"HANDBALL"

Also, I read somewhere that the handball rule was under discussion anyways for the next season...that they had decided that a score off a handball (whether deliberate or not) will be disallowed. Given that and UEFA's announcement it would start calling handballs tighter, shouldn't they just make the rules change (given the already controversial changes about no attacking players in the wall and only one foot of the goalkeeper on the line in a penalty)?

timbuck said:
I’d love to hear the banter on the sidelines if that was a youth match.
Would the referee have been threatened on the walk to the car?
Would parents shout “karma” at the other parents for some foul that wasn’t called earlier in the game?
Would the coach blame the ref?
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Making the rule change would actually make the youth game harder in this case. The AR (if there is one) would be watching the line and have no way of seeing whether it struck the back or arm and the CR would be out of position to see if it hit the back or arm. The sideline, though, would surely see it.
 
IMO its not handling. There was no deliberate act to touch the ball. The arm was rotating away from the ball so no way its "hand to ball". Also there is no law that says that arm can't be away from body in penalty box, in fact just the opposite "the position of the hand does not necessarily mean that there is an offence". Regardless, if you watch the continuation of the defenders movement he was trying to bring his arm inside his body and away from the ball. (The still photo makes it look way worse than it was) Unlucky, yes. Handling, no ... in my opinion.

I'm sure there will be some rationalization about how the arm was in an unnatural position. There is no rule that says a ball hitting a hand in an unnatural position is a foul. The guidance for unnatural position is as a factor to consider (among others) as a indication that it may be deliberate, but not as a foul in and of itself. Hence why there is the guidance "the position of the hand does not necessarily mean that there is an offence".
 
watfly said:
IMO its not handling. There was no deliberate act to touch the ball. The arm was rotating away from the ball so no way its "hand to ball". Also there is no law that says that arm can't be away from body in penalty box, in fact just the opposite "the position of the hand does not necessarily mean that there is an offence". Regardless, if you watch the continuation of the defenders movement he was trying to bring his arm inside his body and away from the ball. (The still photo makes it look way worse than it was) Unlucky, yes. Handling, no ... in my opinion.

I'm sure there will be some rationalization about how the arm was in an unnatural position. There is no rule that says a ball hitting a hand in an unnatural position is a foul. The guidance for unnatural position is as a factor to consider (among others) as a indication that it may be deliberate, but not as a foul in and of itself. Hence why there is the guidance "the position of the hand does not necessarily mean that there is an offence".
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Listening to Sirius FC, they stated that Clattenburg said that UEFA issued guidance after the MC - Schalke game that a ball hitting an elbow away from the body is a foul.
 
watfly said:
Listening to Sirius FC, they stated that Clattenburg said that UEFA issued guidance after the MC - Schalke game that a ball hitting an elbow away from the body is a foul.
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Yeah, I don't fault the ref since it seems they were instructed to call it this way, but that begs the question why then if they are messing around with the handball rules anyway don't they take the step of really revising them so any contact to the arm away from the body is a handball. Neymar might have a point that if they are going to change the rules, they should change them in the rulebook so everyone is on the same page (though I think he said it more colorfully)
 
Can someone explain the following to me (extracted from the ESPN link below):

http://www.espn.com/soccer/paris-sa...ymar-blasts-var-after-losscalls-it-a-disgrace

"Coach Thomas Tuchel reaffirmed his support for VAR but questioned whether or not the shot that struck Kimpembe was on target.
"I am for VAR, but it feels like the shot was not on target and if it was not on target there is no penalty," the German said. "Penalty or no penalty, there needs to be an explanation."

Why does it matter if the shot is on target or not? If it's judged as a handball in the box, isn't a penalty shot automatically given?
 
watfly said:
I'm sure there will be some rationalization about how the arm was in an unnatural position. There is no rule that says a ball hitting a hand in an unnatural position is a foul. The guidance for unnatural position is as a factor to consider (among others) as a indication that it may be deliberate, but not as a foul in and of itself. Hence why there is the guidance "the position of the hand does not necessarily mean that there is an offence".
Click to expand...

