"HANDBALL"

[Definitelynotanotherref]

Parents, sure. But referees? Perhaps a few. But many? Where?

Those referees that you refer too are not the vast majority. They are the ones that do not attend the monthly training or even open the LOTG book to study. The vast majority of these refs tend to be lazy and do not know how to apply the LOTG. Any decent ref knows the criteria for Handling unlike the large number of parents that are constantly yelling "handball."

Maybe I am just being naive. But it feels like a vast majority of refs call the non deliberate, but advantageous, ball to hands as handling. Maybe the minority of refs that call it just stick out in my mind more. But it feels like that isnt the case.

The number of new referees that I try to explain handling to and they always seem either confused or desperate for clarification. Its like they hear something different every week. I remember being new. It took me like 2 years to finally peg down the proper handling criteria.

Furthermore You would think after a 100 games with a "majority" of refs calling it close to properly, you would think the parents and players would eventually get the picture that handball has to be deliberate. But they still yell all entitled-like whenever a ball brushes an arm as though every other ref has been calling it like that all season. Or maybe they just believe that every ref is just blind and if all 100 of them were blessed with the super parent vision then the ref would concur.

It feels like only the top 10% of refs call handling properly. (An assignor once told me that 10% of the ref pool does 50% of the games). And maybe since you are in that 10% you are surrounded by refs that know the rules. But I dont think its that common.

 

[watfly]

Maybe I am just being naive. But it feels like a vast majority of refs call the non deliberate, but advantageous, ball to hands as handling. Maybe the minority of refs that call it just stick out in my mind more. But it feels like that isn't the case.

I feel the same way, and in fact mentioned that earlier in this thread, but was given a yellow card for using the term "vast majority". I guess the question of whether handling is called "properly" is in the eye of beholder. When two professional refs as well regarded as Baharmast and Clattenburg have complete opposite opinions on what is handling in a very specific circumstance than how can we expect weekend warrior refs to know what the "proper" interpretation is? Even Baharmast in his USSF training video uses the concept of gaining a benefit as justification for calling handling on a non-deliberate handball.

 

[coachrefparent]

When two professional refs as well regarded as Baharmast and Clattenburg have complete opposite opinions on what is handling in a very specific circumstance than how can we expect weekend warrior refs to know what the "proper" interpretation is?

Referees of teenage competitive soccer matches should make zero mistakes, and study EPL referee training videos and guidance daily. If they call a touchline a sideline, or the area a box, or impeding obstruction, they must be fined $10,000, and suspended for 5 years.

 

[watfly]

Referees of teenage competitive soccer matches should make zero mistakes, and study EPL referee training videos and guidance daily. If they call a touchline a sideline, or the area a box, or impeding obstruction, they must be fined $10,000, and suspended for 5 years.

Wading through your hyperbole, if you think that I'm saying that refs should be judged more harshly you obviously skipped over my prior sentence. What I'm saying is refs should be given way more latitude because there is not even consensus among the referee community on what the "proper" interpretation is in certain limited circumstances. Bharmast/Clattenburg is an example of this as, as are the differing opinions from refs on this forum. I see a refs on this forum adamantly claim that their interpretation is correct over another ref's opinion, when in reality they both may have a good faith basis for their opinion and it's possible they're both "correct". If you ignore the drama and the name calling, I've found this forum to be very informative.

I'll I care about is that the ref...and the coach and the player, put in the effort. Mistakes happen, that's to be expected, but mistakes are less frequent when a good effort is put forward.

 

[coachrefparent]

Wading through your hyperbole, if you think that I'm saying that refs should be judged more harshly you obviously skipped over my prior sentence. What I'm saying is refs should be given way more latitude because there is not even consensus among the referee community on what the "proper" interpretation is in certain limited circumstances. Bharmast/Clattenburg is an example of this as, as are the differing opinions from refs on this forum. I see a refs on this forum adamantly claim that their interpretation is correct over another ref's opinion, when in reality they both may have a good faith basis for their opinion and it's possible they're both "correct". If you ignore the drama and the name calling, I've found this forum to be very informative.

I'll I care about is that the ref...and the coach and the player, put in the effort. Mistakes happen, that's to be expected, but mistakes are less frequent when a good effort is put forward.

Wading aside, I was agreeing with you: "how can we expect weekend warrior refs to know what the "proper" interpretation is?" And making fun of those that debate the minutiae of differing interpretations as fact, and that youth soccer referees should be measured by the standards of professionals at the highest levels (who themselves make copious mistakes.)

 

[watfly]

Wading aside, I was agreeing with you: "how can we expect weekend warrior refs to know what the "proper" interpretation.

My bad and my apologies.

 

[TangoCity]

Handling and offside restart location are the two laws I see consistently misapplied.

 

[Definitelynotanotherref]

Let me try and clear up some common confusion on handling, even in this educated forum.
DELIBERATE is not the same as INTENTIONAL. Do not use the words interchangeably. I have seen several back and forth posts where two people use each word and no one is bothering to correct the other, it leads to talking past each other. It is very possible to unintentionally handle the ball but still deliberately handle the ball. Deliberate only refers to the motion of the arm. Do you deliberately place your arm in that position? The next question is then "Can you help it that you deliberately put your arm there?" The answer to that question is no in the case of natural position and close proximity. Trying to judge intention and mind read is impossible.

