SoCal Soccer Attitude Change

SCS Fan said:
Laced, I think you would make a great referee and I encourage you to take your passion on these issues one step further and get certified. I understand personal situations sometimes seem to not afford time to be a referee but once certified you can pick and choose when and where to do games. You might be surprised by the sense of self-accomplishment you get by properly calling a match and it's a great way to give back to the game. If you have a player in their teens you can go through the process together.
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Thank you for the kind words. If anything, I'd want to be a volunteer coach. I have great regrets I didn't do that when my kids played AYSO
 
Laced said:
How's parents' ignorance of the game relevant to abuse? Abuse is abuse regardless whether the parent knows the game or not. If it's abuse, refs have the authority to throw them out and that's that.

"How's that a foul?" or "Our call" are annoying and obnoxious but are not abusive. These are mistakes just like refs' bad calls, or mistakes about game lengths or reentry rules. Spectators in other sports boo refs, question their calls, but game goes on. There's no reason why soccer refs need bubble wraps any more than refs in other sports.
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Why should soccer refs copy other sports' refs?
 
wildcat66 said:
The implications that most parents are clueless always comes up. Can't speak for all teams, but many of the ref "abusers" that I know aren't the clueless ones. They are the former college players, current and former coaches and current and former refs. People who have been around the sport for a while. One of the most vocal parents from my daughters team is actually a current ref who has been doing for a while, not a clueless soccer mom.
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Why has this referee remained clueless after doing this "for a while" as you say? Is there no one who could offer him help?
 
Laced said:
Let me spell it out for you, as you seem to have trouble understanding what some of us are saying. I haven't seen a single person who advocates ref abuse. Most of refs' mistakes are understandable, even on simple things like game lengths or reentry, because they work games of different age groups. And because their breaks may not be long. Why then are some of parents' mistakes like "Handball!" so intolerable? When refs stop games because they can't handle things of that nature, they waste everyone's time. They waste time of those of uswho haven't said a single word. Most importantly, they stop the flow of the game for the kids for trivial stuff a normal person should be able to hand. Do you close the highway because of a fender bender? A whistle shouldn't give a ref an egg shell psyche.
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I find it hilarious that you blame the referee for enforcing competition rules by stopping the game and not the screaming maniac who caused the game to be stopped.
 
Jairzinho said:
Threads like this are proof this forum was better off being shut down. Develop thick skin or don't ref. Better yet, if you never played then don't bother becoming a ref. Yes I'm talking to YOU. We already have way too many uneducated, incompetent refs in this country. Most of them, like these big mouth parents who think their kid is Gods gift to the game, should just stay home. The game doesn't need YOU. Moreover, YOU (and your sense of entitlement) are the reason why this game can't evolve in this country.

Have a nice day!wicked1
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It's been a while since we saw this degree of delusion.
 
Just a Parent said:
I find it hilarious that you blame the referee for enforcing competition rules by stopping the game and not the screaming maniac who caused the game to be stopped.
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Competition rules gives referees the authority to remove abusive spectators. This is not in dispute. They don't give them the authority to stop the game at will just becaus they're annoyed.

The flow of the game is specifically mentioned in LOTG. There're no timeouts, no water breaks. The referees cannot reverse their decisions after restart, and are not to confer with each other constantly just to get calls right. Getting calls right is not important as the flow of the game. The rules are designed to keep any disruption of the game to the minimal. When a player appears injured, the referee only allows a very short period of time for him to be attended to, or he is removed from the field. There's no other sport where you're laying hurt on the ground, and the ref baiscally tells you to get your injured ass off the field, fast, so they can carry on.

When shouting doesn't rise to the level of abuser, those referees that stop games simply don't have any concept of "the flow of the game." Shouts of "Foul" or "Offside" are annoying but they don't justify a stoppage. Those sideline mistakes can be ignored just as referee mistakes. It's a referee's duty to maintain the flow of the game. When referees stop games to correct sideline comments that don't rise to the level of abuse, what they're doing is essentially the same as sideline misbehavior - overreaction to others mistakes.
 