My daughter got called for handling in the box last year in a tournament on a cross that ricocheted off a thigh into her arm and ref gave other team a PK. I yelled out that it was not deliberate and AR politely told me her arm was not in an athletic position and that the 2016 FIFA rewrite of the law stated such... so I politely pulled out my 2018 FIFA laws and asked him to show me where it was in the most current release of the laws of the game... because there was no such statement, only that the ball had to be deliberately handled.

The two most missed calls in my opinion are the "offside" restart position (part of the problem being that ARs tend to raise the flag way too early) and handling.
 
I think that if a ball hits the hand or arm in any way - then it should be a handling infraction.
Way too much subjectivity in the way it’s written right now.
 
TangoCity said:
My daughter got called for handling in the box last year in a tournament on a cross that ricocheted off a thigh into her arm and ref gave other team a PK. I yelled out that it was not deliberate and AR politely told me her arm was not in an athletic position and that the 2016 FIFA rewrite of the law stated such... so I politely pulled out my 2018 FIFA laws and asked him to show me where it was in the most current release of the laws of the game... because there was no such statement, only that the ball had to be deliberately handled.

The two most missed calls in my opinion are the "offside" restart position (part of the problem being that ARs tend to raise the flag way too early) and handling.
Click to expand...

I got exposed to this early, in a BU9 game in 2000 - a defender in his PA who blocked a shot with his foot, the ball rolled up the side of his leg and over his arm held close to his body. The referee awarded a PK that tied the game.
 
watfly said:
Listening to Sirius FC, they stated that Clattenburg said that UEFA issued guidance after the MC - Schalke game that a ball hitting an elbow away from the body is a foul.
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Clattenburg article:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/f...eree-RIGHT-call-awarding-Man-Utd-penalty.html

"Sorry, but this should NOT be a penalty... it was only given because of recent UEFA instruction
  • It was the correct decision to award Manchester United a last-minute penalty
  • The referee applied the laws as UEFA see fit after Presnel Kimpembe's handball
  • In the Premier League over the years this decision would never have been given
  • Personally, this should never be a penalty as it was not a deliberate handball"
 
timbuck said:
I think that if a ball hits the hand or arm in any way - then it should be a handling infraction.
Way too much subjectivity in the way it’s written right now.
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Coaches are already designing drills to practice aiming the ball at the defender's arms instead of crossing or shooting it. Try it 10 times, you'll get a PK 2 or 3...The beautiful (PK) game.
 
espola said:
I got exposed to this early, in a BU9 game in 2000 - a defender in his PA who blocked a shot with his foot, the ball rolled up the side of his leg and over his arm held close to his body. The referee awarded a PK that tied the game.
Click to expand...

Handling was called differently 19 years ago.
 
TangoCity said:
My daughter got called for handling in the box last year in a tournament on a cross that ricocheted off a thigh into her arm and ref gave other team a PK. I yelled out that it was not deliberate and AR politely told me her arm was not in an athletic position and that the 2016 FIFA rewrite of the law stated such... so I politely pulled out my 2018 FIFA laws and asked him to show me where it was in the most current release of the laws of the game... because there was no such statement, only that the ball had to be deliberately handled.

The two most missed calls in my opinion are the "offside" restart position (part of the problem being that ARs tend to raise the flag way too early) and handling.
Click to expand...

The referee may have got the call wrong or right, I was not there to see it. The LOTG book does not include detailed interpretation of the LOTG. Those are taught to referees in the continuing training they should be receiving. The training provides the referees what the interpretation of “deliberately” means in the game of soccer.

I actually do not see handling called incorrectly very often. I do agree with you about offside restart position.
 