Next misconception: NATURAL POSITION. Everyone tries to use the dictionary definition here. "That was a natural position for the arm to be during a slide/jump". They are technically correct, but not soccer correct. You know how some defenders put their arms behind their back in the box? That is dictionary "unnatural position", and yet, when the ball still hits the hands behind the back, which it does sometimes, the referee does not and should not call it.

 

[espola]

It is very possible to unintentionally handle the ball but still deliberately handle the ball.

Nonsense.

 

[Definitelynotanotherref]

Handling and offside restart location are the two laws I see consistently misapplied.

Offside restart is supposed to be where the attacker was when he interfered with an opponent/gained an advantage. It used to be (3-4 years ago) wherever the 2nd to last defender was. In practice, I begrudgingly split the baby and pick a spot somewhere in between. That is one of those laws that just won't be applied until the entire referee association finally decides: "hey everyone, call it the way it is supposed to be. It is just too much of a headache to deal with the olders to get them to restart the kick in the proper location 25 yards back than where they think it should go just because every referee is calling it different.

 

[Surfref]

Offside restart is supposed to be where the attacker was when he interfered with an opponent/gained an advantage. It used to be (3-4 years ago) wherever the 2nd to last defender was. In practice, I begrudgingly split the baby and pick a spot somewhere in between. That is one of those laws that just won't be applied until the entire referee association finally decides: "hey everyone, call it the way it is supposed to be. It is just too much of a headache to deal with the olders to get them to restart the kick in the proper location 25 yards back than where they think it should go just because every referee is calling it different.

Use your whistle and voice and tell them where the restart is. Why would you “pick a spot somewhere in between” when you could easily move them to the correct spot. I have no problem getting players to restart in the correct location. If all referees would just follow the LOTG and guidance from USSF, then there would be no problems. The referees that I see not changing to the newer guidance are the 40 year old and older refs that have 10+ years of experience. Most coaches and older youth players know the changes and rarely question my calls. I have even seen numerous teams that have set offside plays to take advantage of the newer Law 11 guidance.

 

[Definitelynotanotherref]

Use your whistle and voice and tell them where the restart is. Why would you “pick a spot somewhere in between” when you could easily move them to the correct spot. I have no problem getting players to restart in the correct location. If all referees would just follow the LOTG and guidance from USSF, then there would be no problems. The referees that I see not changing to the newer guidance are the 40 year old and older refs that have 10+ years of experience. Most coaches and older youth players know the changes and rarely question my calls. I have even seen numerous teams that have set offside plays to take advantage of the newer Law 11 guidance.

I will start trying it again in my games, my last experience with this was 2 years ago, I pointed to the spot where the IDFK should be, the defender gave me an exasperated look and took the kick from there ; but his teammate who was standing 15 yards away where he thought the offside restart should be taken received the pass with his hand to take the IDFK from the spot he thought the idfk should have been. I called handling going the other way. Ultimately I am not happy with how that situation turned out or how I handled it.

This is also something that would need to be stressed in the pregame because otherwise you would have your AR stand their (with his/her flag still up, ugh) 15 yards ahead of where the kick should go. A proper pregame is not always a possibility. There are so many obstacles to calling it correctly and I guess I have been choosing the "choose your battles" approach.

 

[Surfref]

I will start trying it again in my games, my last experience with this was 2 years ago, I pointed to the spot where the IDFK should be, the defender gave me an exasperated look and took the kick from there ; but his teammate who was standing 15 yards away where he thought the offside restart should be taken received the pass with his hand to take the IDFK from the spot he thought the idfk should have been. I called handling going the other way. Ultimately I am not happy with how that situation turned out or how I handled it.

This is also something that would need to be stressed in the pregame because otherwise you would have your AR stand their (with his/her flag still up, ugh) 15 yards ahead of where the kick should go. A proper pregame is not always a possibility. There are so many obstacles to calling it correctly and I guess I have been choosing the "choose your battles" approach.

I completely agree with you on the pregame talk. I always include a quick refresher on Law 11 and where the AR should be when they raise the flag. I also tell the AR to be patient and wait for active involvement or interference with play. Most ARs I have been working with lately have been good at getting the location of the call correct. The trouble I have had recently has been during high school games running the dual system. Some refs only work HS and AYSO/Rec games and are fully versed on the changes to Law 11, so there is inconsistencies in when and where we make the call. It clearly frustrates the players. Some guys either just want to keep on doing it the old way or just do not listen during the pre-game.

 

[Definitelynotanotherref]

I completely agree with you on the pregame talk. I always include a quick refresher on Law 11 and where the AR should be when they raise the flag. I also tell the AR to be patient and wait for active involvement or interference with play. Most ARs I have been working with lately have been good at getting the location of the call correct. The trouble I have had recently has been during high school games running the dual system. Some refs only work HS and AYSO/Rec games and are fully versed on the changes to Law 11, so there is inconsistencies in when and where we make the call. It clearly frustrates the players. Some guys either just want to keep on doing it the old way or just do not listen during the pre-game.