Laced said:
Competition rules gives referees the authority to remove abusive spectators. This is not in dispute. They don't give them the authority to stop the game at will just becaus they're annoyed.

The flow of the game is specifically mentioned in LOTG. There're no timeouts, no water breaks. The referees cannot reverse their decisions after restart, and are not to confer with each other constantly just to get calls right. Getting calls right is not important as the flow of the game. The rules are designed to keep any disruption of the game to the minimal. When a player appears injured, the referee only allows a very short period of time for him to be attended to, or he is removed from the field. There's no other sport where you're laying hurt on the ground, and the ref baiscally tells you to get your injured ass off the field, fast, so they can carry on.

When shouting doesn't rise to the level of abuser, those referees that stop games simply don't have any concept of "the flow of the game." Shouts of "Foul" or "Offside" are annoying but they don't justify a stoppage. Those sideline mistakes can be ignored just as referee mistakes. It's a referee's duty to maintain the flow of the game. When referees stop games to correct sideline comments that don't rise to the level of abuse, what they're doing is essentially the same as sideline misbehavior - overreaction to others mistakes.
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Perhaps you better read the "Code of Conduct" you signed. And when referees are doing their jobs right they are constantly conferring. They don't need to stop the game to do that.
 
Just a Parent said:
Perhaps you better read the "Code of Conduct" you signed. And when referees are doing their jobs right they are constantly conferring. They don't need to stop the game to do that.
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I never signed any code of conduct, my exwife did.
So, if I attend my nephew's game does that mean I am clear to comment cause I never signed any paper work concerning him.
Been known to walk the dog at the local sports park and stopped to watch a game for a while....what code of conduct applies to me?
You refs are so sensitive, guess you were the class tattletales, " Ms Crabtree, little Johnny just called me a poo poo butt."
 
wildcat66 said:
I never signed any code of conduct, my exwife did.
So, if I attend my nephew's game does that mean I am clear to comment cause I never signed any paper work concerning him.
Been known to walk the dog at the local sports park and stopped to watch a game for a while....what code of conduct applies to me?
You refs are so sensitive, guess you were the class tattletales, " Ms Crabtree, little Johnny just called me a poo poo butt."
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It means your wife shouldn't complain when you're dismissed for acting maniacally.
 
wildcat66 said:
I never signed any code of conduct, my exwife did.
So, if I attend my nephew's game does that mean I am clear to comment cause I never signed any paper work concerning him.
Been known to walk the dog at the local sports park and stopped to watch a game for a while....what code of conduct applies to me?
You refs are so sensitive, guess you were the class tattletales, " Ms Crabtree, little Johnny just called me a poo poo butt."
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Wildcat66,

Here is how it works:
1. Clubs/Leagues rent the fields from cities or private parties. The fields during those rental times are subject to the rules and regulations of Cal South, the respective Clubs/Leagues, and the City/Private party.

a. In the case of a public park, the areas outside those areas rented and controlled by the Club/League remain subject to the rules of the park, but inside the area rented, guests (including "dog walkers") are subject to all the rules as noted above and may be removed by representatives of Cal South, the League (CSL, SCDSL, Presidio, etc.), the Club (Coach, Manager, etc.) or the Agent appointed by Cal South, the League or the Club also known as the Referee.

b. Most contracts/rental agreements provide that the "entire grass" area is rented, which means that the folks holding little Jenny's 4th birthday party near the playground are violating the Club/League's space when they set up their jumper on the corner of the grass field 70 feet from the soccer field.

2. Folks in the vicinity of the fields (or on the areas rented) are subject to the rules regardless of whether they signed a form or not because for that time being, they are guests on property controlled by another (in legal speak they are "Licensees").

3. With respect to dogs, most leagues have a "no dogs" allowed policy. So, if you are in a public park walking your dog, I recommend you watch the games from a distance because once you bring the dog within the areas rented/leased by the Club/League you are now subject to their rules and they can politely ask you to remove your dog from the area, stop being abusive, etc..
 
I prefer the European club system where parents are kept away from the whole process. Mostly drop off and pick up, then sit far away in the bleachers at games where they can't be heard as much.
 