Surfref said:
The referee may have got the call wrong or right, I was not there to see it. The LOTG book does not include detailed interpretation of the LOTG. Those are taught to referees in the continuing training they should be receiving. The training provides the referees what the interpretation of “deliberately” means in the game of soccer.
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Clearly what you are saying is very accurate, I don't dispute that. However, it is also clear that what is being taught is more than just interpretation but is a broadening of the law beyond what is deliberate (see previous videos I posted). There seems to be a lot of "legislation from the bench". That is part of my frustration as a layman. To me the LOTG are pretty clear as to what is handling. "Hand to ball and position of the hand/arm isn't necessarily relevant". So either 1) you reach out and touch the ball or 2) you reach out your hand/arm to put it in the way of the ball or 3) leave it in the way of the ball if you have the time/distance to get it out of the way. Those 3 scenarios are deliberate and our clearly indicated by the LOTG. I believe, as does at least one prominent ref (which I posted), that the whole concept of "unnatural position" can be misleading and is misapplied. It is impossible to play effective soccer without your arms away from your body or to jump to reach maximum height without bringing your hands at least above your shoulders. (Not to mention the fact that everyone has different body mechanics) Yet I hear all the time as justification for calling handling that "the arm/hand was away from the body".

I'd be less frustrated if these "interpretations" were authoritatively published and distributed by whatever legislative is broadening the law. Say for example, USSF's position is that if you slide tackle and the ball hits your arm it is handling even though its not-deliberate because you "took a risk" a risk by slide tackling. However, as a player or a coach you would never know this unless you stumbled across the video on Youtube. The LOTG of the game and its interpretations should be available to everyone not just referees. (USSF did a much better job of this when they use to issue Advice to Referees).

I'm curious in regards to the PSG/Manu game. UEFA issued guidance that they want referees to penalise handballs when the arm is out (regardless of whether it was deliberate). I wonder if UEFA informed anyone other than the referees?
 
watfly said:
Clearly what you are saying is very accurate, I don't dispute that. However, it is also clear that what is being taught is more than just interpretation but is a broadening of the law beyond what is deliberate (see previous videos I posted). There seems to be a lot of "legislation from the bench". That is part of my frustration as a layman. To me the LOTG are pretty clear as to what is handling. "Hand to ball and position of the hand/arm isn't necessarily relevant". So either 1) you reach out and touch the ball or 2) you reach out your hand/arm to put it in the way of the ball or 3) leave it in the way of the ball if you have the time/distance to get it out of the way. Those 3 scenarios are deliberate and our clearly indicated by the LOTG. I believe, as does at least one prominent ref (which I posted), that the whole concept of "unnatural position" can be misleading and is misapplied. It is impossible to play effective soccer without your arms away from your body or to jump to reach maximum height without bringing your hands at least above your shoulders. (Not to mention the fact that everyone has different body mechanics) Yet I hear all the time as justification for calling handling that "the arm/hand was away from the body".

I'd be less frustrated if these "interpretations" were authoritatively published and distributed by whatever legislative is broadening the law. Say for example, USSF's position is that if you slide tackle and the ball hits your arm it is handling even though its not-deliberate because you "took a risk" a risk by slide tackling. However, as a player or a coach you would never know this unless you stumbled across the video on Youtube. The LOTG of the game and its interpretations should be available to everyone not just referees. (USSF did a much better job of this when they use to issue Advice to Referees).

I'm curious in regards to the PSG/Manu game. UEFA issued guidance that they want referees to penalise handballs when the arm is out (regardless of whether it was deliberate). I wonder if UEFA informed anyone other than the referees?
Click to expand...

I agree with you. I am curious about what guidance use Non-pro refs will receive from USSF and Cal South.
 
Grace T. said:
Thoughts on the Paris v. Manchester United handball call? On the one hand, back was turned, not the hand, some say it wasn't intentional, and that late it was clear it would be a game deciding penalty. On the other hand, arm away from body in the penalty area. Does it matter if these are pros with greater body control v a U10 game...would you make the same call?

Click to expand...
I've heard different refs I greatly respect have completely opposite opinions on this one. Don't worry, they are in the process of changing the rules for handling in 2020. (or maybe worry...)
 
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