From what I witnessed as a standby at Rob field for the Albion Cup (U9-U12), I found all the refs that don't call handling properly, who don't do offside properly, etc. I still think you are pretty inaccurate about the # of refs that call the game correctly. All the good refs you work with were doing the U13-U14's, but the majority at Robb field were not up to parr. Hell, a 9v9 game ended with 3 kids punching the crap out of a goalie and parents running on to the field.

 

[RedCard]

From what I witnessed as a standby at Rob field for the Albion Cup (U9-U12), I found all the refs that don't call handling properly, who don't do offside properly, etc. I still think you are pretty inaccurate about the # of refs that call the game correctly. All the good refs you work with were doing the U13-U14's, but the majority at Robb field were not up to parr. Hell, a 9v9 game ended with 3 kids punching the crap out of a goalie and parents running on to the field.

My son played in the Albion Cup also and it was .......interesting. He was in the USSDA 05 bracket and the referees/tournament personnel at USD got the game time duration wrong. Our 1st game was 30 minute halves and the 2nd game was 25 minute halves. We were confused but in looking at the rules, the 1st game should of been 25. Pretty bad when you screw that up.
And when we played the host Albion...let’s just say that was frustrating.

 

[Surfref]

My son played in the Albion Cup also and it was .......interesting. He was in the USSDA 05 bracket and the referees/tournament personnel at USD got the game time duration wrong. Our 1st game was 30 minute halves and the 2nd game was 25 minute halves. We were confused but in looking at the rules, the 1st game should of been 25. Pretty bad when you screw that up.
And when we played the host Albion...let’s just say that was frustrating.

(Sarcasm). Maybe the referee just added 5 minutes of additional time to each half for reasons outlined in Law 7. At least that would be my excuse.

The referees that I worked with (B/G 13-14) were both good and did a great job. We worked together very well as a team and only had problems with one spectator (got to watch the game from the parking lot) in in two of the game. The funny thing is we had Sunday afternoon games after the Chargers epic loss to the Pats and the two dads that got removed from the games were wearing either a Charger jersey or Charger hat.

 

[watfly]

From what I witnessed as a standby at Rob field for the Albion Cup (U9-U12), I found all the refs that don't call handling properly, who don't do offside properly, etc. I still think you are pretty inaccurate about the # of refs that call the game correctly. All the good refs you work with were doing the U13-U14's, but the majority at Robb field were not up to parr. Hell, a 9v9 game ended with 3 kids punching the crap out of a goalie and parents running on to the field.

My son played in the Albion Cup also and it was .......interesting. He was in the USSDA 05 bracket and the referees/tournament personnel at USD got the game time duration wrong. Our 1st game was 30 minute halves and the 2nd game was 25 minute halves. We were confused but in looking at the rules, the 1st game should of been 25. Pretty bad when you screw that up.
And when we played the host Albion...let’s just say that was frustrating.

I will just echo RedCard's comment that the reffing was interesting at the Albion Cup, at least for the 07 and 08 games I saw at Robb. We've had great refs for league DA this year and the Albion refs made me feel like I was in some "Twilight Zone". Of course, there were some parents that didn't help the situation.

 

[Art]

Ok, after today I am starting to wonder if refs I work with just call handling because the ball hits someone's hand. After I tried explaining to a coach that it's not always that clear cut he got rude and had to caution him .

I always use the phrase ball to hand. It's not always hand to ball. First and foremost you have to look at it as a player purposely handling a ball. However these extremely educated coaches believe that just because the ball gets deflected by a hand that is two inches away from the thigh it should warrant a call for handling...Most of the time the ball bangs around off a players arm. Why punish a player that didn't do anything intentional?

If the hand is out there and the ball strikes it and puts the ball into their possession then that is a good time to call it. However, I see refs ditching protocol and calling it when a coach barks. Extremely difficult to enforce on a 2 man system. Let alone the angle issues that come into play . Nightmare.

As for the slide tackling that leads to a "hand ball." It depends on the situation, if a player makes a last ditch effort to slide and deflect a shot but it misses their legs and hits their arm, then it's handling, especially in the penalty area. Because the act of going to ground and having your arms in a certain position is deliberate. I find the nfhs interpretation of handling far superior to the USSF version.

 

[Grace T.]

Thoughts on the Paris v. Manchester United handball call? On the one hand, back was turned, not the hand, some say it wasn't intentional, and that late it was clear it would be a game deciding penalty. On the other hand, arm away from body in the penalty area. Does it matter if these are pros with greater body control v a U10 game...would you make the same call?

 

[timbuck]

I’d love to hear the banter on the sidelines if that was a youth match.
Would the referee have been threatened on the walk to the car?
Would parents shout “karma” at the other parents for some foul that wasn’t called earlier in the game?
Would the coach blame the ref?