Definitelynotanotherref
SILVER ELITE
Let me try and clear up some common confusion on handling, even in this educated forum.
DELIBERATE is not the same as INTENTIONAL. Do not use the words interchangeably. I have seen several back and forth posts where two people use each word and no one is bothering to correct the other, it leads to talking past each other. It is very possible to unintentionally handle the ball but still deliberately handle the ball. Deliberate only refers to the motion of the arm. Do you deliberately place your arm in that position? The next question is then "Can you help it that you deliberately put your arm there?" The answer to that question is no in the case of natural position and close proximity. Trying to judge intention and mind read is impossible.
Next misconception: NATURAL POSITION. Everyone tries to use the dictionary definition here. "That was a natural position for the arm to be during a slide/jump". They are technically correct, but not soccer correct. You know how some defenders put their arms behind their back in the box? That is dictionary "unnatural position", and yet, when the ball still hits the hands behind the back, which it does sometimes, the referee does not and should not call it.
DELIBERATE is not the same as INTENTIONAL. Do not use the words interchangeably. I have seen several back and forth posts where two people use each word and no one is bothering to correct the other, it leads to talking past each other. It is very possible to unintentionally handle the ball but still deliberately handle the ball. Deliberate only refers to the motion of the arm. Do you deliberately place your arm in that position? The next question is then "Can you help it that you deliberately put your arm there?" The answer to that question is no in the case of natural position and close proximity. Trying to judge intention and mind read is impossible.
Next misconception: NATURAL POSITION. Everyone tries to use the dictionary definition here. "That was a natural position for the arm to be during a slide/jump". They are technically correct, but not soccer correct. You know how some defenders put their arms behind their back in the box? That is dictionary "unnatural position", and yet, when the ball still hits the hands behind the back, which it does sometimes, the referee does not and should not call it.
Nonsense.
Definitelynotanotherref
SILVER ELITE
Offside restart is supposed to be where the attacker was when he interfered with an opponent/gained an advantage. It used to be (3-4 years ago) wherever the 2nd to last defender was. In practice, I begrudgingly split the baby and pick a spot somewhere in between. That is one of those laws that just won't be applied until the entire referee association finally decides: "hey everyone, call it the way it is supposed to be. It is just too much of a headache to deal with the olders to get them to restart the kick in the proper location 25 yards back than where they think it should go just because every referee is calling it different.
Surfref
PREMIER
Use your whistle and voice and tell them where the restart is. Why would you “pick a spot somewhere in between” when you could easily move them to the correct spot. I have no problem getting players to restart in the correct location. If all referees would just follow the LOTG and guidance from USSF, then there would be no problems. The referees that I see not changing to the newer guidance are the 40 year old and older refs that have 10+ years of experience. Most coaches and older youth players know the changes and rarely question my calls. I have even seen numerous teams that have set offside plays to take advantage of the newer Law 11 guidance.
Definitelynotanotherref
SILVER ELITE
I will start trying it again in my games, my last experience with this was 2 years ago, I pointed to the spot where the IDFK should be, the defender gave me an exasperated look and took the kick from there ; but his teammate who was standing 15 yards away where he thought the offside restart should be taken received the pass with his hand to take the IDFK from the spot he thought the idfk should have been. I called handling going the other way. Ultimately I am not happy with how that situation turned out or how I handled it.
This is also something that would need to be stressed in the pregame because otherwise you would have your AR stand their (with his/her flag still up, ugh) 15 yards ahead of where the kick should go. A proper pregame is not always a possibility. There are so many obstacles to calling it correctly and I guess I have been choosing the "choose your battles" approach.
Surfref
PREMIER
I completely agree with you on the pregame talk. I always include a quick refresher on Law 11 and where the AR should be when they raise the flag. I also tell the AR to be patient and wait for active involvement or interference with play. Most ARs I have been working with lately have been good at getting the location of the call correct. The trouble I have had recently has been during high school games running the dual system. Some refs only work HS and AYSO/Rec games and are fully versed on the changes to Law 11, so there is inconsistencies in when and where we make the call. It clearly frustrates the players. Some guys either just want to keep on doing it the old way or just do not listen during the pre-game.