MWN said:
Wildcat66,

Here is how it works:
1. Clubs/Leagues rent the fields from cities or private parties. The fields during those rental times are subject to the rules and regulations of Cal South, the respective Clubs/Leagues, and the City/Private party.

a. In the case of a public park, the areas outside those areas rented and controlled by the Club/League remain subject to the rules of the park, but inside the area rented, guests (including "dog walkers") are subject to all the rules as noted above and may be removed by representatives of Cal South, the League (CSL, SCDSL, Presidio, etc.), the Club (Coach, Manager, etc.) or the Agent appointed by Cal South, the League or the Club also known as the Referee.

b. Most contracts/rental agreements provide that the "entire grass" area is rented, which means that the folks holding little Jenny's 4th birthday party near the playground are violating the Club/League's space when they set up their jumper on the corner of the grass field 70 feet from the soccer field.

2. Folks in the vicinity of the fields (or on the areas rented) are subject to the rules regardless of whether they signed a form or not because for that time being, they are guests on property controlled by another (in legal speak they are "Licensees").

3. With respect to dogs, most leagues have a "no dogs" allowed policy. So, if you are in a public park walking your dog, I recommend you watch the games from a distance because once you bring the dog within the areas rented/leased by the Club/League you are now subject to their rules and they can politely ask you to remove your dog from the area, stop being abusive, etc..
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While ignorance of the law is no excuse for breaking it, ignorance of contract to which one is not a party certainly is.
 
Hüsker Dü said:
I prefer the European club system where parents are kept away from the whole process. Mostly drop off and pick up, then sit far away in the bleachers at games where they can't be heard as much.
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I prefer the South American model where coaches too are included in this except at half time and then have to return to the bleachers once the game restarts.
 
Just a Parent said:
I prefer the South American model where coaches too are included in this except at half time and then have to return to the bleachers once the game restarts.
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When it comes down to it pick-up games with no coaches or refs are a good way to develop playing skills, but not often do we allow our children to play unsupervised in this country . . . and God forbid with strangers (which we all increasingly are)!
 
espola said:
While ignorance of the law is no excuse for breaking it, ignorance of contract to which one is not a party certainly is.
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In the context of "property rights," the rules are different than standard contract law. Every participant at the park/field (except for the owner of the land) is acutely aware they are on a third party's property, be it private or public park. So the rules are a little different here. Public property is subject to various laws, codes, ordinances, etc., depending on Federal vs. State vs. County vs. City. Private land is subject to laws explicitly giving rights to the private landholder to exclude people from their land.

When you are on land that you don't own, you should already know that you can be asked to leave that land by those with superior property rights ... its the law.
 
Probably going to the local high school football game tonight. I wonder how manty spectators will be ejected due to their disagreement with a call. I know, it's a stadium no a soccer field and one or two fans are much more abusive than 500.
 
MWN said:
In the context of "property rights," the rules are different than standard contract law. Every participant at the park/field (except for the owner of the land) is acutely aware they are on a third party's property, be it private or public park. So the rules are a little different here. Public property is subject to various laws, codes, ordinances, etc., depending on Federal vs. State vs. County vs. City. Private land is subject to laws explicitly giving rights to the private landholder to exclude people from their land.

When you are on land that you don't own, you should already know that you can be asked to leave that land by those with superior property rights ... its the law.
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I agree. However, don't expect casual users to know that they are violating the license another party has acquired if that party makes no attempt to inform anyone. If I were in a situation where my legal use of a public space were threatened by another group who insisted that I must leave because "it's the law", I would ask them to call the cops.
 
wildcat66 said:
Probably going to the local high school football game tonight. I wonder how manty spectators will be ejected due to their disagreement with a call. I know, it's a stadium no a soccer field and one or two fans are much more abusive than 500.
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Of course no fan is ejected from a soccer game for disagreeing with a call. #strawman
But funny how you answer your own question knowing that the fans are so far away from the field at a HS football game, there is no comparison. And, I bet your game tonight will have security, off duty officers, administrators... so different.
 
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