Soccer Dad & Ref
SILVER ELITE
Agreed, although they likely took at least the Intermediate course, if not the Advanced or National. Those courses really help AYSO referees become better, especially with the required assessments. Whether the assessors are good or not, it is feedback from a neutral party, which is hard to come by.