Definitelynotanotherref
SILVER ELITE
From what I witnessed as a standby at Rob field for the Albion Cup (U9-U12), I found all the refs that don't call handling properly, who don't do offside properly, etc. I still think you are pretty inaccurate about the # of refs that call the game correctly. All the good refs you work with were doing the U13-U14's, but the majority at Robb field were not up to parr. Hell, a 9v9 game ended with 3 kids punching the crap out of a goalie and parents running on to the field.
RedCard
GOLD
My son played in the Albion Cup also and it was .......interesting. He was in the USSDA 05 bracket and the referees/tournament personnel at USD got the game time duration wrong. Our 1st game was 30 minute halves and the 2nd game was 25 minute halves. We were confused but in looking at the rules, the 1st game should of been 25. Pretty bad when you screw that up.
And when we played the host Albion...let’s just say that was frustrating.
Surfref
PREMIER
(Sarcasm). Maybe the referee just added 5 minutes of additional time to each half for reasons outlined in Law 7. At least that would be my excuse.
The referees that I worked with (B/G 13-14) were both good and did a great job. We worked together very well as a team and only had problems with one spectator (got to watch the game from the parking lot) in in two of the game. The funny thing is we had Sunday afternoon games after the Chargers epic loss to the Pats and the two dads that got removed from the games were wearing either a Charger jersey or Charger hat.
I will just echo RedCard's comment that the reffing was interesting at the Albion Cup, at least for the 07 and 08 games I saw at Robb. We've had great refs for league DA this year and the Albion refs made me feel like I was in some "Twilight Zone". Of course, there were some parents that didn't help the situation.
Ok, after today I am starting to wonder if refs I work with just call handling because the ball hits someone's hand. After I tried explaining to a coach that it's not always that clear cut he got rude and had to caution him 
.
I always use the phrase ball to hand. It's not always hand to ball. First and foremost you have to look at it as a player purposely handling a ball. However these extremely educated coaches believe that just because the ball gets deflected by a hand that is two inches away from the thigh it should warrant a call for handling...Most of the time the ball bangs around off a players arm. Why punish a player that didn't do anything intentional?
If the hand is out there and the ball strikes it and puts the ball into their possession then that is a good time to call it. However, I see refs ditching protocol and calling it when a coach barks. Extremely difficult to enforce on a 2 man system. Let alone the angle issues that come into play . Nightmare.
As for the slide tackling that leads to a "hand ball." It depends on the situation, if a player makes a last ditch effort to slide and deflect a shot but it misses their legs and hits their arm, then it's handling, especially in the penalty area. Because the act of going to ground and having your arms in a certain position is deliberate. I find the nfhs interpretation of handling far superior to the USSF version.
.I always use the phrase ball to hand. It's not always hand to ball. First and foremost you have to look at it as a player purposely handling a ball. However these extremely educated coaches believe that just because the ball gets deflected by a hand that is two inches away from the thigh it should warrant a call for handling...Most of the time the ball bangs around off a players arm. Why punish a player that didn't do anything intentional?
If the hand is out there and the ball strikes it and puts the ball into their possession then that is a good time to call it. However, I see refs ditching protocol and calling it when a coach barks. Extremely difficult to enforce on a 2 man system. Let alone the angle issues that come into play . Nightmare.
As for the slide tackling that leads to a "hand ball." It depends on the situation, if a player makes a last ditch effort to slide and deflect a shot but it misses their legs and hits their arm, then it's handling, especially in the penalty area. Because the act of going to ground and having your arms in a certain position is deliberate. I find the nfhs interpretation of handling far superior to the USSF version.
Thoughts on the Paris v. Manchester United handball call? On the one hand, back was turned, not the hand, some say it wasn't intentional, and that late it was clear it would be a game deciding penalty. On the other hand, arm away from body in the penalty area. Does it matter if these are pros with greater body control v a U10 game...would you make the same call?
Also, I read somewhere that the handball rule was under discussion anyways for the next season...that they had decided that a score off a handball (whether deliberate or not) will be disallowed. Given that and UEFA's announcement it would start calling handballs tighter, shouldn't they just make the rules change (given the already controversial changes about no attacking players in the wall and only one foot of the goalkeeper on the line in a penalty)?
Making the rule change would actually make the youth game harder in this case. The AR (if there is one) would be watching the line and have no way of seeing whether it struck the back or arm and the CR would be out of position to see if it hit the back or arm. The sideline, though, would surely see it.
Making the rule change would actually make the youth game harder in this case. The AR (if there is one) would be watching the line and have no way of seeing whether it struck the back or arm and the CR would be out of position to see if it hit the back or arm. The sideline, though, would surely see it.
IMO its not handling. There was no deliberate act to touch the ball. The arm was rotating away from the ball so no way its "hand to ball". Also there is no law that says that arm can't be away from body in penalty box, in fact just the opposite "the position of the hand does not necessarily mean that there is an offence". Regardless, if you watch the continuation of the defenders movement he was trying to bring his arm inside his body and away from the ball. (The still photo makes it look way worse than it was) Unlucky, yes. Handling, no ... in my opinion.
I'm sure there will be some rationalization about how the arm was in an unnatural position. There is no rule that says a ball hitting a hand in an unnatural position is a foul. The guidance for unnatural position is as a factor to consider (among others) as a indication that it may be deliberate, but not as a foul in and of itself. Hence why there is the guidance "the position of the hand does not necessarily mean that there is an offence".
I'm sure there will be some rationalization about how the arm was in an unnatural position. There is no rule that says a ball hitting a hand in an unnatural position is a foul. The guidance for unnatural position is as a factor to consider (among others) as a indication that it may be deliberate, but not as a foul in and of itself. Hence why there is the guidance "the position of the hand does not necessarily mean that there is an offence".
Listening to Sirius FC, they stated that Clattenburg said that UEFA issued guidance after the MC - Schalke game that a ball hitting an elbow away from the body is a foul.
Yeah, I don't fault the ref since it seems they were instructed to call it this way, but that begs the question why then if they are messing around with the handball rules anyway don't they take the step of really revising them so any contact to the arm away from the body is a handball. Neymar might have a point that if they are going to change the rules, they should change them in the rulebook so everyone is on the same page (though I think he said it more colorfully)
Messi>CR7
GOLD
Can someone explain the following to me (extracted from the ESPN link below):
http://www.espn.com/soccer/paris-sa...ymar-blasts-var-after-losscalls-it-a-disgrace
"Coach Thomas Tuchel reaffirmed his support for VAR but questioned whether or not the shot that struck Kimpembe was on target.
"I am for VAR, but it feels like the shot was not on target and if it was not on target there is no penalty," the German said. "Penalty or no penalty, there needs to be an explanation."
Why does it matter if the shot is on target or not? If it's judged as a handball in the box, isn't a penalty shot automatically given?
http://www.espn.com/soccer/paris-sa...ymar-blasts-var-after-losscalls-it-a-disgrace
"Coach Thomas Tuchel reaffirmed his support for VAR but questioned whether or not the shot that struck Kimpembe was on target.
"I am for VAR, but it feels like the shot was not on target and if it was not on target there is no penalty," the German said. "Penalty or no penalty, there needs to be an explanation."
Why does it matter if the shot is on target or not? If it's judged as a handball in the box, isn't a penalty shot automatically given?
TangoCity
GOLD
My daughter got called for handling in the box last year in a tournament on a cross that ricocheted off a thigh into her arm and ref gave other team a PK. I yelled out that it was not deliberate and AR politely told me her arm was not in an athletic position and that the 2016 FIFA rewrite of the law stated such... so I politely pulled out my 2018 FIFA laws and asked him to show me where it was in the most current release of the laws of the game... because there was no such statement, only that the ball had to be deliberately handled.
The two most missed calls in my opinion are the "offside" restart position (part of the problem being that ARs tend to raise the flag way too early) and handling.